Songs and Christian Liberty

[Charlie24]

Oh...I know you meant no harm, and no harm done. I reply honestly and expect the same in return as I respect you.

If you believed exactly as me it would be boring. You would be right, but it would be boring.


You mention us having the same Spirit. We do, and that matters. Those Christians God told not to condemn other believers also had the same Spirit.

And those Christians who believe your worship to be satanic for using a piano share the same Spirit.

That is the important part. Be fully convinced in your mind. Know we are of the same Spirit. Do not condemn other believers.

One Wed. night service when we, the tight nit family of the Church were together, the pastor said there would be times when we may not agree, and I may step on some toes and it may sting, but remember we are One Body in the Lord, and we will get through it together.

 

[Charlie24]

One Wed. night service when we, the tight nit family of the Church were together, the pastor said there would be times when we may not agree, and I may step on some toes and it may sting, but remember we are One Body in the Lord, and we will get through it together.

We will get through it Brother Jon! There are so many things we do share in common.

 

[Ascetic X]

If God is using a type of music to spread the gospel, I’d be reluctant to call it evil or satanic. Even if you absolutely hate a type of music, it is better to say it is not edifying or it is not pleasing to you.

 

[Charlie24]

If God is using a type of music to spread the gospel, I’d be reluctant to call it evil or satanic. Even if you absolutely hate a type of music, it is better to say it is not edifying or it is not pleasing to you.

I could be silent and not even express my views, and that was my first thought when I seen the thread. I actually weighed it out, the pro's and con's.

Then I thought what would the Lord think of my silence? So here we are at odds and the con's I previously weighed out.

 

[JonC]

If God is using a type of music to spread the gospel, I’d be reluctant to call it evil or satanic. Even if you absolutely hate a type of music, it is better to say it is not edifying or it is not pleasing to you.

I am that way with Christian Rap. I just don't get it. Can't understand a word. But I have witnessed many over the years reached through that music.

It is not the type of music that would be sung..rapped?...in church and it was not designed for that purpose. But it reaches people with the gospel. It was designed to being the gospel message into the world.

Reminds me of Paul speaking of evangelism. It is not about us. It is about God.

The obvious truth is Satan will not reach people with the gospel. One can at least gage a ministry by its fruits. And many reached by that genre have been faithful for years, even very active in churches.

 

[Charlie24]

I am that way with Christian Rap. I just don't get it. Can't understand a word. But I have witnessed many over the years reached through that music.

It is not the type of music that would be sung..rapped?...in church and it was not designed for that purpose. But it reaches people with the gospel. It was designed to being the gospel message into the world.

Reminds me of Paul speaking of evangelism. It is not about us. It is about God.

The obvious truth is Satan will not reach people with the gospel. One can at least gage a ministry by its fruits. And many reached by that genre have been faithful for years, even very active in churches.

That would be the "New Cart" I spoke of with David and the Ark.

God had a prescribed way to deliver the Ark, He would not accept any other way.

 

[Charlie24]

That would be the "New Cart" I spoke of with David and the Ark.

God had a prescribed way to deliver the Ark, He would not accept any other way.

Now if you think God will allow his Words to effectively be delivered through the ways of the world, then I think you may not know God as well as you think.

 

[JonC]

If God is using a type of music to spread the gospel, I’d be reluctant to call it evil or satanic. Even if you absolutely hate a type of music, it is better to say it is not edifying or it is not pleasing to you.

I will say this - I was saved in 1979. What reached me with the gospel, made be understand, made me listen?

It was a set of songs (Contemporary Christian, Southern Gospel....with that "rock beat") at a SBC VBS.

I guess that is one reason I am passionate about authenticity in worship and this topic.

Reading some posts I realize that many couldn't care less about reaching a young JonC if outside of their preferred genre.

God used Contempirary Worship Music to save me. I would be dishonoring God to remain silent when I know young men snd women are without Christ and people are dying daily without having encountered the gospel in a meaningful way.

 

[JonC]

That would be the "New Cart" I spoke of with David and the Ark.

God had a prescribed way to deliver the Ark, He would not accept any other way.

But at one time your hymns were the "New Cart". Were hymns satanic for the first several decades only to become holy once they became a part of tradition?

No. Of course not. Hymns, when they were the "New Cart", was God's New Cart to reach another generation.

Did old cart folk condemn our traditional hymns? Yes. And ultimately they were, in that aspect, enemies of God.

Satan ended up not the creator of the new cart of traditional hymns but in the hearts of the old cart people fighting against God. Thisbis obvious as the old cart people died out and many were reached with the gospel through those traditional hymns.

So I say "more New Carts!"

Let the traditionalists continue to worship God even as they oppose His work in younger generations. Let them die out, completely. Let the younger generations follow God, remembering the failure of traditionalists who opposed God while knowing they were brethren who would still stand in Christ.

Let those of us who rejoice with the angles, who rejoice with God, that younger generations are being reached with the gospel of Christ, that thousands are bring saved, rejoice that God has reached out with "new carts" in meaningful ways to generations that would otherwise be lost.

And let us all keep in mind that were it not for new carts we would all be lost. There is not one of us who were reached with Near Eastern worship songs or Greek scriptures (translating the Bible into English was, at one time, a "new cart" and a bridge too far to many).

 

[Charlie24]

But at one time your hymns were the "New Cart". Were hymns satanic for the first several decades only to become holy once they became a part of tradition?

No. Of course not. Hymns, when they were the "New Cart", was God's New Cart to reach another generation.

Did old cart folk condemn our traditional hymns? Yes. And ultimately they were, in that aspect, enemies of God.

Satan ended up not the creator of the new cart of traditional hymns but in the hearts of the old cart people fighting against God. Thisbis obvious as the old cart people died out and many were reached with the gospel through those traditional hymns.

So I say "more New Carts!"

Let the traditionalists continue to worship God even as they oppose His work in younger generations. Let them die out, completely. Let the younger generations follow God, remembering the failure of traditionalists who opposed God while knowing they were brethren who would still stand in Christ.

Let those of us who rejoice with the angles, who rejoice with God, that younger generations are being reached with the gospel of Christ, that thousands are bring saved, rejoice that God has reached out with "new carts" in meaningful ways to generations that would otherwise be lost.

And let us all keep in mind that were it not for new carts we would all be lost. There is not one of us who were reached with Near Eastern worship songs or Greek scriptures (translating the Bible into English was, at one time, a "new cart" and a bridge too far to many).

Nope, there was no rock beat that represented the world until the mid 50's.

It was a threat to parents then when it came out and it continues to be a threat, only now in the Church of God.

This is what it is.

Matt. 15:8

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

 

[JonC]

Nope, there was no rock beat that represented the world until the mid 50's.

It was a threat to parents then when it came out and it continues to be a threat, only now in the Church of God.

This is what it is.

Matt. 15:8

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Nope. It is a modification of the 6/8 time beat.

Why do you believe that God accepts your music timing but not the timing of other Christians music?

Do you really not see how your idea is essentially witchcraft (change the emphasis of the timing and it becomes satanic)?

What other meters change music worshipping God to satanic music?

What about that 3/8 meter? Does Satan use that to spread the gospel as well?

How about the worldly music (harmony) you use in contrast to the music of the Bible?

What about your use of a rock instrument (the piano)?

 

[JonC]

For those unaware..... what @Charlie24 is talking anout is the emphasis or back beat.

The timing is the same, but while @Charlie prefers the back beat on 1 and 3 many CWM has the back beat on 2 and 4.

The 2/4 beat is more energetic. The 1/3 is more relaxing (1/3 is typical of Jazz).

My concern is he is essentually saying that by changing the back beat one invokes Satan, which means by keeping it as 1/3 one pleases God.

This means God loves Jazz. He hatespost-1950s Country.

But biblical worship did not have the beat @Charlie likes.....so God may be rejecting all our worship as we both have "new carts".

 

[Charlie24]

Nope. It is a modification of the 6/8 time beat.

Why do you believe that God accepts your music timing but not the timing of other Christians music?

Do you really not see how your idea is essentially witchcraft (change the emphasis of the timing and it becomes satanic)?

What other meters change music worshipping God to satanic music?

What about that 3/8 meter? Does Satan use that to spread the gospel as well?

How about the worldly music (harmony) you use in contrast to the music of the Bible?

What about your use of a rock instrument (the piano)?

LOL, you're still funny, Jon. Even when you're not trying to be.

Paul warned us of the things to come in the last days. The rock beat worship in the Church is one of many devices by Satan to ruin the Church.

Christ spues it out of His mouth, but you believe whatever you want, it's well under way and will grow to astronomical heights.

 

[JonC]

Paul warned us of the things to come in the last days. The rock beat worship in the Church is one of many devices by Satan to ruin the Church.

Well....your hymns are set to worldy timing (specifically popular dance music of the time). So I doubt that is how Satan is gaining power over people.

Instead I see Satan attacking the church on a few fronts.

One is politics as churches become more political and less faithful to the gospel.

Another is by degrading doctrine as churches become more self-help organizations.

But another is a traditionalist mentality. So many have come to God through what you declare to be satanic. Traditionalist love their traditions more than they love God. They have lost their First Love. They would rather men perish in Hell than they be saved apart from their traditions.

The churches that stood in opposition to traditional hymns centuries ago because they were "worldly", new carts, have been spewed out already. They no longer exist.

That should be a warning to you as you have adopted their arguments to engage in the same opposition to God.

The sad part is, if this is the common IFB mentality, then the relevancy of the IFB movement will come to an end in a few generations. What remains will be nominal groups moving increasingly further from God until it is nothing but a remnant of what once was. They will be spewed out if they maintain their vourse. How do I know? God promised it.

The good part is Christianity will march on without them.

 

[JonC]

Thread merged with another of the same topic. Original thread was just to post praise music used in our churches and our favorites but it was hijacked.

 

[Charlie24]

Thread merged with another of the same topic. Original thread was just to post praise music used in our churches and our favorites but it was hijacked.

That must have been me hijacking. It was purely by mistake.

Sorry to whoever started that thread, I didn't intend to do that.

 

[JonC]

An observation -

Churches that prioritize their traditions and preferences have been lamenting the decline of "Christianity" for years.

But when I look around I see exactly the opposite. I see healthy and godly churches with excellent doctrine growing among younger generations. I have repeatedly called this a "revival" (with the popular usage of the word in mind).

So how do we account for these stark differences in how we view Christianity?

Threads like this clears it up. What people lament and view as Satan attacking the church is in reality a decline in traditions as a generation ages out of relevance. As they are reluctant to yield to God they become irrelevant.


The attire has changed to reflect a change in cultural from my grandparents.

The music has changed from the waltz time signature to a time signature that replaced it culturally about 70 years ago.

The theories and theologies that once separated Christians have become secondary to the gospel of Christ.

The primacy of church buildings for events have given way to maintaining a sense of community among members as they live in the world.

Separation from the world is viewed as living holy lives, being like Christ, rather than superficial appearance.

Evangelism is a daily activity, a part of their identity.

This newer generation of believers is more faithful in many ways than the churches of my youth.

I think a part of this is there seems to have been a generation or two skipped. I have met several parents reached by the testimony of their children (the reverse of my day as a kid). This generation did not inherit the baggage of useless tradition we valued. They inherited God.

How does this look in action?

Go to a coffee shop (any around here). You will see young people studying their bibles.

Bible on a tablet or phone? No. Physical bibles they take notes in (I prefer a tablet, but to each his own...easier for me to read).

Alcohol? No. Water and coffee (and Mountain Dew).

Relationships? Dating for the purpose of marriage, no sex, never alone in one another's home, etc.

Eat without praying at a restaurant (or anywhere)? No. You pray aloud. This is separation and could be a witness to others. (I pray silently, this was a change for me).

Evangelism? It is a part of their identity.

Accountability? Always, with one another and meeting with older adults weekly.


What so many morn is not in reality a decline in Christianity (although they do not realize this) but a decline in their traditions and the fact that they have chosen to be left behind.

My suggestion is get out. Meet these Christians. Set aside your prejudices. You do not have to adopt their worship styles to be a part of God's work. All you need to do, at a minimum, is encourage them decide not to be an enemy of God towards these believers.

 

[JonC]

That must have been me hijacking. It was purely by mistake.

Sorry to whoever started that thread, I didn't intend to do that.

Nah....it doesn't matter. It started before you and after moving some I just let it go.

 

[Charlie24]

Well....your hymns are set to worldy timing (specifically popular dance music of the time). So I doubt that is how Satan is gaining power over people.

Instead I see Satan attacking the church on a few fronts.

One is politics as churches become more political and less faithful to the gospel.

Another is by degrading doctrine as churches become more self-help organizations.

But another is a traditionalist mentality. So many have come to God through what you declare to be satanic. Traditionalist love their traditions more than they love God. They have lost their First Love. They would rather men perish in Hell than they be saved apart from their traditions.

The churches that stood in opposition to traditional hymns centuries ago because they were "worldly", new carts, have been spewed out already. They no longer exist.

That should be a warning to you as you have adopted their arguments to engage in the same opposition to God.

The sad part is, if this is the common IFB mentality, then the relevancy of the IFB movement will come to an end in a few generations. What remains will be nominal groups moving increasingly further from God until it is nothing but a remnant of what once was. They will be spewed out if they maintain their vourse. How do I know? God promised it.

The good part is Christianity will march on without them.

I guess the IFB is like politics, become more liberal or fade away. The picture of what the world is becoming.

I refuse to do that, and at 70 it's not going to be a problem for me, but my kids, that's a different story.

 

[JonC]

I guess the IFB is like politics, become more liberal or fade away. The picture of what the world is becoming.

I refuse to do that, and at 70 it's not going to be a problem for me, but my kids, that's a different story.

Yes. But "liberal" in its original context - willing to respect opinions different from one's own.

If you read my post then you would have seen that this generation of believers is completely different from what the world is becoming.

The thing is, the difference is less superficial than you may like.

When we find ourselves unable to encourage Christians who are different from us we reveal a serious problem regardless of our age.


I need to add..... when I say IFB churches that are mired in tradition are dying out (Jesus promises to "spew" the out) I do not mean their children or grandchildren will not have a church. They just will not be trapped in the same prejudices.

It was like that with the churches who considered traditional hymns (when those were new) too worldly. Those churches no longer exist, but odds are at least some of their children joined churches that sang traditional hymns. And very shortly those hymn singing churches became strong.

To everything there is a season.