Sought After God

[Yeshua1]

**Disclaimer: I'm placing this thread here in the Calvinism/Arminianism Debate thread, though if the mods feel another forum is a better place, I will understand if it is moved.**

The first of the Five Points of Calvinism, as we all know, is Total Depravity. Some, though I'm not sure how many on this board, claim that Total Depravity renders man completely incapable of seeking after God. Now, we can of course argue the true extent of Total Depravity; whether it applies only to repentance and salvation, or if it applies to all aspects of man failing to seek God.

My personal experience with Calvinists has tended toward the latter, as many of the Calvinists I've spoken to in person claim that man is so depraved he cannot possibly seek after God in any aspect of his life. (NOTE: When I say "personal experience with Calvinists, I mean to say those Calvinists with whom I've spoken in person.) I'm curious what the Calvinists and non-Calvinists here think concerning the ability to seek God. I know this will probably open the door to snippiness and terseness, but I do ask that we respectfully talk about this topic, if possible.

I know many supports of Calvinism turn to Romans 3:10-12 to prove Total Depravity:


But all the way back in the time of David, we see the psalmist writing the following:

This scripture reveals a man capable of seeking after God, and crying out to God.

Jumping forward to the Gospels, we see a very specific episode found in all four Gospels.



In each of these gospel stories, we see a woman who made the choice to seek after Jesus for healing, believing that Jesus could heal her. The understanding that I have of Total Depravity, per the information gleaned from speaking to Calvinists, would render this woman incapable of deciding within herself to seek after Jesus. Total Depravity would stop the psalmist from seeking after God, and crying out to God.

But then we see Paul standing atop Mars' Hill in Athens, in the Areopagus, referring to the various altars and inscriptions all around him, and he launched into a sermon about the UNKNOWN GOD. In speaking to a crowd that was, in all likelihood, non-Jewish and non-Christian, Paul said the following:

If man is completely incapable of seeking after God, then why would Paul, seemingly preaching in the Spirit, say that men should "seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from" them?

Again, I'm curious what you guys think about this topic. I would like to keep this thread civil. Thanks in advance.

We would hold that due to the fall of adam, all of us are sinners now, and that while in that condition, we cannot freely come to Jesus, nor even want to come to Him in order to get saved, as we do prefer to walk in darkness and our own sins..

We also would hold that we still see sinners making up own religion and way to get back to God, as we have the witness of the creation to God, but lost sinners come to him by own works, NOT by trusting in christ!

 

[RLBosley]

My $.02

But all the way back in the time of David, we see the psalmist writing the following:

This scripture reveals a man capable of seeking after God, and crying out to God.

I would say that David is already a believer here and is seeking the Lord in physical deliverance from his enemies. Not exactly applicable to regeneration.

Jumping forward to the Gospels, we see a very specific episode found in all four Gospels.

In each of these gospel stories, we see a woman who made the choice to seek after Jesus for healing, believing that Jesus could heal her. The understanding that I have of Total Depravity, per the information gleaned from speaking to Calvinists, would render this woman incapable of deciding within herself to seek after Jesus. Total Depravity would stop the psalmist from seeking after God, and crying out to God.

Again, this was someone seeking Jesus for physical healing, not salvation. Jesus also remarks that it was her faith that caused her to reach out and seek him for healing. So she has already has some form of faith in Christ before seeking him for this healing.

But then we see Paul standing atop Mars' Hill in Athens, in the Areopagus, referring to the various altars and inscriptions all around him, and he launched into a sermon about the UNKNOWN GOD. In speaking to a crowd that was, in all likelihood, non-Jewish and non-Christian, Paul said the following:

If man is completely incapable of seeking after God, then why would Paul, seemingly preaching in the Spirit, say that men should "seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from" them?

This one is hard I admit. My take on it is that all men are obligated to seek after and worship God. Their ability or their willingness to do so isn't in view here though.

But God has even gone to the length of determining the time, location and boundaries of all nations in order that man could seek him and some even find him. Sounds like predestination to me.

My own testimony goes completely contrary to Calvinism, in my opinion, and is why I can never subscribe to it.

I was lost and on my way to hell. Yet i thought I was ok. I grew up in church, and knew all the verses about salvation and repentance. I had just never applied it to my own life. I felt the conviction of the HS everytime a sermon on hell was preached. But my pride was in the way.

I served in my church. I sang in the choir, I had a bus route, I went soul winning. I led dozens of people to the Lord; all while lost myself. Finally, one service I'd had enough running, and accepted Christ as my savior. He didn't force Himself on me. He had patience to keep drawing me until I came to Him.

I see that OR and James have already discussed this, but the bolded above sounds a lot like irresistible grace (better called overcoming/overwhelming grace) to me.

 

[savedbymercy]

What does it mean to resist the Spirit ?

Acts 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The word resist here is the greek word antipiptō and means:

to fall upon, run against

2) to be adverse, oppose, strive against

This resisting of the Spirit or the Holy Ghost is when the natural man, dead in sins, manifests his enmity of heart, of his uncircumcised heart at that, of the Testimony of the Truth given by God's Servants, for instance when Stephen testified of the Truth to dead spiritually jews here it is stated Acts 7:51-52

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Now compare with Neh 9:30

30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands.

This is a external work of the Spirit for testification, and has nothing to do with His Work of Giving Life/ New Birth, or His Sanctifying Work unto belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This is when God the Spirit actually gives a circumcised heart ! Deut 30:6

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Stephen knew that the jews he spake to in Acts 7:51-52 were not of this seed !