Something I noticed about pentacostals

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ACTS 2:38 REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

If you believe this to be so truly and figuratively speaking of water baptism then why doesn't everyone receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as soon as they are baptized with water? Did Peter leave something out? Did he lay hands on all 3000? Did they speak in tongues?

The only signs recorded were preformed by the apostles, no one else.

43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles

Peter said if you did those things you would receive the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't everyone then receive the Holy Spirit upon coming out of the water? Is that how it happens in your church?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

If you believe this to be so truly and figuratively speaking of water baptism then why doesn't everyone receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as soon as they are baptized with water? Did Peter leave something out? Did he lay hands on all 3000? Did they speak in tongues?

Very good question Lorelei the bible says you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "Shall" is future tense. It does not say repent be baptized in the name of Jesus christ for the remission of sins so that you have the Holy Ghost. If it were so easy to have as you say then then everyone in acts 8 would not have had to wait on it.

43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles

Peter said if you did those things you would receive the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't everyone then receive the Holy Spirit upon coming out of the water? Is that how it happens in your church? [/QUOTE]

I dont know why, but All i can do is dance around with a silly grin on my face b/c I know that it is real. I dont have to understand how my car runs when I get in it, the only thing I need to understand is how to drive it. Likewise with the holy ghost you dont have to understand everything about it to receive it all you have to do is ask for it. God is not going to give his spirit out to someone who does not want it. If you want to believe and stop there thats someone's on problem, but if the bible tells us that we need to repent after believing are you going to not repent? if the bible tells us to be baptized in the Name of Jesus are you not going to be baptized? If the bible tells us that God promised his Spirit to those that believed as the Scripture hath said are you not going to tarry for it?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
When we see the words "in the Name of" in the bible we must understand what is being said. There is no magic power in pronouncing the Name Jesus. When we see "in the Name of" we must understand it in the context of authority. Anybody old enough to remember the old "Keystone Cops" serials? "Stop in the name of the law!" Nobody in their right mind would think the cops name was "Law." He was making a statement of authority! "The authority of the law commands you to stop!" The same is true of the bible. "In the Name of" is a statement of authority. I was baptized because Jesus, in the bible, commands me to be baptized. I was baptized "in the Name of the Lord" - that is, because He has the authority to tell me to do so. That is what Matthew 28:18 and following is all about. Verse 18 states with, "All power (IE authority) is given unto to me . . . Go ye therefore . . ."

When the believers in Acts were baptised "in the Name of Jesus" they were simply saying "because Jesus has authority to command us to be baptized, we are obeying His command." To try to make that verse into a "baptismal formual" is false doctrine and indicative of ignorance of the bible. (2 Cor 2:14?)

Ok so when you pray and at the end of your prayers to have to give thanks to all three people or what? The bible says that whatsoever you do in word or in deed do all in the Name of Jesus Christ given thanks to God the Father.

Acts 4:12 For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. What Name is that referring to.

When THe Apostles healed the man in acts at the pool, who was begging for alms, why did they not say "arise in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost"? B/c there is no athority in those titles. Its all about the Name. Its all about the Name. Its all about Jesus, Everything in the Bible is all about JESUS, Its all about JEsus. We dont rebuke in the Name of the Father, SOn and Holy Ghost. We say I rebuke you in the Name of Jesus. WE pray in Jesus Name. WHy is it that you will do everything in the Name of Jesus except baptize. If Jesus is so important why do anything other than what he said in Matt 28:19 Why do you insist on repeating what he said, Why not be obidient and fullfill the will. Baptize them in the Name of the Father, (Whats that NAME?) and the Name of the Son (whats that Name) and of the Holy Ghost (whats that Name)

You want to know why the Name is so impotant? The Name does hold the athority when you speak the Name of Jesus it get everyones attention. Go to a Marylin Manson concert and Yell out GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD. You know what the responce would be? Not a single soul would care, but take the same person go their and start talking about the Name of Jesus. You are gonig to get heads that turn, you going to offend some people, b/c when you speak that Name you have the athority and People will start to listen.

And I will close with this. The bible says that At the Name of Jesus, at the mention of his name, every tongue going to confess and every knee is going to bow. Not b/c he is some second person in the God head that gets his orders from daddy, but b/c he is daddy himself.

Daddy dosent share his Glory with another, There is no saviour beside daddy, Read Isaiah, Daddy does alot of talkin about how he is the only one. Read how it says that there will be a son born who will be called the everlasting Father, the Mighty God..........

I know who My God is, I know that when I call upon the Name of Jesus ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. I have the athority to spend the money in my bank account but if I send someone to go get money out and they say my uncle told me to get some money, Well who is your uncle, You know he is Jerrys Son, No who is he, what is his Name. You cant get anything with out that athority.

God BLess

Sorry it was so choppy but I am in a hurry

 

[GrannyGumbo]

There's one lady near me who has prayed earnestly for years to 'get the Holy Ghost' because-she has NOT 'spoken in tongues'. She seems so sad. And I still would like to know about those who CAN'T talk...what happens to them? Also, when one of 'their' missionaries go overseas, how come they have 'to study' the language???

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
If the "name of Jesus" is the correct baptismal formula (denying the words of Christ in Matthew 28) then why is it lacking?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Acts 8:16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[3] the name of the Lord Jesus

Why couldn't Philip baptize them with the Holy Spirit? Why wasn't this baptism considered complete? Were they missing something???

Peter said if they repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus they would receive the Holy Ghost. Why did they have to wait? Why couldn't they demand it and seek it before Peter came?

~Lorelei

PS. I have a secret, there is more to the Bible then Acts chapter 2:38. Read it all, it will make alot more sense!</font>[/QUOTE]

If the "name of Jesus" is the correct baptismal formula (denying the words of Christ in Matthew 28) then why is it lacking?

How is it denying the words of CHrist? See thats where the trinitarian formula causes a contridiction. We can see that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. THat is why they baptized in the Name of Jesus. They fulfilled the words of Jesus Christ by saying the Name of Jesus Christ.

They knew who Jesus Was they Knew he was the Father in carnate

God bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

I dont know why, but All i can do is dance around with a silly grin on my face b/c I know that it is real. I dont have to understand how my car runs when I get in it, the only thing I need to understand is how to drive it. Likewise with the holy ghost you dont have to understand everything about it to receive it all you have to do is ask for it.

Don't try to understand it just accept it, right? So how do you know that what you have accepted is not a demonic spirit? If you have no understanding of the Scripture in these things (which you just admitted) your tongue-speaking may very well be from another spirit, not the Holy Spirit. How do you know? Don't try to understand it. Just accept it. That is Satan's theology. Total passivity. Don't think. Just accept it.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

You studied Pentecostalism, but cannot spell it. This is instructive.

Also, you seem to think that all Pentecostals are Oneness. This is not so. In fact, not all of us are even in Pentecostal churches...

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Why do folks always nit-pick about spelling, etc? [sigh]... Yes, I've also heard there are some Pentecostals that call themselves "classics" & they believe in the tri-unity of God. And, you're right, all Onenesses aren't Pentecostals; many a well-known gospel singer are Oneness, as is some popular charismatic preachers & that famous'Weigh-Down'(wt.loss) lady. It's infectious!

 

[Wayne]

Hi my name is Wayne & I am new here to this board.I see someone said"You must be born of WATER & of the Spirit.I don't necessarily believe that this water is water baptism.There is no MUST in water baptism but there is a MUST in being in water in the womb.This is confirmed afterwards when he says that which is born of the flesh is flesh & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.We have all been there because there is no other way to have a physical birth.I think we should be baptized after salvation but I don't think not being baptized is going to send you to hell because if it would then the thief on the cross would not have made it.How about men who may have been saved on a battle field & then got killed before they were baptized,etc.As far as works in salvation goes we are saved unto good works but not saved because of good works."Not by works of righteousness which we have done..."And he also said"For by grace are you saved through FAITH,and THAT(the faith)not of yourselves,IT is the gift of God.NOT of works lest ANY man should boast.Also as far as receiving the Holy Spirit a long time after salvation the Bible says "If we have NOT the Spirit of Christ we are none of his"So we must receive the Spirit of God at salvation or we are not His.Also to GrannyGumbo,you said you don't know anything in a previous message.Well I wish I knew about half of the stuff you don't know,haha.I know you have been studying your Bible a lot.God bless all the bros.& sisters,
Wayne

 

[tyndale1946]

Wayne you are right if you are not saved before you are baptised you go in a dry devil and come out a wet one. Baptism essential in taking up your cross and walking with the Lord in obedience. The only baptism that will ever get you to heaven is the baptism of the Holy Ghost with fire that only the Lord can administer to his blood bought children. If you are not saved by the grace of God then you are not saved and once saved you can never fall from that grace... Brother Glen

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Very good question Lorelei the bible says you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "Shall" is future tense.

The NIV Reads "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". You will or shall receive it. Any future tense implied would be because they had not repented and believed. Don't read too much into one word to make your point.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
It does not say repent be baptized in the name of Jesus christ for the remission of sins so that you have the Holy Ghost. If it were so easy to have as you say then then everyone in acts 8 would not have had to wait on it.

The only reason they waited in Acts 8 is because it was the first time the Holy Spirit was dispensed upon the Samaritans. If it is as you say, why couldn't Philip do it? Why did they have to wait for Peter? (You never ever answer that)

Originally posted by ONENESS:

I dont know why, but All i can do is dance around with a silly grin on my face b/c I know that it is real.

So what in the world did God leave us His Word for? We would all have the Holy Spirit enter us and make us break the commands the Holy Spirit told someone else to write anyway? Why do you keep that book around if all you are going to do is dance around and laugh in it's face???

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I dont have to understand how my car runs when I get in it, the only thing I need to understand is how to drive it. Likewise with the holy ghost you dont have to understand everything about it to receive it all you have to do is ask for it.

Please point me to the verse that says we are to ask for the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
God is not going to give his spirit out to someone who does not want it.

Who are you to tell me I don't want it!?!? I don't desire the experience because I do have it! Who are you to tell me that I don't? I have to believe your experience, but you refuse to believe mine, based on what? Implied verses taken out of context. We are judging you by scriptures that tell us that you are not practicing the gift how it was intended. You are saying that because I don't have a gift that not everyone has that I don't have the Holy Spirit. THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT!. Your pastor may say it, but it doesn't wash with the word of God.

If the Bereans took the time to question Paul and make sure what he was teaching was the truth, shouldn't you do the same? The Bereans were called Noble. Paul said get off the milk of the Word and get into the Meat. He didn't say let your pastor dig into the meat and keep feeding you like babes.

Acts 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

If you say that Jesus is now the name of God, then why did Paul keep referring to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit at different times. Didn't he realize they were all the name of Jesus now?

2 Corinthians 13:14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Why didn't he just say Jesus????

~Lorelei

 

[susanpet]

Lorelei, good point.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Wayne, I really appreciate your comments & thank you for speaking out. One pastor who was sort of helping us before our son got in it so deep, pulled up stakes & skidaddled(sp?). "The water in the womb is exactly what I tell them "the water" is & yes, they will argue that one...just like they do all other crucial scripture. I've had to put up with having God made fun of (like some of their remarks made around here); He is ridiculed 'til it ain't even funny.I would NEVER speak in such a way about my Saviour! (That's one way I know they are false, is their lack of respect for God & His Word). There are things I've had to learn that I sure could have gone without knowing-haha.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Do all Pentecostals believe that you must speak in tongues to be saved or are there groups that do not?

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" (1 Cor 12:30)

The apostle asks the rhetorical question with 'no' as the intended response, yet some still teach that all must speak in or tongues to be saved.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

All the ones in my area say if you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the Holy Ghost, & you aren't saved, if you're not baptized Acts 2:38.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

I dont know why, but All i can do is dance around with a silly grin on my face b/c I know that it is real. I dont have to understand how my car runs when I get in it, the only thing I need to understand is how to drive it. Likewise with the holy ghost you dont have to understand everything about it to receive it all you have to do is ask for it.

Don't try to understand it just accept it, right? So how do you know that what you have accepted is not a demonic spirit? If you have no understanding of the Scripture in these things (which you just admitted) your tongue-speaking may very well be from another spirit, not the Holy Spirit. How do you know? Don't try to understand it. Just accept it. That is Satan's theology. Total passivity. Don't think. Just accept it.
DHK</font>

DHK, very good question. I have not admitted that I dont understand the Scripture on tongues, I was just saying that I dont understand everything in the bible.

How do I know that what I have is not demonic? Well lets see

22. Then was brought * unto him one possessed with a devil * , blind, and dumb: and he healed * him,insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake * and saw * .

23. And all the people were amazed * , and said * , Is * not this the son of David?

24. But when the Pharisees heard * it, they said * , This fellow doth * not cast out * devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25. And Jesus knew * their thoughts, and said * unto them, Every kingdom divided * against itself is brought to desolation * ; and every city or house divided * against itself shall * not stand * :

26. And if Satan cast out * Satan, he is divided * against himself; how shall * then his kingdom stand * ?

27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out * devils, by whom do your children cast them out * ? therefore they shall be * your judges.

28. But if I cast out * devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come * unto you.

29. Or else how can * one enter * into a strong man's house, and spoil * his goods, except he first bind * the strong man? and then he will spoil * his house.

30. He that is * not with me is * against me; and he that gathereth * not with me scattereth abroad * .

31. Wherefore I say * unto you,All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven * unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall * not be forgiven * unto men.

32. And whosoever speaketh * a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven * him: but whosoever speaketh * against the Holy Ghost,it shall * not be forgiven * him,neither in this world, neither in the world to come * .

33. Either make * the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make * the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known * by his fruit.

34. O generation of vipers, how can ye * , being * evil, speak * good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh * .

35. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth * good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth * evil things.

36. But I say * unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak * , they shall give * account thereof in the day of judgment.

25. And Jesus knew * their thoughts, and said * unto them, Every kingdom divided * against itself is brought to desolation * ; and every city or house divided * against itself shall * not stand * :

26. And if Satan cast out * Satan, he is divided * against himself; how shall * then his kingdom stand * ?

33. Either make * the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make * the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known * by his fruit.

Satan would never do anything that would make us closer to God. Satan cant give peace. Satan cant make you love God more and even if he could he would not.

When you have tears running down your face and you are speaking in tongues their is something there that surpasses anything you could imagine. And when God filled me with his spirit for the first time I remember How everything seemed so New. I had never felt so close to God in my life. And again satan will not do anything to make you closer to the one he hates

[ May 21, 2002, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
You studied Pentecostalism, but cannot spell it. This is instructive.

Also, you seem to think that all Pentecostals are Oneness. This is not so. In fact, not all of us are even in Pentecostal churches...

We all noticed the same thing, He even told me to get a spell check b/c I made a typo on devil.

LOL but we thought we would not bring up the argument again, but since you did thought i would comment.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Wayne:
Hi my name is Wayne & I am new here to this board.I see someone said"You must be born of WATER & of the Spirit.I don't necessarily believe that this water is water baptism.There is no MUST in water baptism but there is a MUST in being in water in the womb.This is confirmed afterwards when he says that which is born of the flesh is flesh & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.We have all been there because there is no other way to have a physical birth.I think we should be baptized after salvation but I don't think not being baptized is going to send you to hell because if it would then the thief on the cross would not have made it.How about men who may have been saved on a battle field & then got killed before they were baptized,etc.As far as works in salvation goes we are saved unto good works but not saved because of good works."Not by works of righteousness which we have done..."And he also said"For by grace are you saved through FAITH,and THAT(the faith)not of yourselves,IT is the gift of God.NOT of works lest ANY man should boast.Also as far as receiving the Holy Spirit a long time after salvation the Bible says "If we have NOT the Spirit of Christ we are none of his"So we must receive the Spirit of God at salvation or we are not His.Also to GrannyGumbo,you said you don't know anything in a previous message.Well I wish I knew about half of the stuff you don't know,haha.I know you have been studying your Bible a lot.God bless all the bros.& sisters,
Wayne

Wayne nice to have you here. If you will continue to read on through the bible you will see in the book of acts that it is not referring to the amniautic (sp?) fluid of the physical birth when it speaks or being born of the Water. Notice in verse three is says "Ye must be born AGAIN. In the book of acts you will see where people were being born again of the water and the spirit everyday.

ex. Acts 2:38

Repent

Baptisim in the Name of Jesus = Water birth.

Holy Ghost = Spirit birth

take the man on the cross that you asked about. here you have a very unique situation. The dispensation of Grace was not in effect until Jesus Died. This man on the cross was still under the old testament law. B/c Jesus had not yet died.

Take the men on the battle field for example, If they are really gonig to want to come to repentance before they die, then either God will make away or he want. And when they die, will they go to heaven? Im not really sure. I can never say, but what I can say is that we will be held accountable for what we know. And if you see that you should do something and do not then you will be held accountable for that.

 

[Lorelei]

Pentecostals vary widely just as baptists and most others do. There are some that you say you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved, there are some that think tongues can be taught, there is a wide variety of belief.

Some of those who say you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved, still teach a second blessing baptism. But they think you can get to heaven without it. I then point them to the verses that say if you don't have the Spirit you are not saved.

The reason I mainly focus on Oneness pentecostalism is because that is what my family is. I have actually only been studying the Oneness part of their theology for a short time.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

First you assume that because you feel you are praising God then that is pleasing to Him. If the Spirit that is within you is making you break the commands that Paul wrote, then that is not pleasing to God.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit was come to teach us about Jesus, not about Himself. The Holy Spirit should be helping us to edify the body of believers, not ourselves. When you focus so much on the wonderful feeling you have, you aren't focusing on what we are instructed to do. Die to yourself, pick up your cross, not feel good and do nothing more productive to edify the body and reach others for Christ. The power of the Holy Spirit should do just that, it should make us bold witnesses, not bold tongue speakers locked up within a church that if anyone did come in they would say you were insane.

You can't say it is not of Satan because you feel that you are closer to God. We are warned that Satan does what?

2 Corinthians 11:4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

See above, those false apostles were masquerading as angels of light. They were pretending to be apostles. They were using the name of Christ, they were saying things about God. Did that make it right? NO Paul even said they would receive a different spirit and they didn't care! Why do you think Paul warned them about this?

Yes, this was that Corinthian church again, the one that was unruly when it came to practicing thier gift of tongues, just as your church is doing today.

We are told to test the Spirits for a reason.

1 John 4:1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world

Now, how do you know it is from God? You must test them! Testing the spirit with the scriptures will show you if it is of God or not. Does the spirit within you compel you to break the commands of the Lord?? Then it is not of God! No excuses!!!

The Spirit also convinces you to believe a gospel that was not preached. You follow after the Oneness theology and the false plan of salvation that makes you trust in the water and holiness more then the blood of Christ. That is not what the Bible says frees us from our sins.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
take the man on the cross that you asked about. here you have a very unique situation. The dispensation of Grace was not in effect until Jesus Died. This man on the cross was still under the old testament law. B/c Jesus had not yet died.

Read what you just said! The dispensation did not happen until the day of Pentecost!! Amen! I am glad that you finally see why those in Acts believed first and then got the Spirit. Not because that was the plan but because they had to wait until Jesus died, rose again and ascended into heaven. He told them to wait in Acts and upon that day he dispensed his Spirit among the Jews. In chapter 8 he dispensed it upon the Samaritans and in Chapter 10 He dispensed it upon the Gentiles. Once the Spirit had been dispensed, it no longer needed to wait, Grace is now effective!!!

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Take the men on the battle field for example, If they are really gonig to want to come to repentance before they die, then either God will make away or he want. And when they die, will they go to heaven? Im not really sure. I can never say, but what I can say is that we will be held accountable for what we know. And if you see that you should do something and do not then you will be held accountable for that.

You can say! Either the blood is applied or it is not. You say that the blood isn't applied until water baptism, but in Acts 10 the people received the Spirit before the Water. You can't have the Spirit without the regeneration. How did they get it? God makes special cases with special people? I think not. God's plan doesn't change for anyone. That is why the blood is applied the moment you believe. There are no works to get it there.

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard

~Lorelei

 

[donnA]

all Onenesses aren't Pentecostals; many a well-known gospel singer are Oneness, as is some popular charismatic preachers & that famous'Weigh-Down'(wt.loss) lady. It's infectious

She isn't oneness or pentecostal, shes ex-church of Christ, now running her own cultic church. Her beliefs are much closer to JW's.