Something better than being Mary, Jesus' Mother

[GraceSaves]

DualHunter,

Did not Jesus get baptised? Yes. Did he need to? No.

As for "needing a savior," we've covered that countless times. You merely pretend we don't have an answer. Your loss.

As for your verse....Jesus IS God, and he turned the finger to God the Father. Are you trying to say, by this, that Jesus was saying that he was NOT good? If you are, I ask you to show how. If not, then this tangeant is dead.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DualHunter,

Did not Jesus get baptised? Yes. Did he need to? No.

As for "needing a savior," we've covered that countless times. You merely pretend we don't have an answer. Your loss.

As for your verse....Jesus IS God, and he turned the finger to God the Father. Are you trying to say, by this, that Jesus was saying that he was NOT good? If you are, I ask you to show how. If not, then this tangeant is dead.

God bless,

Grant

As for Jesus' baptism, not only are you assuming that water brings forgiveness of sin, you are also ignoring the fact that baptism is not a sin offering.

Just as you said, Jesus is God. If God alone is good, then Jesus, who is God, is good. Mary who is not God does not qualify.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Dualhunter,

I would like to point out three things for you from your last post.

Mary stated her need for a savior

Part of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception includes the doctrine that this application of preservative redemption is due to the redemption gained by Christ on the cross. There is no denial that Mary has God as her Saviour. It's just that God saved her in an exalted fashion; don't be so jealous.

she gave a sin offering

And Jesus was baptized with John the Baptist's baptism of repentance. First, you need to defend how Jesus didn't need to repent even though he partook in this baptism, which symbolized conversion from sin to God.

Jesus said that only God is good (that excludes Mary by the way). And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. - Mark 10:18 NASB

What's your point? That (1) Jesus isn't good, (2) whoever isn't good has sinned, and (2) therefore Jesus has sinned? I'm missing your logic, or, rather, I'm pointing out your inconsistency.

yours in Christ,

Carson

[ October 30, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Dualhunter]

Being baptized is not repenting, the symbolism of baptism does not change the fact Jesus did not have to (nor did He) repent to go down into the water to be baptized by John.

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Jesus said that only God is good (that excludes Mary by the way). And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. - Mark 10:18 NASB

What's your point? That (1) Jesus isn't good, (2) whoever isn't good has sinned, and (2) therefore Jesus has sinned? I'm missing your logic, or, rather, I'm pointing out your inconsistency.

I already explained it, but here it is again:

Jesus is God. If God alone is good, then Jesus, who is God, is good. Mary who is not God does not qualify.

Adding to that to clarify in regards to your second point, the pre-fall creation was described as very good, it was not yet tainted by sin. After the fall, no human is good, God alone is good. As already mentioned, Jesus is God and therefore good.

 

[Johnv]

She was chosen because she had to be in the lineage of David in order to be the "Mother" of the Christ

Can you help me out? I can't find a reference in the Gospels to Mary's lineage. I've always been confused by the lineage, since lineage in Judaism is carried by the male, not the female.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Johnv:
She was chosen because she had to be in the lineage of David in order to be the "Mother" of the Christ

Can you help me out? I can't find a reference in the Gospels to Mary's lineage. I've always been confused by the lineage, since lineage in Judaism is carried by the male, not the female.

The following is a response to something Carson said on another thread, that makes a case for the geneology in Luke being Jesus' biological geneology (as opposed to His legal geneology as listed in Matthew) through the male ancestors of Mary:

Joseph's father was Jacob not Heli. Matthew having been a tax collector would most likely have focused on the the legal geneology of Jesus, the wording of the geneology as given by Matthew makes it clear that Jacob is Joseph's father. The geneology that Luke gives is not the same as Matthew, your comment suggests that the Catholic church believes that God inspired a contradiction. Luke is believed to have been a doctor and thus it would make sense for him to list the biological geneology of Jesus and therefore Mary's geneology. The wording allows for Heli to be Jesus' immediate male ancestor, both the "as was supposed, the son of Joseph" and the geneology starting with Heli are refering to Jesus, thus we conclude that Mary's father was Heli, not Joseph's, and that contrary to the beliefs of the Catholic church scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[Star]

I always liked the discussion of Mary not as a person but who she represents to me as I read scriptures. In the same manner Christ came and ascended into glory is the same manner he comes again to be glorified in us. Its the birthing process being born again. Him in us our hope of glory. Just as He was born of the Holy Spirit in Mary so also through the Spirit Christ is born in us. The Sword God promised would pierce her soul is the same sword that works within us. As she was blessed so also are we. Instead of deify her I try to see how she correlates to the Word of God and His wonderful works within us. Jesus said to His disciples they were like a woman in regards to the pains of childbirth, bringing forth a child and when her child is born they would be overjoyed, I interpret this as the joy of my own salvation in Christ. I suppose theres many ways to see it according to the light we've each been given but thank God He increases the light

In Him Kim

 

[Bro. Curtis]

To Carson, Grace saves, et al....

You post your links in vain. I have a KJV, and that is where I get my teachings, even the ones concerning Mary. If you have to use extra-biblical texts to prove your point, then you have nothing to stand on. The Bible is my authority, since it was written by God. Books by men, that contradict scripture, mean nothing to me. Human speculation is vanity. Mary confessed her need for a saviour in Luke 1:47. Jesus rebuked the one person in the Bible who tried to deify Mary. (Luke 11:27&28)

Why isn't the Bible good enough for you ?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Johnv:
She was chosen because she had to be in the lineage of David in order to be the "Mother" of the Christ

Can you help me out? I can't find a reference in the Gospels to Mary's lineage. I've always been confused by the lineage, since lineage in Judaism is carried by the male, not the female.

Mary's lineage is found in Luke 1:30-32. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David.

Joseph's lineage was through Solomon. Matthew 1:7-16. Keep in mind that Joseph *was not* Jesus' biological father. I'm sure you are aware of that.

MEE

 

[blackbird]

Where they one day layed Mary's body in the grave--lies a pile of bones! She ain't God--nor even close to God! One day she'll take her place at the Judgment Seat of Christ--she will be judged just like the rest of us and whatever is of wood, hay, and stubble will go up in a poof of smoke! Just like you and me! She'll stand along side the Saints of old and her knee will bow and her tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the church! She will not and has never shared in any of the Godship of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! To raise her up to any other level that would equal the Lord Jesus--is blasphemy and heresy!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

she gave a sin offering

And Jesus was baptized with John the Baptist's baptism of repentance. First, you need to defend how Jesus didn't need to repent even though he partook in this baptism, which symbolized conversion from sin to God.

You already answered the question, Carson. 'which symbolized conversion from sin to God'. If it is symbolic (doesn't this go against the catholic definition of baptism, BTW?), then it can be done only to show others to do it....symbolism works on many, many levels.

In Christ,
jason

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Where they one day layed Mary's body in the grave--lies a pile of bones! She ain't God--nor even close to God! One day she'll take her place at the Judgment Seat of Christ--she will be judged just like the rest of us and whatever is of wood, hay, and stubble will go up in a poof of smoke! Just like you and me! She'll stand along side the Saints of old and her knee will bow and her tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the church! She will not and has never shared in any of the Godship of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! To raise her up to any other level that would equal the Lord Jesus--is blasphemy and heresy!

Your friend,
Blackbird

Blackbird, now that is saying it like it is.

ROFL

MEE

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Jason,

You wrote, "You already answered the question, Carson. 'which symbolized conversion from sin to God'. If it is symbolic (doesn't this go against the catholic definition of baptism, BTW?)"

Jesus was baptized with John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance. It was symbolic and different from the Baptism of Jesus. Jesus' baptism gives the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 19:1ff.

then it can be done only to show others to do it....symbolism works on many, many levels.

Yes, that explains why Jesus was baptized, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Jesus was baptized with a baptism for repentance even though he didn't need it. So, in order to require Mary to have sin when she offers a sin offering is a requirement that, if applied here, would require Jesus to have sin if he is baptized with a baptism of repentance.

Therefore, the requirement is nullified by extension.

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "You post your links in vain. I have a KJV, and that is where I get my teachings, even the ones concerning Mary ... Why isn't the Bible good enough for you?"

Posting a generalized catch-all reply like the one above without engaging in the specifics of a dialogue that is already in motion takes us nowhere. I urge you to respond to my post above, which is a reply to your own. Dialogue is a conversation, not a monologue.

The Bible is good enough for me, and it isn't good enough for me. It is good enough for me in the sense that it is God's Word, but it isn't good enough for me in that Christ founded a Church, not a Bible, and God's Word isn't restricted to your KJV, but it includes authentic Tradition. The Bible must also be interpreted correctly. The link that I posted "in vain" above shows, from your KJV, how Mary is blessed precisely because of her faith. But, of course, you first need to stop chanting Fundamentalist mantras and listen to me. As long as you fail to listen, we will go nowhere, and both of us are wasting our time here.

God bless,

Carson

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi blackbird,

I thought I would comment on your last post.

Where they one day layed Mary's body in the grave--lies a pile of bones!

And after Mary died, she was assumed into heaven as Jesus' Queen Mother where she reigns in heaven alongside her son. Solomon foreshadowed Jesus in numerous ways, and his mother's position in the Davidic dynasty foreshadows Mary's role in heaven. Cf. 1 Kings 2:19

She ain't God--nor even close to God!

Mary is not God, but she is in the presence of God presently.

One day she'll take her place at the Judgment Seat of Christ--she will be judged just like the rest of us and whatever is of wood, hay, and stubble will go up in a poof of smoke!

Mary has already undergone her particular judgment, and she currently reigns from heaven as our Queen Mother. She didn't have any wood, hay, or stubble to be burned up because she was sinless during her earthly life.

Just like you and me!

Yes, we will be judged like Mary was. The General Judgment at the end of time will judge those still alive and those who have already been judged at the moment of their death. Those who have already been judged will be given the same judgment.

She'll stand along side the Saints of old and her knee will bow and her tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the church!

She's been confessing that ever since her "fiat" at the Annunication.

She will not and has never shared in any of the Godship of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

You are correct. Mary is not part of the Trinity.

To raise her up to any other level that would equal the Lord Jesus--is blasphemy and heresy!

Mary could never be equal to Jesus. She is not fully God. Though, she currently partakes in the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4).

Blessings,

Carson

 

[Australian Baptist Student]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi blackbird,

And after Mary died, she was assumed into heaven as Jesus' Queen Mother where she reigns in heaven alongside her son. Solomon foreshadowed Jesus in numerous ways, and his mother's position in the Davidic dynasty foreshadows Mary's role in heaven. Cf. 1 Kings 2:19
Carson

Hi Carson, as I wrote to Ed, this is a bit of a shakey argument. Bathsheba does sit on a throne and petition Solomon, so far so good for your analogy. Solomon however rejects her petition and orders the death of the one she petitioned for. There goes the analogy. The only other queen mum I could find was Athaliah, who murdered the royal princes and was ordered killed by the Godly priest Jehoiada.
It looked good from a distance, but did not bear close examination.
Do take care, Colin

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "You post your links in vain. I have a KJV, and that is where I get my teachings, even the ones concerning Mary ... Why isn't the Bible good enough for you?"

Posting a generalized catch-all reply like the one above without engaging in the specifics of a dialogue that is already in motion takes us nowhere. I urge you to respond to my post above, which is a reply to your own. Dialogue is a conversation, not a monologue.

The Bible is good enough for me, and it isn't good enough for me. It is good enough for me in the sense that it is God's Word, but it isn't good enough for me in that Christ founded a Church, not a Bible, and God's Word isn't restricted to your KJV, but it includes authentic Tradition. The Bible must also be interpreted correctly. The link that I posted "in vain" above shows, from your KJV, how Mary is blessed precisely because of her faith. But, of course, you first need to stop chanting Fundamentalist mantras and listen to me. As long as you fail to listen, we will go nowhere, and both of us are wasting our time here.

God bless,

Carson

You are wasting your time, I'm doing my Christian duty by refuting your claims that Mary has anything at all to do with salvation. You have failed to prove it, from scripture, and until you do, you will get those kinds of posts from me.

Get used to it.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Colin,

Mary is foreshadowed by the office of the Queen Mother. In Hebrew, in Jewish Tradition, she is referred to as the "Gebirah" or "Great Lady". 1 Kings 2:19 is a Biblical instance of this office, which is prevalent throughout the Davidic dynasty. Whether Solomon, Hezekiah, or any other Davidic Kings in historical instances, granted the Gebirah's petitions is frivolous. This is like looking to David's act of adultery to confirm that Jesus must be a sinner or like looking to Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines in order to require Jesus, the Son of David, to have just as many women in his lifetime.

Hi Curtis,

If I pray for a hardened sinner, and because of my prayers, the hardened sinner is converted, did I have anything to do with his/her conversion?

My answer is "yes", and because Mary prays for us from heaven for us, she has a part in our salvation. I know that you disagree with me, so you don't have to post an example of your denial of this act of faith on my part. I simply want to show you "how" Mary "would" play a part in our salvation "if" she is our spiritual mother in Heaven (John 19:26-27).

Blessings,

Carson

 

[Australian Baptist Student]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Colin,

Mary is foreshadowed by the office of the Queen Mother. In Hebrew, in Jewish Tradition, she is referred to as the "Gebirah" or "Great Lady". 1 Kings 2:19 is a Biblical instance of this office, which is prevalent throughout the Davidic dynasty. Whether Solomon, Hezekiah, or any other Davidic Kings in historical instances, granted the Gebirah's petitions is frivolous. This is like looking to David's act of adultery to confirm that Jesus must be a sinner or like looking to Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines in order to require Jesus, the Son of David, to have just as many women in his lifetime.
Carson

Hi Carson, how are you? Let us say the passage had gone diferently, Soloman replying to his mother, "well, I was going to have him killed, but because you ask it, I will pardon him". Would the example then be frivolous? Be honest, it would support your claims wonderfully, and obviously you would cite it with gusto. It is only frivolous because it goes against your doctrine. The facts remain that the only Biblical examples of queen mums doing things or requesting things are bad. Its hard to build a Biblical doctrine out of that.
Have fun, Colin

 

[Australian Baptist Student]

"Mary is foreshadowed by the office of the Queen Mother."

Hi again Carson, just me with some further thoughts.
We know that all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit for our instruction. You must therefore ask yourself, why did the Holy Spirit choose to only mention the queen mum in negative examples? What was he instructing us throught this? If the Holy Spirit had wished to forshadow the intercessory role of Mary in the OT (according to your understanding), would he have chosen to only record such a ministry in a negative example? Do we learn from the OT that it is good to petition the queen mum? No, the only example of this happening in inspired Scripture ends in the failure of the intercession and the death of the petitioner. From this we deduce that the Holy Spirit is in favour of prayers to Mary????????? This story of rejection and death is how he chose to forshadow it? You choose a difficult argument to defend.
We all agree that we can pray directly to Jesus, that he lives to interceed for us, that the glory of the New Covenant is its personal relationship with the creator of heaven and earth. Why would we want to establish a lesser intermediary, unless like the Israelites of old, we flee from shinning faces and plead that we do not wish to hear God's voice. Worship God, seek intimacy with Him, spend time in prayer with Him, and Mary, woman of faith that she is, will become unimportant.
Take care, Colin

 

[blackbird]

You know! I got to thinking! Mary, the mother of Jesus later on birthed several other sons and daughters--all of whom mocked and ridiculed their half brother, Jesus. If (and I mean, if) Mary was in a sinless state when she birthed Jesus--she must have had a "turn for the worse" after that--because the others weren't all that kind and respectful of Jesus--until their latter years at least. For a woman to do such a bang up job raising Jesus--she sure did flub it with the others! Just a thought! I'm sure there will be a comment or two!

Your friend,
Blackbird