Something I noticed about pentacostals

[AITB]

Originally posted by katie:
AITB

I'm going to take a look at at those. I was in Wd last year, and when I found out about it I quit, after much prayer, and not giving up I convinced my pastor to stip the others from meeting in the church. I have collected a lot of info on WD/Gwen and continue to recieve their newsletters for my collection.

Hi katie!

You might want to investigate Thin Within.

When I was more 'in the loop' on Weigh Down stuff, I know that Thin Within was working to get their own program out and a lot of people who were leaving Weigh Down were interested in finding out more about TW.

Thin Within's Statement of Faith will probably match your own beliefs much better than Weigh Down's; and also it sounds like TW emphasizes grace. Whereas Weigh Down emphasizes obedience so much...that, well, you know, don't you? You've been in it; you know what it's like!

You will notice that Weigh Down's site is sponsored by Remnant Fellowship Churches now...you can read about them if you want to.

Neither site seems to have a clearly posted summary of doctrine. (I mean, out of Weigh Down and Remnant Fellowships; Thin Within does)

[there are links in the above text under some of the names of the organizations...they don't show up very well in the colors this board uses but they are there!

]

[And...I didn't see a rule against the above links...which I did out of courtesy to them rather than to indicate any endorsement of them, of course...I believe the best way to find out about something is to go to the source as well as listening to what others say about it]

[ May 22, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Wrong, child.

You've accused me of taking things out of context before; you didn't prove it then, and you didn't offer one shred of evidence to support your accusation now.

Here's what scripture says: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1 Cor 14:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Now, let's look at what Brian's pastor wrote:

Yes there are times ( not all times) that we at Landmark enjoy the total engulfing presence of the Holy Ghost, and as a result the whole congregation will respond with tongues or a shout or weeping or any number of things that please the Lord....

many times when the spirit is flowing through a spirit filled congregation people will worship and tongues will be spoken, but when this happens it is in total harmony with the word.

Now, how am I taking his words--"this is in total harmony with the gospel"--out of context?

The gospel--God's inspired word, and therefore HIS Word, HIS instructions, HIS commandments--says if anyone speaks in an unknown tongue, let it be by two or at the most three. That archaic language we know as King James english says "and that by course"; this means "one at a time." The passage also says "and let one interpret...but if there be no interpreter, let him (the one speaking in tongues) keep silent."

By his own words, this pastor allows violation of these instructions, which means he doesn't care what scripture says.

So MEE, you can childishly say I'm taking things out of context all you want--but the burden of proving it is on you....</font>[/QUOTE]Don when we are in service and Tongues of interpretation go forth, it is so quite that you could hear a pin drop. Then one person will usually give the tongues and then someone else will give the interpretation.

During this time, there is one person doing the speaking in tongues and only one person that will follow with the interpretation. During this time if there is no interpretation one should stop speaking in tongues outloudly and speak to God in silent.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:
Wrong, child.

You've accused me of taking things out of context before; you didn't prove it then, and you didn't offer one shred of evidence to support your accusation now.

Here's what scripture says:

1 Cor 14:
19

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don, I'm very familar as to what those scriptures say. If you had paid more attention to what the Pastor had to say instead of posting only part of what he said then maybe it wouldn't have been taken out of context. You've made what he said a lie by not understanding 1 Cor. 14.

Then again you don't understand "speaking in tongues" and all that goes with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By his own words, this pastor allows violation of these instructions, which means he doesn't care what scripture says.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don, I'm sure he cares very much what the scriptures hve to say. Why else would he have been so kind as to try to answer your questions?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So MEE, you can childishly say I'm taking things out of context all you want--but the burden of proving it is on you....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmmm...I didn't see anything childish about my response, but then agian you don't take anything we say correctly.

MEE

 

[Don]

And there you go with the accusations again...and still nothing to support them.

Wouldn't that be considered..."childish"?....

Sorry, MEE; I just realized that you posted some other stuff inside the quoted area.

Don, I'm very familar as to what those scriptures say. If you had paid more attention to what the Pastor had to say instead of posting only part of what he said then maybe it wouldn't have been taken out of context. You've made what he said a lie by not understanding 1 Cor. 14.

You state you're very familiar with what those scriptures say; so what you're saying is that you don't care about the "by two or at most three" statement?

Then again you don't understand "speaking in tongues" and all that goes with it.

Isn't that exactly what Brian's pastor stated? Since I don't speak in tongues, I don't understand it?

Seems like that's the catchphrase for tongues-speaking people....

Don, I'm sure he cares very much what the scriptures hve to say. Why else would he have been so kind as to try to answer your questions?

Point 1: I gave the scriptures in question to him.
Point 2: He failed to answer why the scriptures say one thing (by two or at most three, and with an interpreter, or else keep silence), but he allows his congregation to practice another.
Point 3: He used a verse out of context (Quench not the Spirit) in order to justify allowing his congregation to practice something other than what scripture instructs.
Point 4: When pressed, he resorted to "you don't speak in tongues, so you can't understand."
Point 5: He gave every indication that he will continue to allow his congregation to violate the instructions that you state you're very familiar with.
Conclusion: He doesn't care what scripture says.

[ May 22, 2002, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Don]

Brian, let me post your own pastor's words again:

Yes there are times ( not all times) that we at Landmark enjoy the total engulfing presence of the Holy Ghost, and as a result the whole congregation will respond with tongues or a shout or weeping or any number of things that please the Lord....

Now, your post just contradicted that, and said this doesn't happen--even though you admitted in another thread that it does, and your pastor says it does.

Which is it? Does it happen or not?

[ May 22, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Brian, let me post your own pastor's words again: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes there are times ( not all times) that we at Landmark enjoy the total engulfing presence of the Holy Ghost, and as a result the whole congregation will respond with tongues or a shout or weeping or any number of things that please the Lord....

Now, your post just contradicted that, and said this doesn't happen--even though you admitted in another thread that it does, and your pastor says it does.

Which is it? Does it happen or not?</font>[/QUOTE]Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.

But when tongues of interpretation go forth, there is a silence that you cannot imagine. As someone gives the tongues another will intrepret after the tongues have gone forth. Like I said before It is totally silent during this time. After the interpretaion has gone forth, almost everyone in the buidling will start to weep in the presence of the Lord. There is such an anointing there that breaks all yokes. And that truely edifyes the Church.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been baptized in the Name of Jesus yet?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe I've answered that question before: Yes.

How can you say that you have been baptized in the Name of Jesus when you said that you were baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Now were you or were you not baptized according to the commandment of Peter in Acts 10

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
[QB]

Originally posted by Don:

Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.

But when tongues of interpretation go forth, there is a silence that you cannot imagine. As someone gives the tongues another will intrepret after the tongues have gone forth. Like I said before It is totally silent during this time. After the interpretaion has gone forth, almost everyone in the buidling will start to weep in the presence of the Lord. There is such an anointing there that breaks all yokes. And that truely edifyes the Church.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is exactly what happens when tongues and interpretations takes place and it is done decently and in order. Good explanation Brian!

MEE

 

[susanpet]

I still see where some think that you can "earn your salvation by works". The works come in after you are saved. Salvation is a free gift. And anyone trying to get it another way is the same as a thief and a robber.
I am reminded of this scripture, LUKE CHAPTER 18- VERSES 9-14.

I am sure you all are familiar with it. It is about a certain Pharisee who who was bragging about his good works and a publican who only said " God be merciful to me a sinner".
The publican went down to his house more justified than the Pharisee.

God is more pleased with a humble confession of sin than a self-righteous attitude that they are helping God to attain their salvation.
If a person doesn't have the Holy Ghost before he is baptized, how in the world does God answer their prayers. Because it says without the Spirit you are none of His. If you don't have His spirit your father is the devil. So if someone is seeking the Holy Ghost and don't have it yet, wouldn't they still belong to Satan? So then it would seem that a sinner is seeking the Holy Ghost. How could you go and worship God without The Holy Ghost? You either have it or you don't. You are either saved or you are not. All thru the Bible faith is what brought about righteousness.
This is the way I see it.

In Christ and bought by the blood
Susan

 

[Don]

How can you say that you have been baptized in the Name of Jesus when you said that you were baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Now were you or were you not baptized according to the commandment of Peter in Acts 10

Is not Jesus the Father? Is He not the Son? Is He not the Holy Spirit? If He is, and the person who baptized me stated "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost," then how can you say that I haven't been baptized in His name?

Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.

That's what I'm talking about, Brian. Either your entire congregation is all speaking in tongues at one time, or they're not.

What you and your pastor have admitted is that there are times when you do it biblically--one at a time (even though neither admitted whether you keep it to two or at most three)--AND times when you do not (i.e., by two or at most three, and that by course, and with an interpreter).

Why do you allow the times that it is not biblical? For that, I still have not received an answer.

 

[Don]

This is exactly what happens when tongues and interpretations takes place and it is done decently and in order. Good explanation Brian!

"Decently and in good order" doesn't explain his first statement, MEE: "Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together."

Would you care to explain that one? In light of the specific instructions Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, gave us? (let it be by two, or at most three, and that by course; and let there be an interpreter)

YOU, my dear girl, have a couple of bad habits. The first is you refuse to answer questions and defend your beliefs. One can only surmise that you are unable.

You also have a nasty habit of throwing around accusations without backing them up. I still see no offer of proof for your earlier statements accusing me of taking things out of context.

Either prove your statements, or offer an apology. If you refuse to do either, the phrase "bearing false witness" comes to mind....

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How can you say that you have been baptized in the Name of Jesus when you said that you were baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Now were you or were you not baptized according to the commandment of Peter in Acts 10

Is not Jesus the Father? Is He not the Son? Is He not the Holy Spirit? If He is, and the person who baptized me stated "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost," then how can you say that I haven't been baptized in His name?

Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.

That's what I'm talking about, Brian. Either your entire congregation is all speaking in tongues at one time, or they're not.

What you and your pastor have admitted is that there are times when you do it biblically--one at a time (even though neither admitted whether you keep it to two or at most three)--AND times when you do not (i.e., by two or at most three, and that by course, and with an interpreter).

Why do you allow the times that it is not biblical? For that, I still have not received an answer.</font>[/QUOTE]Don if you go to the bank and try to draw money out of your account and you put your titles where it says singature, are they going to allow you to get that money? Although you are a Father, You are a Son, and you are a husband it still does not change the fact that your name is Don.....

So unless you sign that Check with your Name it is of No effect!!!!

Brian

 

[Don]

Brian, reading comprehension, please.

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...."

Also, don't cop out on me by trying to change the subject:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------
Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.
--------------------------------------------------

That's what I'm talking about, Brian. Either your entire congregation is all speaking in tongues at one time, or they're not.

What you and your pastor have admitted is that there are times when you do it biblically--one at a time (even though neither admitted whether you keep it to two or at most three)--AND times when you do not (i.e., by two or at most three, and that by course, and with an interpreter).

Why do you allow the times that it is not biblical? For that, I still have not received an answer.

 

[donnA]

AITB
Actually I found Thin Within in November last year. I started with a yahoo group of women mostly who had left Wd, at that time TW was onkly a book Thin Again, they opened their site in January, I joined on their first day of opening. I get my TW work book pages on line and print them out. We don't have any groups locally yet. But I have my pastors word we can. I found their statement of faith to be very close to Baptist, although not sure what they are. I love TW, so far the material has been very biblical, and very well written. They believe in Jesus.
They actually exsisted many years before WD, but only local in their area. So far I've lost 47 pounds, maybe more not sure been several weeks since I weighed.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Brian, reading comprehension, please.

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...."

Also, don't cop out on me by trying to change the subject: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
quote:
--------------------------------------------------
Don there are times just like my pastor and my self have stated that the whole congregation will worship together.
--------------------------------------------------

That's what I'm talking about, Brian. Either your entire congregation is all speaking in tongues at one time, or they're not.

What you and your pastor have admitted is that there are times when you do it biblically--one at a time (even though neither admitted whether you keep it to two or at most three)--AND times when you do not (i.e., by two or at most three, and that by course, and with an interpreter).

Why do you allow the times that it is not biblical? For that, I still have not received an answer.

</font>[/QUOTE]

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...."

Don look at what you are makeing Bold. We have all noted that Name is Singular. So would you see the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three diffrent Names of three Persons or do you see Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as Decribeing one Name of One God?

And again Don what we do does not go directly against the sripture. Why did Paul not write to the rest of the Churches? Do you think they were speaking in tongues? The Church of Corinth had issues man, they were not accomplishing anything, nothing was in order at all. There is still a time for public worship.

Godbless

 

[Don]

Brian, I refuse to let you sidetrack this discussion. If you want to bring up "being baptized in the name," please start another thread (since this one's getting close to the ten page limit anyway).

You asked a VERY good question: why did Paul not write to the rest of the churches? Thing about that is, he did. He wrote to all that be in Rome (Romans 1:7); he wrote to the churches at Galatia (Galatians 1:2); he wrote to the saints at Ephesus, and the saints and bishops and deacons at Philippi, and the saints and brethren at Colosse.

And not once do we see a rebuke for, or even a real mention of, speaking in tongues.

Do I think they were speaking in tongues? Can't answer that, because Scripture doesn't clearly say one way or the other.

What scripture is very, very clear about is that the gift of tongues was being mis-used at the church in Corinth. In fact, the church at Corinth was doing a LOT of things wrong.

So Paul gave them instructions on how to do things right.

Some of those instructions were:
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
Let all things be done unto edifying.

And, of course, the thing I've been hammering home:
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Brian, you know as well as I do that if you allow a "a time for public worship" that includes speaking in tongues, then you are fulfilling what Paul said in v.23: If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

I reiterate it one more time: Let all things be done unto edifying (1 Cor 14:26). We are our brother's keeper (Romans 15:1-2); that means the Gospel, and the message of the Gospel, and the things of the Gospel are not for private interpretation, but for spreading throughout the world (2 Peter 1:20, Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:47).

You have yet to provide scripture that proves that your "time of public worship"--to include ALL the congregation speaking in tongues at the same time--is biblical. You simply want me to agree with you, even though we both know it violates Paul's--and therefore God's--instructions.

Please: Prove me wrong.

If you can't, then please do not apologize to me. All I ask is that you seriously, prayerfully re-consider your position.

[ May 22, 2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Don]

I'm done with this topic.

I've presented stuff. It hasn't been refuted.

I now leave it to Sularis, Lorelei, Chemnitz, and anyone/everyone else. I'll watch over the next couple of days, but I've posted enough on this topic.

If any of you (besides MEE and Oneness) find fault or error with my posts and/or presentations, please let me know, and I'll come back and publicly apologize.

However, I have a stipulation: You MUST show exactly what was wrong with what I presented. None of this simply saying "you're taking things out of context" or "you're wrong" schoolyard childishness.

As I said, prove it, and post that proof for all to see, and send me a private message so I can come back and apologize and ask forgiveness.

 

[Lorelei]

Don,

I don't think any of us should post anymore.

1. In thier worship they speak in tongues that violate the regulations in 1 Corinthians 14.

2. They say that only those in Corinth needed to head those instructions

3. Then they say that sometimes they obey 1 Corinthians 14

4. Then they blame it on different interpretations but offer no alternative to what Paul wrote.

Paul said:

1 Corinthians 14:37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

I see no need to keep talking with those who make excuses for what Paul said. Paul was clear that his words were indeed the Lord's command. Since when did the Lord command one thing for one Christian but let others do something different. If it is the Lord's Command then we should be obedient to that.

If anyone doesn't acknowledge it, he should be ignored. No one in the body of Christ should acknowledge those who blantantly disregard The Lord's Command, not on this board, not in their homes and especially not in thier churches.

They can sit here all day and call it the gospel of Christ all they want, but the Holy Spirit doesn't compel true Christians to disregard His own words. He just doesn't. No explanation will ever do.

~Lorelei

 

[susanpet]

POSTED BY ONENESS {Don if you go to the bank and try to draw money out of your account and you put your titles where it says singature, are they going to allow you to get that money? Although you are a Father, You are a Son, and you are a husband it still does not change the fact that your name is Don.....

So unless you sign that Check with your Name it is of No effect!!!!

Brian[/QB][/QUOTE]

Where do you learn all these little examples from? My husband has said the same thing to me for ages. I thought it sounded foolish when he said it too. He is a father, but he has a daughter. He is a son, but he has a father. He is not self-existant. I just don't understand how you all know the same "phrases" and live miles apart.

Just wondering,
Susan

 

[GrannyGumbo]

D I T T O, susanpet! "I have seen/heard all these EXACT same phrases, cliche's, examples, whatever ya wanna call 'em, right here in my community. It's like dejavu. And certain questions I ask these around my house are ignored, just like they were here on this board. They have a FALSE plan of salvation that makes one trust in the WATER & HOLINESS more than the BLOOD of Christ-IF they even do that! (But TONGUES is what they're really all about.) And they are multiplying ever so rapidly, as "THE TAB" over behind me continues to be built....

*With all my heart I want to thank ALL who have contributed to these conversations. They have helped me more than you'll EVER know! I wish there was a way to have saved all of them. Like I said, Lorelei, if you would write a book, or even if you have had a way to keep all this, I would like to buy it! I am very thankful to Don & the other MEN who stood up. I pray the Lord will send us one to this area. "May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." Patricia aka Granny

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by katie:
AITB
Actually I found Thin Within in November last year. I started with a yahoo group of women mostly who had left Wd, at that time TW was onkly a book Thin Again, they opened their site in January, I joined on their first day of opening. I get my TW work book pages on line and print them out. We don't have any groups locally yet. But I have my pastors word we can. I found their statement of faith to be very close to Baptist, although not sure what they are. I love TW, so far the material has been very biblical, and very well written. They believe in Jesus.
They actually exsisted many years before WD, but only local in their area. So far I've lost 47 pounds, maybe more not sure been several weeks since I weighed.

That's great, katie!

I hope you make it to the weight that's best for you and then can stay at it, as enabled by God through Jesus Christ...