Soul and Spirit

[Moriah]

The only thing man can kill is the body with the spirit in it because the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD because James say the body is dead without the spirit.

You tried to straighten out what you said in the other thread. Now, are you coming closer to realizing that a man can kill a man’s body, but cannot kill the spirit within the man?

However, if as you say, the soul EQUALS a body with spirit, then man could kill the "soul" by killing the body with the spirit in it!

A man can kill a body with the spirit, but man cannot kill the spirit. When the spirit of man leaves his body, the body is dead; he is no longer a living soul. However, his spirit lives on in either obedience to God, or to disobedience.

Thus by your definition man can kill the soul as that is the only thing man can kill since the only living body is a body with spirit. However, by Christ's definition man cannot kill the soul, therefore, the body plus the spirit does not equal the "soul" by Christ's definition.

You keep trying to say 2+2=5. A man cannot kill the soul because the part that makes a man a soul is the man’s spirit. God can take away a man’s body and the man will die a physical death in this world, but his spirit will live on. God can also take the man’s body and soul (body with the spirit) and put it in to Hell.

You are reading into this text what Jesus does not say. He does not say man can kill the body whether it is with or without the spirit!

Man can ONLY kill a living man’s body. Man cannot kill the part of the man that makes him a living soul, and that part is the spirit.

He does not say that the body with the spirit is a soul! He does not say that! YOU are the one reading this into the text.

Then if I am the only one saying that, then you explain your beliefs on how a man can live on after the death of his body! You will say the man’s spirit is living on, is that not what you believe. If the spirit is what give the man life, and the spirit lives on in consciousness, with the ability to think, talk, feel emotions, and move about, then you must come to the realization that THAT PART, the spirit, is the part that makes the man who he is…and that makes him a living soul.

Jesus says that the body with the spirit can be killed - as the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD and man cannot kill what is ALREADY DEAD.

BUT THE SPIRIT ITSELF CANNOT BE KILLED.

However, Jesus says man cannot kill the soul! Hence, the soul cannot include the body with or without a spirit or otherwise man could kill it. So your interpretation is wrong!

Therefore, YOU ARE SAYING HERE THAT A MAN”S BODY DOES NOT LIVE ON AFTER THE DEATH OF THE BODY.

When the body is killed by man both the spirit and soul depart from the body

Explain how a soul and a spirit depart a man’s body! Explain it and describe it!

but man cannot kill either. God does not anihilate either in Gehenna.

A man CAN kill a man’s body and cause living man to die!

 

[Moriah]

If the soul and spirit are different then what is the origin of each? How do they come into existence?

The soul and spirit are the same...except one is about a person and his body (that would be the soul). When the Bible talks about a man's spirit, it is about only the spirit and not the body.

 

[The Biblicist]

You tried to straighten out what you said in the other thread. Now, are you coming closer to realizing that a man can kill a man’s body, but cannot kill the spirit within the man?



A man can kill a body with the spirit, but man cannot kill the spirit.

First, you are changing the Word of God to suite your theory instead of changing your theory to suite the Word of God.

Matthew 10:28 does not use the term "spirit" but you are inserting it as though it did when you paraphase it and say,

A man can kill a body with the spirit, but man cannot kill the spirit

Jesus says no such thing and uses no such words in Matthew 10:28. He uses the term "soul" not "spirit."

Second, you are making a circuluar argument. You first assume your position is correct and then interpret Matthew 10:28 to fit your assumed theory.

Genesis 2:7 use the PLURAL "lives" (Hebrew plural) not singular "life". Both the human "spirit" and "soul" are in substance "spirit" or non-material and thus God inspirted plural lives - physical life, spiritual life, soulish life.

The term "soul" in scriptures always expresses the mental, emotional and volitional activities within the body of man just as it is used to express the mental, emotional and volitional activties of God who has no physical body.

The following passages cannot replace "body" with the word "soul" as the "soul" is the seat of intellect, emotion and will that are found IN THE BODY and that is precisely what these passages reflect:


my soul is well pleased:
My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
My soul doth magnify the Lord,
my soul troubled;
my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
thy soul lusted after
My soul is also sore vexed:
converting the soul:
My soul shall make her boast
my soul shall be joyful
I pour out my soul in me:

All these statements demonstrate that the "soul" is "IN ME" and it is not the spirit plus a body although the soul dominates the body and therefore man is a "living soul." It is the seat of intellectual, emotional and volitional faculties in me that dominate and domineer the body.

 

[The Biblicist]

The soul and spirit are the same...except one is about a person and his body (that would be the soul). When the Bible talks about a man's spirit, it is about only the spirit and not the body.

The following texts prove the spirit of man is as much in the body as the soul is in the body.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Ps 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

Ps 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Ps 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

Ps 142:3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.

Ps 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.


Mr 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mr 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit,

Mr 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Lu 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit

 

[Moriah]

my soul is well pleased:
My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
My soul doth magnify the Lord,
my soul troubled;
my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
thy soul lusted after
My soul is also sore vexed:
converting the soul:
My soul shall make her boast
my soul shall be joyful
I pour out my soul in me

Everything you posted here shows that the person speaking is speaking with a body and a spirit. Everything you posted here shows that the person is speaking about his or her whole body and spirit.

All these statements demonstrate that the "soul" is "IN ME"

The spirit is IN a person. How do you get because your spirit shows by what you say and do means your spirit with body is not your soul?

and it is not the spirit plus a body although the soul dominates the body and therefore man is a "living soul."

You see, you repeat now something I said. I have been telling you that we are a living soul.

It is the seat of intellectual, emotional and volitional faculties in me that dominate and domineer the body.

You just described the spirit. Remember, the body without the spirit is dead. Did you not say in the thread with Trevor that the spirit of a man lives on in consciousness? In a previous post you said the soul and spirit of a man lives on after the death of the body, but there are not two parts of us that go to heaven! You still have not explained your beliefs about what a soul and spirit is.

 

[Moriah]

The following texts prove the spirit of man is as much in the body as the soul is in the body.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Ps 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

Ps 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Ps 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

Ps 142:3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.

Ps 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.


Mr 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mr 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit,

Mr 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Lu 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit

All these scriptures are concerned about the spirit and not the body.

 

[Moriah]

God has provided us with three distinct seats of consciousness:

1. Our body is the seat of outer world consciousness through five senses
2. Our Soul is the seat of self-consciousness - mind, will, emotions
3. Our Spirit is the seat of spirit world consciousness -

This makes no sense.

 

[The Biblicist]

Everything you posted here shows that the person speaking is speaking with a body and a spirit.

So it makes no difference whether the Biblical writers use the term "soul" or "spirit' because regardless of which one they use, you call them both "spirit"!!!

So, both the "soul/spirit" reside IN the body because these passages explicitly state the "soul/spirit" resides IN the body:

Ps 42:4 When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday.

Where is David's soul? "in me"

What can he do with it "pour out my soul"

Do you define the "soul" as something residing in your body that is characterized by emotions? These Biblical writers do!

 

[Moriah]

So it makes no difference whether the Biblical writers use the term "soul" or "spirit' because regardless of which one they use, you call them both "spirit"!!!

Why do you say that which is not true? I said the soul is a living person, and a spirit is about the person whether or not alive in the body.

So, both the "soul/spirit" reside IN the body because these passages explicitly state the "soul/spirit" resides IN the bodys 42:4 When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday.

The reason that soul is used and not spirit in this scripture is because the person is speaking of them self in a very human way, so soul must be used. Consider if the person said I pour out my spirit in my body…you would then imagine a spirit actually coming out of the body.

Do you define the "soul" as something residing in your body that is characterized by emotions? These Biblical writers do!

You know that I do…and I have explained to you that when we die and go to heaven, that our spirit goes and has the same ability to feel emotions. With your explanation, I do not understand what you are saying when you say the spirit and the soul goes to heaven. That does not make sense, for only one thing goes not two. We do not have two separate parts that live on after the death of the body.

 

[Moriah]

So it makes no difference whether the Biblical writers use the term "soul" or "spirit' because regardless of which one they use, you call them both "spirit"!!!

So, both the "soul/spirit" reside IN the body because these passages explicitly state the "soul/spirit" resides IN the body:

Ps 42:4 When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday.

Where is David's soul? "in me"

What can he do with it "pour out my soul"

Do you define the "soul" as something residing in your body that is characterized by emotions? These Biblical writers do!

To say I pour out my soul is as if saying my heart inside me is breaking...remember, when saying soul, it is not only speaking of the spirit within, it is also speaking of the body, even the inside of the body, such as the heart.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I am of the opinion that the words soul and spirit can and are used interchangeably in Scripture for the inner man.

 

[Moriah]

I am of the opinion that the words soul and spirit can and are used interchangeably in Scripture for the inner man.

I think that I can easily agree with that. As long as the person is alive.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think that I can easily agree with that. As long as the person is alive.

Hebrews 4:12 demands that there is now a present distiction between "spirit" and the "soul" as much as there is a distinction between "joints" and "morrow." The Word of God distinguishes between them right now in the present existence of the human nature and so should you.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 demands that the "spirit" is not the "soul" and the neither are the "body" but all three are to be distinguished from each other as constituent aspects that as a "WHOLE" are subject to PRESENT sanctification and eternally will be preserved blameless.

Both "spirit" and "soul" are in substance immaterial or spirit but the are different in function.

Mt 10:28 demands that the "soul" continues to exist apart from a living body and the only way you can escape that is to CHANGE the Lord's words from "soul" to "spirit" and that is exactly what you do.

 

[Moriah]

Hebrews 4:12 demands that there is now a present distiction between "spirit" and the "soul" as much as there is a distinction between "joints" and "morrow." The Word of God distinguishes between them right now in the present existence of the human nature and so should you.

There is a distinction between spirit and soul, and I have been telling you what it is.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 demands that the "spirit" is not the "soul" and the neither are the "body" but all three are to be distinguished from each other as constituent aspects that as a "WHOLE" are subject to PRESENT sanctification and eternally will be preserved blameless.

You just repeat anything to try to sound knowledgeable.

Mt 10:28 demands that the "soul" continues to exist apart from a living body and the only way you can escape that is to CHANGE the Lord's words from "soul" to "spirit" and that is exactly what you do.

I understand that you do not understand.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hebrews 4:12 demands that there is now a present distiction between "spirit" and the "soul" as much as there is a distinction between "joints" and "morrow." The Word of God distinguishes between them right now in the present existence of the human nature and so should you.

There is a distinction between spirit and soul, and I have been telling you what it is.

You just repeat anything to try to sound knowledgeable.

I understand that you do not understand.

I understand you ignore, avoid and distort the Biblical evidence presented to you. You can't respond to it intelligently so you simply choose to make personal derogatory remarks.

 

[Moriah]

Hebrews 4:12 demands that there is now a present distiction between "spirit" and the "soul" as much as there is a distinction between "joints" and "morrow." The Word of God distinguishes between them right now in the present existence of the human nature and so should you.

I understand you ignore, avoid and distort the Biblical evidence presented to you. You can't respond to it intelligently so you simply choose to make personal derogatory remarks.

No, that is what you do, stop accusing me of doing things that you do. I have explained it repeatedly to you. I have shown you the distinction of the spirit and the soul. The soul is a spirit with a living body. The spirit can be spoken of by itself, whether or not in a physical body.
You do not even try to examine what I say because you only have your mind set on going against me to defend your religion.
Now, explain to the readers what the difference is between the spirit and the soul. Why have you not explained it after all this time?

 

[The Biblicist]

The soul is a spirit with a living body.

False! Matthew 10:28 refutes that. 1 Thes. 5:23 refutes that. Hebrews 4:12 refutes that. All these texts deny that the "soul IS a spirit with a living body" because the "soul" can exist when the body is dead. Because the "spirit" is distinguished from the "soul" in a living body and the "body" is distinguished from both. Mt. 10:28 deals with two time periods (1) the Here and NOw "fear not man which can kill the body but cannot kill the soul; (2) The Hereafter and future - "but fear God who can destroy both soul and body. You wrongly try to take the first phrase in place it in the time zone of the second phrase - eisgesis at its very best.


Refer to my post on the other thread.

 

[Moriah]

False! Matthew 10:28 refutes that.

Answer the question. When does God ever throw someone’s physical body in Hell? Do you not like the Truth?

1 Thes. 5:23 refutes that. Hebrews 4:12 refutes that. All these texts deny that the "soul IS a spirit with a living body" because the "soul" can exist when the body is dead.

The soul is the spirit with a body, and it cannot exist as a living soul when the physical body is dead. I gave you scripture that even tells us this. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Because the "spirit" is distinguished from the "soul" in a living body and the "body" is distinguished from both. Mt. 10:28 deals with two time periods (1) the Here and NOw "fear not man which can kill the body but cannot kill the soul; (2) The Hereafter and future - "but fear God who can destroy both soul and body. You wrongly try to take the first phrase in place it in the time zone of the second phrase - eisgesis at its very best. Refer to my post on the other thread.

God does not throw people body and soul into Hell until after the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[The Biblicist]

Answer the question. When does God ever throw someone’s physical body in Hell? Do you not like the Truth?


The soul is the spirit with a body, and it cannot exist as a living soul when the physical body is dead. I gave you scripture that even tells us this. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



God does not throw people body and soul into Hell until after the Great White Throne Judgment.

This conversation is hopeless for several reasons. You ask me to explain the substance and function of the human "spirit" in contrast to the human "soul" and I have. The substance is the same as the soul - immaterial. The function is different from the soul but not separated from the soul. However, when I do explain what I mean, you deny it and then turn around complain that I did not explain it. What you really mean is that I did not explain it in a way you will accept it.

You are so confused about the two different time frames concerning the two different phrases in Matthew 10:28 it is impossible to explain it to you.

The phrase "fear not man who can kill the body but not the soul" has a time frame of RIGHT NOW before the coming of Christ. RIGHT NOW man can kill the body and RIGHT NOW man cannot kill the soul. Thus killing the body does not kill the soul RIGHT NOW.

However, if your definition is true that RIGHT NOW the soul by definition IS a spirit in the body which makes it LIVING, thus a LIVING SOUL then to put the body to death would mean it CEASES TO BE LIVING and thus when man KILLED THE BODY he also caused it to CEASE BEING A LIVING SOUL and thereore destroyed THE LIVING SOUL when he DESTROYED THE BODY.

THAT IS WHAT MAN CAN DO RIGHT NOW WHEN HE KILLS THE BODY HE TERMINATES THE LIVING SOUL by your own definition because it is impossible to have a LIVING SOUL without also have a SPIRIT IN THE BODY as that is what you define to be a LIVING SOUL - Correct! Thus to terminate the life of the body would separate the spirit from the body and thus make it CEASE BEING A LIVING SOUL - thus man by killing the body destroys the LIVING SOUL because when he kills the body it CEASES TO BE A LIVING SOUL by your definition.

However, by my definition the soul is not the spirit in the body but by my definition the spirit is DIFFERENT the soul but both dwell together IN THE BODY as two aspects the IMMATERIAL NATURE of man. Thus when man kills the body he does not make the soul to cease or the spirit to cease because the soul IS NOT the spirit in the body but both spirit and soul can exist in and outside of the body just as God's soul (immaterial will, mind, emotions = personality) and God's "Spirit" (immaterial divine nature and attributes) dwell outside a body.

 

[Moriah]

This conversation is hopeless for several reasons. You ask me to explain the substance and function of the human "spirit" in contrast to the human "soul" and I have. The substance is the same as the soul - immaterial. The function is different from the soul but not separated from the soul. However, when I do explain what I mean, you deny it and then turn around complain that I did not explain it. What you really mean is that I did not explain it in a way you will accept it.

You have not explained what a spirit is. I will explain it clearly and simply for you. For instance, my spirit looks exactly like me, the outside body of me. The spirit is not material to where you can touch it, though it can sit, stand, and it can speak. It can also think, feel emotions, and reason. That is our spirit. When it is in its physical body, it is a soul, a living soul equipped in a human body to live on an earthy world.
Now, you explain what a spirit is. The only thing you have said so far about what a spirit is, is that it is not the part that thinks, and feels. You said it is not material, and that it is above the mind. That is NOT explaining what a spirit is. You still give no understanding to what a spirit is with those definitions.

The phrase "fear not man who can kill the body but not the soul" has a time frame of RIGHT NOW before the coming of Christ. RIGHT NOW man can kill the body and RIGHT NOW man cannot kill the soul. Thus killing the body does not kill the soul RIGHT NOW.

I have explained that very thing to you, that man can kill the body but not the soul. Where do you get that I have ever said differently concerning that? That is your misunderstanding that I have said anything different concerning that part.

However, if your definition is true that RIGHT NOW the soul by definition IS a spirit in the body which makes it LIVING, thus a LIVING SOUL then to put the body to death would mean it CEASES TO BE LIVING and thus when man KILLED THE BODY he also caused it to CEASE BEING A LIVING SOUL and thereore destroyed THE LIVING SOUL when he DESTROYED THE BODY.

Do you not believe that we are living souls? I quoted Genesis that say that we are living souls.

I will turn your exact question back to you that you asked me, and then maybe you can see that what you say does not explain anything.
Here is your question to me, but turned around to say what you say a soul is:
However, if your definition is true that RIGHT NOW the soul by definition IS the body WITH the mind, thus a LIVING SOUL then to put the body to death would mean it CEASES TO BE LIVING and thus when man KILLED THE BODY he also caused it to CEASE BEING A LIVING SOUL and therefore destroyed THE LVING SOUL when he DESTROYED THE BODY.

Now, Biblicist, do you not see that your questioning and argument against me is also against you?