Something new, not a C/A issue :D

[menageriekeeper]

I am going over the materials for our Children's Church, which I must lead in the morning. Usually this is pretty straightforward but this week's lesson includes the prophecy that Jeroboam would receive 10 tribes of Isreal and the one would remain loyal to David's decendents. (I Kings 11:29-39)

But, but, but, I Kings 12:21 says Rehoboam "mustered the whole house of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin".

So what happened to the extra strip of cloth from the prophecy (first reference)? My lesson materials say the prophet didn't use the 12th strip because the tribe of Simeon was small and surrounded by Judah, but the scriptures in chp 11-12 say nothing about Simeon and do specify Benjamin went with Judah. The lesson also gives the possiblity that the 12th strip represented Levi because that tribe wasn't given a land inheritance. That also doesn't take into account the scripture specifying Benjamin as mustering up with Judah.

So anyone have any ideas about how this all worked?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I am going over the materials for our Children's Church, which I must lead in the morning. Usually this is pretty straightforward but this week's lesson includes the prophecy that Jeroboam would receive 10 tribes of Isreal and the one would remain loyal to David's decendents. (I Kings 11:29-39)

But, but, but, I Kings 12:21 says Rehoboam "mustered the whole house of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin".

So what happened to the extra strip of cloth from the prophecy (first reference)? My lesson materials say the prophet didn't use the 12th strip because the tribe of Simeon was small and surrounded by Judah, but the scriptures in chp 11-12 say nothing about Simeon and do specify Benjamin went with Judah. The lesson also gives the possiblity that the 12th strip represented Levi because that tribe wasn't given a land inheritance. That also doesn't take into account the scripture specifying Benjamin as mustering up with Judah.

So anyone have any ideas about how this all worked?

The lesson materials may be correct but I will offer an alternative view that I believe is compatible with the nature of the prophecy and the end result.

The ten tribes (in my presentation it includes Simeon) formed the Kingdom of Israel and Judah and Benjamin formed the southern Kingdom of Judah.

First note that though Benjamin joins Judah the identification of the Kingdom is that of Judah.

Secondly and most significantly is the relationship that this "two tribe Kingdom" has to the prophecy that one would be loyal to the house of David.

The southern Kingdom was not destroyed by the Assyrians as was the northern Kingdom of Israel.

Instead, surviving on, The Kingdom of Judah endured the Babylonian captivity and come out of it as one people with the distinction of the tribe of Benjamin gone and the identity with Judah remaining.

 

[Aaron]

10 strips for Israel,

1. Zebulun
2. Simeon
3. Reuben
4. Gad
5. Manasseh
6. Ephraim
7. Asher
8. Dan
9. Naphtali
10. Issachar

2 strips for Judah

1. Judah
2. Benjamin

The Levites were not subject to the kings. Their lord and king was Jehovah.

That's how I look at it.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I'm glad ya'll agree with me.

Aaron , thanks also for pointing out that two of the ten were Ephrim and Mannaseh. The count makes more sense now.

 

[drfuss]

10 strips for Israel,

1. Zebulun
2. Simeon
3. Reuben
4. Gad
5. Manasseh
6. Ephraim
7. Asher
8. Dan
9. Naphtali
10. Issachar

2 strips for Judah

1. Judah
2. Benjamin

The Levites were not subject to the kings. Their lord and king was Jehovah.

That's how I look at it.

drfuss: I will bring this up here since the subject pertains to the 12 tribes of Israel. Revelations 7:5-9 has a somewhat different listing. Here the tribe of Levi is included and the tribe of Dan is missing. Also, both Joseph and Manasseh (his son) are listed as two different tribes bringing it to 12 tribes.

Any explanations as to why the tribe of Dan is missing and both Joesph and Manasseh are listed separately?

 

[Aaron]

drfuss: I will bring this up here since the subject pertains to the 12 tribes of Israel. Revelations 7:5-9 has a somewhat different listing. Here the tribe of Levi is included and the tribe of Dan is missing. Also, both Joseph and Manasseh (his son) are listed as two different tribes bringing it to 12 tribes.

Any explanations as to why the tribe of Dan is missing and both Joesph and Manasseh are listed separately?

I doubt my answer will satisfy you. I am an Amillennialist, and I view the book as largely symbolic, but I'm happy to share my view.

Most commentaries say Dan and Ephraim were excluded from the list because of their idolatries, and that Levi was substitued for Dan and Joseph for Ephraim. That's the usual explanation from the Premillennial side of the table.

My view is simply that John needed the number 12, which in Scripture is usually associated with the Elect. Very quickly:

• Twelve tribes of Israel
• Twelve stones on the Breastplate of the High Priest
• There were 96 sockets (8 X 12) for the foundation of the Tabernacle made out of the silver of the Atonement Money
• Supporting 48 boards (4 X 12) for the Holy Place
• The curtain for the court was supported by 60 posts. (5 X 12)
• Jesus chose Twelve Apostles.
• The Heavenly city has twelve foundations
• and Twelve gates
• The tree in her midst bears twelve fruits.
• And the list could go on.

As Matthew omitted some progenitors from his geneaology of Christ so he could have 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 generations from David to the Captivity, and 14 generations from the Captivity to Christ, so John omitted some progenitors so he could have 12 tribes. Now John may have excluded Ephraim and Dan for the afore-mentioned reasons, but his primary objective was to have the number 12.

To mention the Twelve Tribes to a Jew meant to mention all of Isreal, even though there were 14 progenitors and 13 actual tribes. In other words, 12 is a number of completion. It isn't a census, it is a way of naming all the Elect.

The spiritual significance, I think, is that we're told that some of the natural branches would be broken off (Dan and Ephraim) because of their unbelief, and believing wild branches would be engrafted in their places. I think the wild branches are symbolized by Levi, who had no inheritance with Israel, and Joseph who did not have tribe named for him.

That's my view in a nutshell.

 

[drfuss]

I doubt my answer will satisfy you. I am an Amillennialist, and I view the book as largely symbolic, but I'm happy to share my view.

Most commentaries say Dan and Ephraim were excluded from the list because of their idolatries, and that Levi was substitued for Dan and Joseph for Ephraim. That's the usual explanation from the Premillennial side of the table.

My view is simply that John needed the number 12, which in Scripture is usually associated with the Elect. Very quickly:

• Twelve tribes of Israel
• Twelve stones on the Breastplate of the High Priest
• There were 96 sockets (8 X 12) for the foundation of the Tabernacle made out of the silver of the Atonement Money
• Supporting 48 boards (4 X 12) for the Holy Place
• The curtain for the court was supported by 60 posts. (5 X 12)
• Jesus chose Twelve Apostles.
• The Heavenly city has twelve foundations
• and Twelve gates
• The tree in her midst bears twelve fruits.
• And the list could go on.

As Matthew omitted some progenitors from his geneaology of Christ so he could have 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 generations from David to the Captivity, and 14 generations from the Captivity to Christ, so John omitted some progenitors so he could have 12 tribes. Now John may have excluded Ephraim and Dan for the afore-mentioned reasons, but his primary objective was to have the number 12.

To mention the Twelve Tribes to a Jew meant to mention all of Isreal, even though there were 14 progenitors and 13 actual tribes. In other words, 12 is a number of completion. It isn't a census, it is a way of naming all the Elect.

The spiritual significance, I think, is that we're told that some of the natural branches would be broken off (Dan and Ephraim) because of their unbelief, and believing wild branches would be engrafted in their places. I think the wild branches are symbolized by Levi, who had no inheritance with Israel, and Joseph who did not have tribe named for him.

That's my view in a nutshell.

drfuss: Thank you for your view. This could be a point in favor of considering Revelations to be largely symbolic. I suspect those who take the Book of Revelation more literally may differ from you. It would be interesting to get their opinion on this.

Since Manasseh was Joseph's son, the tribe of Manasseh would be a part of the tribe of Joseph. Jacob gave Ephraim proirity over Manasseh in his final blessing and prophecy. Could this be a factor in Joseph replacing Ephraim to give the tribe of Ephraim more stature?

Is there anywhere in scriptures where Ephrain's Idolatries were considered to be worse than the other ten tribes?

 

[Aaron]

Since Manasseh was Joseph's son, the tribe of Manasseh would be a part of the tribe of Joseph. Jacob gave Ephraim proirity over Manasseh in his final blessing and prophecy. Could this be a factor in Joseph replacing Ephraim to give the tribe of Ephraim more stature?

Is this to me or the Premils? The 144,000 represent the Elect, Jew and Gentile, those who are natural and those who are grafted in, so that "all Israel shall be saved." I don't think there is an elevation of one tribe over another in this list, because in Christ, there is no more Jew or Gentile. If I were to look more into the list in Rev. 7, I would start with the meanings of the names themselves, and study Benjamin Keach's Preaching From The Types And Metaphors Of The Bible. This is something I haven't yet done, and not likely to do in the near future.

Is there anywhere in scriptures where Ephrain's Idolatries were considered to be worse than the other ten tribes?

Ephraim became the name of the whole Northern Kingdom, Jer. 7:15, interchangeable with the name of Israel. Its religion was idolatry (I Kings 12:26-33). It may be for that reason that the name itself was excluded from the list. Dan was a hotbed of idolatry from the days of the judges until the Captivity (Judges 18:30).

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfuss
Since Manasseh was Joseph's son, the tribe of Manasseh would be a part of the tribe of Joseph. Jacob gave Ephraim proirity over Manasseh in his final blessing and prophecy. Could this be a factor in Joseph replacing Ephraim to give the tribe of Ephraim more stature?

Aaron writes:
"Is this to me or the Premils? The 144,000 represent the Elect, Jew and Gentile, those who are natural and those who are grafted in, so that "all Israel shall be saved." I don't think there is an elevation of one tribe over another in this list, because in Christ, there is no more Jew or Gentile."

drfuss: This is to anyone who has an answer. I am just looking for answers to what appeare to be an inconsistency in scripture.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Very interesting discussion guys. I'd like to hear other views on this also.

 

[drfuss]

Very interesting discussion guys. I'd like to hear other views on this also.

drfuss: I also would like to hear some more views. Do all the Bible scholars agree with Aaron?

Other that Aaron's explanation, I really don't have an explanation. I am hoping someone else has one.