Sorry, but the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost !

[savedbymercy]

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the reason being, satan, the god of this world [while in a lost state experimentally] hath blinded their minds, resulting in they believe not [the Gospel Truth] !

Many have failed to realize that satan, the devil, by the purpose and permitting of God is the author/ initiator of the unbelief of the Lost !

It started with the first natural parents of the elect, Adam and Eve, when he caused Eve to question God's forbidding them to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:1-6

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God had stated that if they eat, they shall surely die Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The serpent contradicted what God said and said to her :

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And he convinced her to eat, under the delusion that she would not surely die ! So who did she obviously believe ? She believed the Lie of the serpent, which obviously meant she did not believe God, which is unbelief, thats where it began for man in Adam, and as a consequent God enclosed/shut up all in adam in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded, if you study it, it means to enclose/shut in, its the greek word sugkleió :

I enclose, shut in, make subject to.

Its sorta like an imprisonment, man by nature is in lost in a imprisonment of unbelief !

Thats why Jesus says His Mission was to set the prisoners free Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

That word bound means :

to tie, bind, imprison

This is the prison of unbelief we are lost in because of Eves disobedience, which was also Adams !

As long as we are in prison/lost by nature, the Gospel is hid to us, and we will believe not !

And satan the devil is the author/ initiator of it !

 

[PreachTony]

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the reason being, satan, the god of this world [while in a lost state experimentally] hath blinded their minds, resulting in they believe not [the Gospel Truth] !

Many have failed to realize that satan, the devil, by the purpose and permitting of God is the author/ initiator of the unbelief of the Lost !

Oh, crud...this again?

We've been over this before when you tried to say that the gospel is actually permanently hidden to the lost. You try to use the verse in 2 Corinthians to make your point.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost."

That does not mean it is hidden to the lost permanently. It means if we who are called to preach hide the gospel, it is hidden to the detriment of the lost who need to hear it.

This was explained at length to you several months ago, and you ignored the words of everyone with whom you disagree. I imagine that will happened here, seeing as we do not tend to agree. I just wish you wouldn't accuse everyone who disagrees with you of "Evasion! Rabbit Trail!"

And no, I won't rehearse your points. That's not how debate works...but that's also been explained to you several times. :BangHead:

 

[Rippon]

Matthew 11:25,26
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

From verse 27 :
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Luke 10:21 and 22 repeat the same message.

 

[Rippon]

Oh, crud...this again?

Watch your language.

We've been over this before when you tried to say that the gospel is actually permanently hidden to the lost. You try to use the verse in 2 Corinthians to make your point.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost."

That does not mean it is hidden to the lost permanently. It means if we who are called to preach hide the gospel, it is hidden to the detriment of the lost who need to hear it.

In 2 Cor. 4:3 it says the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

The text has nothing to do with preachers hiding the gospel. You are importing a foreign concept into the text.

 

[savedbymercy]

Oh, crud...this again?

We've been over this before when you tried to say that the gospel is actually permanently hidden to the lost. You try to use the verse in 2 Corinthians to make your point.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost."

That does not mean it is hidden to the lost permanently. It means if we who are called to preach hide the gospel, it is hidden to the detriment of the lost who need to hear it.

This was explained at length to you several months ago, and you ignored the words of everyone with whom you disagree. I imagine that will happened here, seeing as we do not tend to agree. I just wish you wouldn't accuse everyone who disagrees with you of "Evasion! Rabbit Trail!"

And no, I won't rehearse your points. That's not how debate works...but that's also been explained to you several times. :BangHead:

Yes it is hidden to the lost permanently while they are in a lost state! Unbelief and lostness are joined together!

 

[savedbymercy]

Sorry, but the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost !2

So it is, all the while we are in the flesh, in a state of nature, a lost state, we are under the power of the devil, the god of this world, Paul also says this about that state Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Thats every lost mans walk by nature, elect and non elect alike, they are under the prince of the power of the air, a spirit that bounds them to disobedience/unbelief !

Being in unbelief means that we are still under the power and control of the devil, by the will and permission of God.

But now here is the good news of what Christ has done, He has destroyed the works and the power od the devil Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death[and unbelief], that is, the devil;

1 Jn 3:8

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Which, one of those works of the devil is unbelief, initiated back in the garden by him !

This unbelief is a work of the devil is also seen from Lk 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

By this he holds us in the prison of unbelief ! We by nature suffer the fate of the wayside hearer or the Lost man of 2 Cor 4:3-4.

But now did Christ destroy the Power of the devil ? Yes, He most certainly did, but not for all people without exception, not for them who permanently remain in a lost state of unbelief, but He did for them He came to save, His People Matt 1:21 or the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

The seed of Abraham is only a segment of Humanity, not all of it !

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes it is hidden to the lost permanently while they are in a lost state! Unbelief and lostness are joined together!

2 Cor 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost !

The word hid here, the greek word kaluptó and means:

I veil, hide, conceal, envelop.

properly, to cover; (figuratively) keep secret, hidden; "covered over" (concealed).

to hide, veil, i. e. to hinder the knowledge of a thing: in this case, its to conceal from one the Knowledge of the Truth of the Gospel !

Now, also the word is in the Perfect Tense[both times], which denotes an completed action in the past with results into the present and future, so as long as one is in a Lost state, the concealing of the knowledge of the Gospel is permanent !

 

[Rippon]

Matthew 11:25,26
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

From verse 27 :
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Luke 10:21 and 22 repeat the same message.

Hmm... DHK has said :"Perhaps Calvinism teaches that God deliberately hides the truth from individuals who want the truth, but I don't believe that."

As is obvious from the above cited passages the Lord does indeed hide or conceal saving truths from some. However, these folks have no desire for God. They do not crave the truth. The Lord chooses who He wants to reveal Himself to.

 

[Rippon]

Matthew 11:20-24

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."
_________________________________________________________________
Will anyone dare to say that the Lord was being "unfair" here? It was acknowledged that the residents of those cities that were burned with fire and brimstone would have repented if they had seen miracles that Jesus performed in Korazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum.

Are you going to charge God with not doing enough? Are you going to accuse him of not going that extra mile because the Lord knew they would not repent unless miracles had been performed there? Will you assign him with guilt in your mortal tribunal because He wasn't being fair --He didn't do all in His power to save them?

 

[PreachTony]

Hmm... DHK has said :"Perhaps Calvinism teaches that God deliberately hides the truth from individuals who want the truth, but I don't believe that."

As is obvious from the above cited passages the Lord does indeed hide or conceal saving truths from some. However, these folks have no desire for God. They do not crave the truth. The Lord chooses who He wants to reveal Himself to.

According to you guys, no one craves the truth and seeks God until God moves them to do so...So you have a theology in which God hides the gospel from men, then commands men to believe the gospel which He never reveals to them, and He never grants them the ability to hear it or understand it, but then He damns them for unbelief that He never intended to change in them. And somehow that makes sense and is merciful to you guys.

 

[vooks]

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the reason being, satan, the god of this world [while in a lost state experimentally] hath blinded their minds, resulting in they believe not [the Gospel Truth] !

Many have failed to realize that satan, the devil, by the purpose and permitting of God is the author/ initiator of the unbelief of the Lost !

It started with the first natural parents of the elect, Adam and Eve, when he caused Eve to question God's forbidding them to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:1-6



God had stated that if they eat, they shall surely die Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The serpent contradicted what God said and said to her :

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And he convinced her to eat, under the delusion that she would not surely die ! So who did she obviously believe ? She believed the Lie of the serpent, which obviously meant she did not believe God, which is unbelief, thats where it began for man in Adam, and as a consequent God enclosed/shut up all in adam in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded, if you study it, it means to enclose/shut in, its the greek word sugkleió :

I enclose, shut in, make subject to.

Its sorta like an imprisonment, man by nature is in lost in a imprisonment of unbelief !

Thats why Jesus says His Mission was to set the prisoners free Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

That word bound means :

to tie, bind, imprison

This is the prison of unbelief we are lost in because of Eves disobedience, which was also Adams !

As long as we are in prison/lost by nature, the Gospel is hid to us, and we will believe not !

And satan the devil is the author/ initiator of it !

So Satan frustrates the cross by hiding its efficacy from those who need it the most?:tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

 

[savedbymercy]

So Satan frustrates the cross by hiding its efficacy from those who need it the most?:tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

Is that what you believe ?

 

[McCree79]

He never grants them the ability to hear it or understand it, but then He damns them for unbelief that He never intended to change in them. And somehow that makes sense and is merciful to you guys.

Not mercy. It is justice. God isn't required to show anyone mercy. You are either a receipant of mercy or a recipient of justice. Mercy is a gift. Justice is what we have earned. They receive what they earned. Like Rippon said(*I paraphrase*) "they don't seek after God anyway. They have no desire for him". God gives them over to their own sinful desires.

 

[savedbymercy]

Not mercy. It is justice. God isn't required to show anyone mercy. You are either a receipant of mercy or a recipient of justice. Mercy is a gift. Justice is what we have earned. They receive what they earned. Like Rippon said(*I paraphrase*) "they don't seek after God anyway. They have no desire for him". God gives them over to their own sinful desires.

You made some wise statements, Gods Mercy is reserved for them who are called the Vessels of Mercy here Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Mercy is not owed to men by God !

 

[PreachTony]

Not mercy. It is justice. God isn't required to show anyone mercy. You are either a receipant of mercy or a recipient of justice. Mercy is a gift. Justice is what we have earned. They receive what they earned. Like Rippon said(*I paraphrase*) "they don't seek after God anyway. They have no desire for him". God gives them over to their own sinful desires.

That's what I was driving at. According to that particular theological leaning, man cannot have a desire to seek God unless God places that desire in him. According to their own theology God only does this to some, yet he blames and punishes those who He never moved to believe for not believing.

 

[McCree79]

That's what I was driving at. According to that particular theological leaning, man cannot have a desire to seek God unless God places that desire in him. According to their own theology God only does this to some, yet he blames and punishes those who He never moved to believe for not believing.

The non-elect are not being punished because he does move them to believe. They are being punished for being a rebellious creation. Who sins everyday agaisnt God. If God failed to punish them for these sins, he would be unjust.
Being regenerated by God is our escape from justice. God choosing not to call someone is not the result of their demise. They are condemned by their life and judged according to God's truth. Their own actions condemn them. Their own desire is NOT to believe. Therefore the blame for that is on them as well. God can't be blamed for not changing their own will. He gave them what they want.

 

[PreachTony]

Their own desire is NOT to believe. Therefore the blame for that is on them as well. God can't be blamed for not changing their own will. He gave them what they want.

I was under the impression that it is the desire of all men to not believe unless God acts upon them.

 

[McCree79]

I was under the impression that it is the desire of all men to not believe unless God acts upon them.

Correct, unless you are regenerated.

 

[steaver]

The non-elect are not being punished because he does not move them to believe. They are being punished for being a rebellious creation. Who sins everyday agaisnt God. If God failed to punish them for these sins, he would be unjust.
.

You could argue such if it were not for the fact that all are born condemned a sinner from the womb, having no option but to sin, and not understanding why they sin. This is where TULIP fails.

 

[McCree79]

You could argue such if it were not for the fact that all are born condemned a sinner from the womb, having no option but to sin, and not understanding why they sin. This is where TULIP fails.

Total depravity. It is actually a strength of TULIP. No failure. Original sin, the sinful nature is the condition of the rebellious creation after the fall. We brought sin upon ourselves.