Something rotten at Asbury

[5 point Gillinist]

Do the hostile commenters who are attacking these men (who are wanting to biblically evaluate the matter, and express biblical concerns) seem to be "filled with the Spirit?" I would think a Spirit filled individual would praise the biblical wisdom of exercising discernment and testing the teaching. Every true revival that has happened in the past has been based upon the word of God, but seemingly it has no place among many of the asbury apologists.

Based on the hostility of the commenters who are very pro asbury revival and anti-biblical evaluation, as well as the known heretics praising this movement, what seems to be the spirit of this revival?

Something seems rotten to me if making bible based inquiries is seen as "quenching the Spirit."

 

[JonC]

Oddly enough, revivals have never been the result of theological perfection.

They have also never resulted from human planning.

Look at the Great Awakenings in the 1730's and 1740's.

These included revivals encompassing several denominations (diverse doctrines).

We often think of Jonathan Edwards, but by all accounts he was a very poor preacher and his theology was not on par with his philosophy (and I'm a BIG Edwards fan).


I sometimes think revivals occur in these places as proof it is God.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I didn't say anything about theological perfection. My statement was in regards to those who are enraged at those who are raising legitimate theological concerns, the foundations of which are as to whether or not the true gospel is being proclaimed. If one is dubbed a "pharisee" or a "spirit quencher/fighting against God" for such concerns, then I would propose that this is no revival, and nothing different from the bethel church (Redding CA) nonsense - Satan gives experiences and religious revivals too.

 

[rockytopva]

Something rotten at Asbury? I am sure that this woman will go along with that! And after making her points are we back to the carnal ways?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

And after making her points are we back to the carnal ways?

You'll need to clarify what it is that you are saying as I am unsure.

 

[JonC]

I didn't say anything about theological perfection. My statement was in regards to those who are enraged at those who are raising legitimate theological concerns, the foundations of which are as to whether or not the true gospel is being proclaimed. If one is dubbed a "pharisee" or a "spirit quencher/fighting against God" for such concerns, then I would propose that this is no revival, and nothing different from the bethel church (Redding CA) nonsense - Satan gives experiences and religious revivals too.

I don't know about dubbing people. I wouldn't want to fight against God.

I'm not Methodist, so I automatically think their doctrine is flawed. Same with Presbyterians, Pentecostal, and Reformed Baptists.

I agree with you to an extent regarding emotions and experience. But I have also seen that taken too far (I'm not saying by you).

Worship without emotion and not involving experience is just as bad as theologically void worship (not worshipping God for God).

 

[HatedByAll]

It is early so I believe the advise Gamaliel gave in Acts 5:38-39 is excellent advise for the Asbury situation as it was back then. If it is not of God, that will be apparent soon enough.

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Act 5:38-39 KJV

 

[AustinC]

My biggest concern is when I read of people who think they have to go to Asbury College to get a word fr God.
I read of a man who drove from Florida to Asbury be aise he was asking God if he should start a church and he wanted someone at Asbury to prophesy over him and tell him God's will.
This man didn't need to travel that far for God to speak to him. He didn't need a different person to facilitate between himself and God.
People who come to have an emotional "experience" are seeking God out of selfish reasons. They are not Godward and thus not truly revived by God's Spirit. They are emotionally charged, however.
Edwards Religious Affections is worth reading.

A Treatise on Religious Affections (eBook) | Monergism

 

[5 point Gillinist]

It is early so I believe the advise Gamaliel gave in Acts 5:38-39 is excellent advise for the Asbury situation as it was back then. If it is not of God, that will be apparent soon enough.

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Act 5:38-39 KJV

I don't think Gamaliel's statement was recorded by Luke for us to think well of him. Nor do we need to "wait and see," it's pretty easy to evaluate whether a revival is of God if there is a deficiency in the proclamation of the gospel, and a heavy emphasis on experiences.
In spite of what many in Christianity would say today, it isn't Pharisaical to measure things according to what God has laid out in the bible.

 

[KenH]

it isn't Pharisaical to measure things according to what God has laid out in the bible.

Judgment also will I lay to the line,.... A metaphor taken from builders, who in building use the line and plummet to carry on their work even and regular, retaining such stones as agree thereunto, and rejecting such as do not; signifying, that in the spiritual building, where Christ is the foundation and cornerstone, such as are built thereon shall continue and grow up regularly into a holy temple; but those that set at nought this precious stone, and build upon the sandy foundation of their own righteousness, betake themselves to a refuge of lies, and cover themselves in their own hiding places, as well as all such who go on in their sins, shall be rejected by the righteous judgment of God:

and righteousness to the plummet; the rule of the divine law, by which it will appear whether their actions are agreeable to it, or the righteousness they trust in answerable to it; or the sense is, that at the same time that God would preserve and secure his own people upon the sure foundation Christ, he would punish others, according to the strict rules of justice, as his righteous law required, and according to the just demerit of sin.

- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on Isaiah 28:17

 

[JonC]

I don't think Gamaliel's statement was recorded by Luke for us to think well of him. Nor do we need to "wait and see," it's pretty easy to evaluate whether a revival is of God if there is a deficiency in the proclamation of the gospel, and a heavy emphasis on experiences.
In spite of what many in Christianity would say today, it isn't Pharisaical to measure things according to what God has laid out in the bible.

Are there any revivals you think legitimate?

I ask because what often comes to my mind is the "Great Awakenings", but men like Jonathan Edwards would certainly qualify as what you refer to as deficiency in the gospel (at least from a Baptist perspective). And his movement against emotion is also just as bad as those who overemphasized emotion (one is empty feelings, the other empty thoughts).

 

[AustinC]

I haven't seen the data regarding the latest Asbury "revival." Were people brought to repentance of sin in confession? Were unbelievers brought to understand they were dead in their sins and in need of a new life, found only in Christ. We're sins abandoned at the feet of Jesus?

If the only thing that happened was a feeling of love from God that didn't result in deep conviction of sin, then I would see this as a man-ufactured revival. But, if sin is openly exposed and repented of, then I would see this as a God-ward revival.

 

[KenH]

whether a revival is of God if there is a deficiency in the proclamation of the gospel

We should not think that God is unable to bring His elect under the teaching of the gospel of Christ to bring them to faith and repentance from dead works. We should not think that God has to use a cheap, fleshly substitute.

Now, that is not to say that God may use a questionable preacher/teacher or event for His purposes for His elect, such as He did in using Harold Camping, around 30 years ago, to begin the process of pulling me out of the Church of Christ, but that was not the end of the process. God, in His timing, eventually brought me under the hearing of the gospel of Christ in mid-2021 and opened my eyes to His Word and granted me the gifts of faith and repentance from dead works.

The bottom line, if God is using what is going on at Asbury as part of the process to bring any of His elect who are there out of false Christianity, wonderful. But it is not a revival as such, but the beginning of the process until He eventually brings them under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and grants them the gifts of faith and repentance from dead works.

 

[John of Japan]

I wonder, is anyone in this meeting getting saved? If not, is it a real revival? In all of the great historical revivals (Great Awakenings, Jonathan Goforth in China, etc., etc.), many were saved.

Evangelist John R. Rice's definition of revival:
"And what do we mean by revival? Some would make a distinction between revival of the saints and evangelism, winning the unsaved. But all the great soul winners have used the word revival to include not only the stirring of Christians and winning them to a new consecration, a new cleansing of heart and life and a new obedience, but the winning of the unconverted to Christ. These two greatly-to-be-desired results cannot be far separated." (We Can Have Revival Now, 1950, p. 10)

If you lay all of the worship teams in the world end to end, what would you have?

 

[AustinC]

I wonder, is anyone in this meeting getting saved? If not, is it a real revival? In all of the great historical revivals (Great Awakenings, Jonathan Goforth in China, etc., etc.), many were saved.

Evangelist John R. Rice's definition of revival:
"And what do we mean by revival? Some would make a distinction between revival of the saints and evangelism, winning the unsaved. But all the great soul winners have used the word revival to include not only the stirring of Christians and winning them to a new consecration, a new cleansing of heart and life and a new obedience, but the winning of the unconverted to Christ. These two greatly-to-be-desired results cannot be far separated." (We Can Have Revival Now, 1950, p. 10)

If you lay all of the worship teams in the world end to end, what would you have?

Here's what I think of when I hear revival:
*1 Thessalonians 1:4-10*
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[KenH]

a new consecration, a new cleansing of heart and life and a new obedience

"New"? Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (emphasis mine)

It is not something done over and over and over again. People are constantly, it seems, trying to either add to what Christ has stated that He had finished or trying to make it better or trying to replace it altogether with something "new". When God gives one of His elect a new heart it doesn't have to be done a second, third, or fourth time.

 

[John of Japan]

"New"? Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (emphasis mine)

It is not something done over and over and over again. People are constantly, it seems, trying to either add to what Christ has stated that He had finished or trying to make it better or trying to replace it altogether with something "new". When God gives one of His elect a new heart it doesn't have to be done a second, third, or fourth time.

That's not what Rice meant at all; he is not speaking of salvation. You're reading something into his statement that he never meant. He is in print in numerous books and pamphlets about this. He's simply referring to the fact that we need sometimes to renew our commitment. (Unless like some you believe we are sinlessly perfect.) Otherwise, why would passages to Christians like Romans 12:1-2 or 1 Corinthians 6:19-20) be in the Bible?!?

 

[John of Japan]

Here's what I think of when I hear revival:
*1 Thessalonians 1:4-10*
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Good post. We can and should live the revival life every single day.

 

[KenH]

That's not what Rice meant at all; he is not speaking of salvation.

You quoted him as saying: "But all the great soul winners have used the word revival to include not only the stirring of Christians and winning them to a new consecration, a new cleansing of heart and life and a new obedience, but the winning of the unconverted to Christ."

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

(Unless like some you believe we are sinlessly perfect.

The perfection of God's elect is in Christ ALONE.