standingfirminChrist
New Member
Now, Claudia...
I thought yer last post said it was your last post.
I thought yer last post said it was your last post.
-
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SOULS DIE
- Thread starter wopik
- Start date
The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.
ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.
I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.
EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age, perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.
As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal and forever in the new testament, do not necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that when speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that
there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves. If I were to believe this, then I would not have any sure word to place my faith in.
There are those who would rather believe that God will punish the wicked for eternity. They will completely ignore the scriptures that conclusively state the opposite of what they believe, without ever trying to explain them. Clinging rather to any scripture that in any way might support this false doctrine.
These people do not know God. They believe that God created countless millions of people, knowing that He would be miraculously sustaining them throughout the endless ages of eternity, just to burn them in fire so that they could suffer unimaginably forever. Ten billion trillion years from now it will still be like its just beginning for them. This is the God they worship. A God far worse than Satan himself ever was.
They have played right into the devils hand by believing his first lie to humanity, that we shall not surely die. Thus the wicked must be punished forever, thus God is a worse tyrant than any other that has ever existed. They have no real understanding of the love of God, revealed through His Son Jesus Christ. By this false doctrine they pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ, and completely malign the character of God. With this, the Devil is well pleased.
Here are some scriptures that they will not explain.
Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked [[d]shall perish,[/b] and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mal 4:1-6 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Ezek 28:11-22 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.
I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.
EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age, perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.
As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal and forever in the new testament, do not necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that when speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that
there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves. If I were to believe this, then I would not have any sure word to place my faith in.
There are those who would rather believe that God will punish the wicked for eternity. They will completely ignore the scriptures that conclusively state the opposite of what they believe, without ever trying to explain them. Clinging rather to any scripture that in any way might support this false doctrine.
These people do not know God. They believe that God created countless millions of people, knowing that He would be miraculously sustaining them throughout the endless ages of eternity, just to burn them in fire so that they could suffer unimaginably forever. Ten billion trillion years from now it will still be like its just beginning for them. This is the God they worship. A God far worse than Satan himself ever was.
They have played right into the devils hand by believing his first lie to humanity, that we shall not surely die. Thus the wicked must be punished forever, thus God is a worse tyrant than any other that has ever existed. They have no real understanding of the love of God, revealed through His Son Jesus Christ. By this false doctrine they pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ, and completely malign the character of God. With this, the Devil is well pleased.
Here are some scriptures that they will not explain.
Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked [[d]shall perish,[/b] and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mal 4:1-6 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Ezek 28:11-22 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Funny he can read a partial definition and not the reat?
LOL
Eternal Torment means just that eternal torment.
LOL
Eternal Torment means just that eternal torment.
Kamoroso,
I read over your lengthy post. Just one thing:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What part of the expression "forever and ever" do you not understand?
I read over your lengthy post. Just one thing:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What part of the expression "forever and ever" do you not understand?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
The fact that the same greek term in Rev 20:10 for 'forever and ever' is the same greek term in Rev. 1:6 in which Jesus Christ is said to reign forever and ever proves that it is not just a short time. When Jesus takes the throne, the throne is His. No one shall dethrone Him. He will not leave the give up the throne.
Sorry Kamaroso, yer false prophets have deceived you once again.
Sorry Kamaroso, yer false prophets have deceived you once again.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I am sorry if I seem too judgmental, DHK, but a true christian, a true follower of Christ does not believe the lies of annihilation and soul sleep.
That being said, how are they allowed to continue posting such blasphemy?
Saying that we do not know God? They deny the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ and we christians do not have the backbone to silence them by casting that false prophet out?
It is sad. Jesus said if they believe not our report, not to accept them. Yet here we are.
That being said, how are they allowed to continue posting such blasphemy?
Saying that we do not know God? They deny the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ and we christians do not have the backbone to silence them by casting that false prophet out?
It is sad. Jesus said if they believe not our report, not to accept them. Yet here we are.
It is just as I said. I gave an explanation for your Rev. 20:10. Even an example of eternal fire set forth in the scriptures itself. There can be no question at all, that the effects of eternal fire are complete destruction. Those cities which were burned by it no longer exist, and never will again. You choose to ignore this, and all the other scriptures that conclusively contradict what you believe.
You make no attempt what so ever, to explain them. This is because you know that they can't be explained without making the bible completely contradict itself if it is teaching what you believe. You don't care about this though. The only thing that matters to you, is that you are right. You will tarnish the word of God just so you won't have to admit that you are wrong. I tell you the truth, this is no small thing to God.
You are creating confusion regarding the teachings of the word of God. This is exactly what the Devil does. This is exactly what he did in the garden. God said one thing, and he said another. Through his lie, causing confusion, Adam and eve fell, and we have all been suffering the concequences ever since.
There is a truth, and there is a lie. Choosing to believe a lie, separates us from God. This is obvious, since this is exactly what happened in the garden when Adam and Eve decided to believe the Devils lie over God's truth. This is the exact issue we are debating now. Who we choose to believe will have the exact same consequences. It is no small thing to choose to believe a lie.
Unless you will at least attempt to explain away all the scriptures that conclusively contradict what you are teaching, I can see no reason to continue this conversation. Since you simply choose to ignore all that youi don't want to agree with, I will simply ignore you. Explain why the scriptures I have given don't mean what they are saying. Otherwise, I wipe the dust from my feet.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
You make no attempt what so ever, to explain them. This is because you know that they can't be explained without making the bible completely contradict itself if it is teaching what you believe. You don't care about this though. The only thing that matters to you, is that you are right. You will tarnish the word of God just so you won't have to admit that you are wrong. I tell you the truth, this is no small thing to God.
You are creating confusion regarding the teachings of the word of God. This is exactly what the Devil does. This is exactly what he did in the garden. God said one thing, and he said another. Through his lie, causing confusion, Adam and eve fell, and we have all been suffering the concequences ever since.
There is a truth, and there is a lie. Choosing to believe a lie, separates us from God. This is obvious, since this is exactly what happened in the garden when Adam and Eve decided to believe the Devils lie over God's truth. This is the exact issue we are debating now. Who we choose to believe will have the exact same consequences. It is no small thing to choose to believe a lie.
Unless you will at least attempt to explain away all the scriptures that conclusively contradict what you are teaching, I can see no reason to continue this conversation. Since you simply choose to ignore all that youi don't want to agree with, I will simply ignore you. Explain why the scriptures I have given don't mean what they are saying. Otherwise, I wipe the dust from my feet.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Kamoroso,
The scriptures have been explained over and over in this thread. But you, Claudia, and wopik refuse to accept the truth set forth in God's Word.
The scriptures have been explained over and over in this thread. But you, Claudia, and wopik refuse to accept the truth set forth in God's Word.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Kamoroso,
What part of everlasting (perpetual, without end) punishment (penal infliction, torment) do you not understand?
It is not me you ignore, you ignore the Words of Christ. Ellen G White has you so blinded to the truth.
What part of everlasting (perpetual, without end) punishment (penal infliction, torment) do you not understand?
It is not me you ignore, you ignore the Words of Christ. Ellen G White has you so blinded to the truth.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
It is quite obvious since Jesus said they would be tormented for eternity, then the verses you are trying to use mean something entirely different than that which you claim.
No sir, they have not been explained. You simply give a scripture that you say contradicts it, and then say so it isn’t true. This is not sufficient. I can, and do, do the same. In fact, I have many more scriptures to prove my point than you do. Tell me, how does the word perish, not mean perish? How does the bible saying that the wicked will no longer exist, mean that the wicked will exist? How does the bible saying that Satan himself shall never exist again, mean that he will exist forever? How does the bible saying that the dead have no thoughts, mean that the dead are conscious living spiritual beings? They don’t even praise God. Their thoughts perish, how can their thoughts perish if they are conscious living spiritual beings?The scriptures have been explained over and over in this thread. But you, Claudia, and wopik refuse to accept the truth set forth in God's Word.
I understand that the Greek lexicon says that the words in question above don’t always mean eternity. A fact that you completely ignore. You will not even acknowledge the truth of it. You do not even care if the word of God contradicts itself, but only that you can be right. Thus you are willing to ignore all that doesn’t fit what you want to believe. I am not the one who does not understand brother. You are the one who will not even acknowledge that the Greek Lexicon definition allows for a definition that does not make the bible contradict itself.What part of everlasting (perpetual, without end) punishment (penal infliction, torment) do you not understand?
EGW did not invent what I believe. It is biblical, and it was believed by many for ages before she was ever born.It is not me you ignore, you ignore the Words of Christ. Ellen G White has you so blinded to the truth.
This is not sufficient. I can do the same thing.It is quite obvious since Jesus said they would be tormented for eternity, then the verses you are trying to use mean something entirely different than that which you claim.
John 3:14-16 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
standingfirminChrist
New Member
</font>
Mortal man (both righteous and unrighteous receives immortality at their resurrection 1 Cor. 15:53
If the wicked are made immortal upon their resurrection, they cannot be annihilated in the lake of fire.
- Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego</font>
- The Burning Bush
Fact: God can do all things. If He could keep the 3 Hebrew men from burning and the tree from burning, He certainly can keep the soul from annihilation.</font>
Mortal man (both righteous and unrighteous receives immortality at their resurrection 1 Cor. 15:53
If the wicked are made immortal upon their resurrection, they cannot be annihilated in the lake of fire.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
The foolish thinking of annihilation can easily be refuted by logic as well.
Those who do not believe in an everlasting torment think so foolishly when one asks this question...
Why would God raise the wicked dead just to destroy them? They are already incapacitated in the grave, turned to dust. So there would be no need to raise them just to turn them to dust again.
No, God raises the dead in an immortal state and they stand before His throne where they are tried, found guilty, and sentenced to eternity in the torments of the lake of fire.
Those who do not believe in an everlasting torment think so foolishly when one asks this question...
Why would God raise the wicked dead just to destroy them? They are already incapacitated in the grave, turned to dust. So there would be no need to raise them just to turn them to dust again.
No, God raises the dead in an immortal state and they stand before His throne where they are tried, found guilty, and sentenced to eternity in the torments of the lake of fire.
Heb 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Why would God raise the wicked dead just to destroy them? They are already incapacitated in the grave, turned to dust. So there would be no need to raise them just to turn them to dust again.
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
They are resurrected to face the judgment of God. To die the second death in the lake of fire.
No, God raises only the saved to immortal life, thus all of the promises to this effect. The wicked are not raised immortal. They are raised to face judgment, which God alone can pass upon them. They will suffer what He has determined. Their punishment will be by fire.No, God raises the dead in an immortal state and they stand before His throne where they are tried, found guilty, and sentenced to eternity in the torments of the lake of fire.
Mark 1029And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
John 314And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 6Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 10 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 17 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Romans 2 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 5 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Timothy 6 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Titus 1 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 John 2 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 5 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Matthew 19 29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
John 3 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 5 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life.
Galatians 6 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
1 Timothy 1 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Eternal life is promised over and over again to the saved. It is never promised to the wicked. The bible repeatedly says that the wicked will perish. A fact that you have still refused to address at all. How do all the verses that I shared before saying the wicked will utterly perish, really mean that they will live forever in hell?
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Everlastin Punishment - words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Everlasting punishment - perpetual torment.
All will be raised incorruptible. Both wicked and righteous. That is why the wicked suffer perpetual torment in the lake of fire. Jesus said , 'where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.' Their worm dieth not - it is funny their maggots don't die, but they do? God certainly will keep them alive just like their maggots. And they will feel that gnawing, they will gnash their teeth, they will feel the fires; they will cry for relief but will find none, just as the rich man.
Everlastin Punishment - words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Everlasting punishment - perpetual torment.
All will be raised incorruptible. Both wicked and righteous. That is why the wicked suffer perpetual torment in the lake of fire. Jesus said , 'where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.' Their worm dieth not - it is funny their maggots don't die, but they do? God certainly will keep them alive just like their maggots. And they will feel that gnawing, they will gnash their teeth, they will feel the fires; they will cry for relief but will find none, just as the rich man.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
So take your choice. But be careful about the context. It is obvious that the "dead body" in Numbers 19:13 refers to the "breathing creature" referred to in one of the first definitions given in the list for "nephesh." Context demands it.Originally posted by DHK:
Words have different meanings. Only context can determine the proper meaning of the word at any given time. This is true for the word "nephesh" or soul, as it is with many other words in the Old and New Testament. Most often in the Old Testament the word soul is used to refer to the mind, the heart, the seat of our affections, but not always.
Here is the definition(s) of "nephesh."
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> nephesh neh'-fesh
from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Being somewhat a student of Hebrew, I can tell you that this is especially true of the Hebrew Language. Context, sometimes can mean all the difference in the world.
Joseph Botwinick
DHK wrote:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse clearly teaches that man is a tri-partite being: body, soul and spirit. That means that there is a difference between the soul and the spirit. What is the difference? The sould will die along with body. It is part of the physical body. Now I say this speaking generally, realizing that sometimes soul and spirit are used interchangeably depending on the context, for soul has more than one meaning. One must always keep that in mind.
But generally speaking in the Bible here is what we find.
Soul is identified with the heart, bowels of mercy, the mind, the seat of affections, the place wehre our decisions are made, the conscious part of our being. That is the soul.
It is well-known that when a person is brain-dead he is declared dead. His body no longer functions. Machines can keep his body functioning, his brain somewhat active at a low level. But basically he is dead. Take him off the machines and he is dead. His soul dies with him. For his soul is his brain, the heart, the mind, the activie part of the body where all the decisions are made. If the brain is dead, so is the soul. Let's look at the Scripture:
Matthew 15:18-19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--Out of the heart proceeds all of these evil things. Out of your mind, you dwell on adulterous thoughts, and hatred, envy, covetousness, and all kinds of sin. It is in your mind. That is where the battle is. The soul is the mind.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--With the mind I serve the law of God.
It is not the spirit but the mind that I choose to serve the Lord. I make a conscientious decision to serve God or the devil. You choose. That is what Paul is saying. The soul is equated with the mind, the heart--every time.
On the other hand the spirit lives forever. It is eternal. It will live either in Hell or in Heaven for all eternity. It is not the soul (the brain), but the spirit that lives forever.
When the body dies it is the spirit of that body that separates from the body and goes to heaven or hell.
standingfirminChrist
posted March 18, 2006 02:54 AM
I would have to say the soul is the life force rather than the mind. Genesis 2:7 tells us after God formed man from the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The soul is the very breath of God. That which gives us life.
I found it ironic that people were tying to prove trichotomy to the Millerites here, when it is actually the traditional Church that has blurred the soul and spirit to the point of often becoming dichotomist, and the above statements show.posted March 18, 2006 03:00 PM
The Body has a soul, wopik. Look at the account in 1 Kings 17:22 in the Old Testament...
Most people who condemn the Millerites [SDA's, offshoots, and JW's collectively] argue for an immortal "soul", but now it is being admitted the soul "dies", but it is the "spirit" that forms the person after death. Most others, I believe, lump the soul and spirit together after death. The Millerites do acknowledge the difference since they believe the body "goes back to the dust", the soul sleeps, and the spirit "goes back to God who gave it" (Eccl.12:7)
On one hand, you point out that what will be immortal, or the "building made of God" will be the new resurrection body, but in the last paragraph, you are saying it is a spirit that floats free between both bodies that makes us "immortal".Man is a spirit being. The spirit is eternal. The body is temporary. This is how Paul explainst it:
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
--“This earthly house of this tabernacle”
All of these words indicate temporality.
This tabernacle or tent is a termporary living place. It isn’t even a house that we live in, only a tent—something very temporary. Paul says that it will be dissolved. We are spirit beings housed in a temporary tent that will some day be destroyed.
Secondly, he says we have a building, a house that is not made with hands eternal in the heavens. This refers to another body that we can look forward to being clothed with—something more permanent, in fact something eternal. It is eternal in the heavens.
2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
--What does Paul mean here?
“We groan…desiring to be clothed.” This is an earnest desire. He wants to be clothed with his eternal body. Why? Because Paul is a spirit being clothed in an earthly temporary body, and wanting to be clothed in an eternal glorified body.
This earthly body “groans.” It is in pain. It is subject to decay and sickness. Paul awaits being clothed upon with an eternal body made in the heavens.
2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
--Someday we will die. This body will decay and go back into ashes. The spirit will go to heaven or hell. But it will not remain “naked” as Paul says. It will be clothed. It will receive a resurrected body. We will not be found naked. We will be clothed upon with a glorified body. BTW this truth applies to the unsaved as well.
2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
--Again Paul speaks about groaning in this body—a sign of pain and decay of this earthly body. But in our celestial bodies there will be no pain (providing you are saved).
Note that mortality will be swallowed up. What does that mean. If mortality is swallowed up, then all that is left is immortality. Man (both saved and unsaved) are immortal spirit beings. Depending on their choice of receiving or rejecting Christ, they will live forever—either in eternal separation from God, or in the eternal presence of God.
Also, if you seem to be applying the promise of the "building made of God" to both saved and unsaved. But the unsaved receive no such good promise, so the Millerites here are right that you are granting them the same kind of "eternal life" as us, but only making it bad.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
--There is only one of two choices with the believer. If we are here in the body we are absent from Heaven, absent from the Lord.
However, if we are absent from the body, then we are present with the Lord. There is no soul sleep. We are either on earth in our bodies or in heaven with the Lord. Our spirits are eternal. We are spirit beings. There is no purgatory. (a form of soul sleep except your punished at the same time)
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--Paul is confident of this truth; confident that there is no soul sleep; confident that when he dies he will be with the Lord. When he died he was beheaded and his body was buried. But he (his spirit) went to be with the Lord. He is present with the Lord at this very moment. Paul was and is confident of that very thing. Hie is present with the Lord. There is no such thing as soul sleep according to Paul. There can’t be. We are spirit beings. We have immortality: whether saved or unsaved.
DHK
But these statements place our hope in some disembodied state, ignoring the resurrection. Note one of the last quotes from 2Cor. above: the hope is "not ...to be UNclothed (disembodied), but to be FURTHER clothed, (restored body) so that mortality (death) may be swallowed up by life". (v.4) Further proof, in v.10, he talks about the Judgment seat of Christ, where we receive the rewards for what we have done "in the body". Rather than proving that this is what the disembodied souls will be doing while "waiting" for their new bodies, it is shown in Matthew 16:27 that this judgment is after the return of Christ, (when the righteous are raised). It will be the same body, but being incorruptible, will be different. So Paul can describe it in these scriptures as being "out of the [present, corruptible] body". A statement I hear from pastors and teachers often that the soul&spirit is "the part of you that lives forever" —the "real you". But do you see what has happened? The RESURRECTION is completely eliminated! When the body is resurrected, it too will live forever. We teach that the body is just a "shell" or "casing", but the Bible describes the person as dying, and the person as being resurrected.JFox1
posted March 18, 2006 10:11 PM
Good points, DHK. St. Paul also wrote, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21 NASB. Paul is not referring to soul sleep because if that were the case, he would gain nothing by dying. He knew that when he died, he would be with Christ, "which is far better."
Also worthy of note is this statement from an early Church writer:
177 AD Athenagoras the Athenian, Chapter XVI--Analogy of Death and Sleep, and Consequent Argument for the Resurrection.
And let no one think it strange that we call by the name of life a continuance of being which is interrupted by death and corruption; but let him consider rather that this word has not one meaning only, nor is there only one measure of continuance, because the nature also of the things that continue is not one. For if each of the things that continue has its continuance according to its peculiar nature, neither in the case of those who are wholly incorruptible and immortal shall we find the continuance like ours, because the natures of superior beings do not take the level of such as are inferior; nor in men is it proper to look for a continuance invariable and unchangeable; in as much as the former are from the first created immortal, and continue to exist without end by the simple will of their Maker, and men, in respect of the soul, have from their first origin an unchangeable continuance, but in respect of the body obtain immortality by means of change. This is what is meant by the doctrine of the resurrection; and, looking to this, we both await the dissolution of the body, as the sequel to a life of want and corruption, and after this we hope for a continuance with immortality, not putting either our death on a level with the death of the irrational animals, or the continuance of man with the continuance of immortals, lest we should unawares in this way put human nature and life on a level with things with which it is not proper to compare them. It ought not, therefore, to excite dissatisfaction, if some inequality appears to exist in regard to the duration of men; nor, because the separation of the soul from the members of the body and the dissolution of its parts interrupts the continuity of life, must we therefore despair of the resurrection. For although the relaxation of the senses and of the physical powers, which naturally takes place in sleep, seems to interrupt the sensational life when men sleep at equal intervals of time, and, as it were, come back to life again, yet we do not refuse to call it life; and for this reason, I suppose, some call sleep the brother of death, not as deriving their origin from the same ancestors and fathers, but because those who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life. If, therefore, we do not refuse to call by the name of life the life of men full of such inequality from birth to dissolution, and interrupted by all those things which we have before mentioned, neither ought we to despair of the life succeeding to dissolution, such as involves the resurrection, although for a time it is interrupted by the separation of the soul from the body.
----------------------------
So according to this, the Millerites may be wrong in saying that the person "ceases to exist", but the traditionalists are wrong to assume, then, that the dead have all their senses —"the continuance of immortals", just like before death or after the resurrection (which once again is looked on as the real hope by this passage, but would be rendered unnecessary otherwise.). This interpretation also sheds further light on passages like Luke 20:37,8 and Rev.6:9-11. As the body is the receiver of all our senses in the world, so must it be resurrected for us to get them all back.
Even still, there is not complete consensus among traditionalists regarding the intermediate state. It is generally spoken of as the time we shall enter eternal bliss and meet all our loved ones, but now some teachers, seeing the inconsistencies with the scriptures teaching Resurrection as our hope, are now saying we won't see each other; we'll just be in some sort of fellowship with God only. So it seems almost as if we won't have all our senses after all, but still, this is not explained in detail. And of course, no scripture discusses all of this.
We refer to death as "going into eternity" (a state beyond our time and space), yet still insist that the dead then continue to perceive the same earth years, days, etc. as we do. (e.g.--if the apostle John died around A.D. 100 , he counts exactly 1900 years in the presence of God). And thus, the first death becomes the same as our eternal existence, and is treated as such. The resurrection thus becomes completely unnecessary, and is often even left out of discussions/teaching on life after the grave. (e.g.-- "only the soul lives forever")
And for either side to be saying that the other is lost is ridiculous. Especially the traditionaist side, with its charges that the Millerites are "spreading Satan's lies", or "finding out themselves that it is not true" (i.e. going to Hell just for teaching soul sleep). There are scriptures that appear to teach either view of the first death, in different places, and the trick is to find out how they harmonize, and I'm sorry, but the Millerites have the edge on this one. There are more clear scriptures on their side, (like the ones they have been giving) while the scriptures the traditionalist side keeps using boil down to Lazarus, OT references to Sheol, and non-sequiturs like above "To live is Christ; to die is gain", etc). But these either are misunderstood, or at least allow for a different meaning. (symbolic, etc.) They then try to dismiss the proof for the other side. Ecclesiastes, for instance is said to be "just the frustrations of a man without Christ", while equally dismissing the explnation of their proof texts. But where does it say that he in his frustration is uttering metaphysically untrue statements? What was the view of the man under the sun, was that this was the end of it all, their love, hatred, envy, portions. etc. were "perished...for ever" (v.6). With all of the pictures of Sheol, the universal question for that dispensation remained: "If a man dies, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14). God's answer came in the New Testament!
In something as debatable as this, to claim to have so disproven the other side that they are "rejecting Christ" and "believing Satan's lies" is totally wrong. They're not Satan's lies just because someone insists "I say my proof text is metaphysically literal, while theirs is not".
177 AD Athenagoras the Athenian, Chapter XVI--Analogy of Death and Sleep, and Consequent Argument for the Resurrection.
And let no one think it strange that we call by the name of life a continuance of being which is interrupted by death and corruption; but let him consider rather that this word has not one meaning only, nor is there only one measure of continuance, because the nature also of the things that continue is not one. For if each of the things that continue has its continuance according to its peculiar nature, neither in the case of those who are wholly incorruptible and immortal shall we find the continuance like ours, because the natures of superior beings do not take the level of such as are inferior; nor in men is it proper to look for a continuance invariable and unchangeable; in as much as the former are from the first created immortal, and continue to exist without end by the simple will of their Maker, and men, in respect of the soul, have from their first origin an unchangeable continuance, but in respect of the body obtain immortality by means of change. This is what is meant by the doctrine of the resurrection; and, looking to this, we both await the dissolution of the body, as the sequel to a life of want and corruption, and after this we hope for a continuance with immortality, not putting either our death on a level with the death of the irrational animals, or the continuance of man with the continuance of immortals, lest we should unawares in this way put human nature and life on a level with things with which it is not proper to compare them. It ought not, therefore, to excite dissatisfaction, if some inequality appears to exist in regard to the duration of men; nor, because the separation of the soul from the members of the body and the dissolution of its parts interrupts the continuity of life, must we therefore despair of the resurrection. For although the relaxation of the senses and of the physical powers, which naturally takes place in sleep, seems to interrupt the sensational life when men sleep at equal intervals of time, and, as it were, come back to life again, yet we do not refuse to call it life; and for this reason, I suppose, some call sleep the brother of death, not as deriving their origin from the same ancestors and fathers, but because those who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life. If, therefore, we do not refuse to call by the name of life the life of men full of such inequality from birth to dissolution, and interrupted by all those things which we have before mentioned, neither ought we to despair of the life succeeding to dissolution, such as involves the resurrection, although for a time it is interrupted by the separation of the soul from the body.
----------------------------
So according to this, the Millerites may be wrong in saying that the person "ceases to exist", but the traditionalists are wrong to assume, then, that the dead have all their senses —"the continuance of immortals", just like before death or after the resurrection (which once again is looked on as the real hope by this passage, but would be rendered unnecessary otherwise.). This interpretation also sheds further light on passages like Luke 20:37,8 and Rev.6:9-11. As the body is the receiver of all our senses in the world, so must it be resurrected for us to get them all back.
Even still, there is not complete consensus among traditionalists regarding the intermediate state. It is generally spoken of as the time we shall enter eternal bliss and meet all our loved ones, but now some teachers, seeing the inconsistencies with the scriptures teaching Resurrection as our hope, are now saying we won't see each other; we'll just be in some sort of fellowship with God only. So it seems almost as if we won't have all our senses after all, but still, this is not explained in detail. And of course, no scripture discusses all of this.
We refer to death as "going into eternity" (a state beyond our time and space), yet still insist that the dead then continue to perceive the same earth years, days, etc. as we do. (e.g.--if the apostle John died around A.D. 100 , he counts exactly 1900 years in the presence of God). And thus, the first death becomes the same as our eternal existence, and is treated as such. The resurrection thus becomes completely unnecessary, and is often even left out of discussions/teaching on life after the grave. (e.g.-- "only the soul lives forever")
And for either side to be saying that the other is lost is ridiculous. Especially the traditionaist side, with its charges that the Millerites are "spreading Satan's lies", or "finding out themselves that it is not true" (i.e. going to Hell just for teaching soul sleep). There are scriptures that appear to teach either view of the first death, in different places, and the trick is to find out how they harmonize, and I'm sorry, but the Millerites have the edge on this one. There are more clear scriptures on their side, (like the ones they have been giving) while the scriptures the traditionalist side keeps using boil down to Lazarus, OT references to Sheol, and non-sequiturs like above "To live is Christ; to die is gain", etc). But these either are misunderstood, or at least allow for a different meaning. (symbolic, etc.) They then try to dismiss the proof for the other side. Ecclesiastes, for instance is said to be "just the frustrations of a man without Christ", while equally dismissing the explnation of their proof texts. But where does it say that he in his frustration is uttering metaphysically untrue statements? What was the view of the man under the sun, was that this was the end of it all, their love, hatred, envy, portions. etc. were "perished...for ever" (v.6). With all of the pictures of Sheol, the universal question for that dispensation remained: "If a man dies, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14). God's answer came in the New Testament!
In something as debatable as this, to claim to have so disproven the other side that they are "rejecting Christ" and "believing Satan's lies" is totally wrong. They're not Satan's lies just because someone insists "I say my proof text is metaphysically literal, while theirs is not".
Eric,
Yor raise some valid points. I am not going to respond to everything you said because it is quite lengthy. I agree that there are some evangelicals that dichotomists, while others are trichotomists. The terms "soul" and "spirit" are often used interchangeably. However the fact remains that the Bible distinctly teaches that there is life after death before the resurrection. This is what the SDA's deny. Paul was looking forwar to being "present with the Lord." Christ said to the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with me in paradise." Everywhere we look in the Bible there is an expectation of life after death--not some kind of "spirit-death" There is no such thing as soul sleep. It is a heretical doctrine. The SDA is a dichotomist. The soul and the spirit are one. Thus the soul, the spirit, and the body are all dead. Sleep means death. But the Bible teaches that the spirit is very much alive in heaven. If it isn't, what on earth did John see when he was in heaven? One of the scenes that he saw were those that were singing the songs of "the redeemed." It has been the belief of believers all throughout the ages that "gift of God is eternal life" which begins at the point of one's salvation, and doesn't stop at death and then begin again at the resurrection. That would defy the definition of "eternal."
DHK
Yor raise some valid points. I am not going to respond to everything you said because it is quite lengthy. I agree that there are some evangelicals that dichotomists, while others are trichotomists. The terms "soul" and "spirit" are often used interchangeably. However the fact remains that the Bible distinctly teaches that there is life after death before the resurrection. This is what the SDA's deny. Paul was looking forwar to being "present with the Lord." Christ said to the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with me in paradise." Everywhere we look in the Bible there is an expectation of life after death--not some kind of "spirit-death" There is no such thing as soul sleep. It is a heretical doctrine. The SDA is a dichotomist. The soul and the spirit are one. Thus the soul, the spirit, and the body are all dead. Sleep means death. But the Bible teaches that the spirit is very much alive in heaven. If it isn't, what on earth did John see when he was in heaven? One of the scenes that he saw were those that were singing the songs of "the redeemed." It has been the belief of believers all throughout the ages that "gift of God is eternal life" which begins at the point of one's salvation, and doesn't stop at death and then begin again at the resurrection. That would defy the definition of "eternal."
DHK
Well, Athenagoras didn't think "it ought... to excite dissatisfaction" if the "duration" of our "continuance" was interrupted. (2nd bolded statement, above). After all, that is only in our time (the living). To the person dying, it is all instantaneous, so why would it be any less to them? And God also sees it as "now". And remember, His "Kingdom" (the "paradise" the thief asked for) is after the resurrection. So in other words, "today" he would die, and then instantly be projected forward to the time of resurrection when he would enter the kingdom of God.
Once again, even if they were "with the Lord" in some inbetween period, God does not dwell in a "timeline" as we know it.
As for "absent from the body and present with the Lord", the Corinthians passage shows that this is actually another term for the resurrection; v.2:"we are CLOTHED with our HABITATION [margin: "dwelling"] which is from Heaven", when this earthly "house" (dwelling), or "tent", is destroyed. Then, the passage continues with the discussion you quoted yesterday, that a "disembodied" or "naked" state is NOT what our hope is for, but rather to be further "clothed", in which case [is the definition of] "mortality would be swallowed up in immortality".
Sometimes the new body is spoken of as a state separate from this current existence in our present ("corruptible") bodies (just like it is also called a "spiritual body", which some have thought referred to a "disembodied spirit").
With all of that yesterday; I forgot to add what to me is the clincher: 1 Cor.15:16, 17,18, in which the resurrection is pictured as our only hope: "If the dead rise not, then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen, then your faith is futile... then those who have fallen asleep in Christ ARE PERISHED!" This does not suggest they would be trapped in a lower "paradise" on the nice side of Hades, as is suggested. Even if you insist that people could live without the body, but God is just "redeeming" His physical creation still, there is no reconciliation with the above passage. We would all eventually meet each other and have some sort of communion with God in "Abraham's bosom", and this could hardly be described as "perishing".
Just think; what would be the purpose of a resurrection otherwise? The way people describe this "waiting place" for both righteous and unrighteous, it is no different from the heaven or hell after the resurrection, which would then be rendered nothing more than a unnecessary formality. If people could exist and enjoy heaven or suffer hell as "disembodied souls/spirits"; if that's actually the "real" person, then why wouldn't they just remain that way? Or why aren't the cartoons, comedies and other fictional works true: instead of two resurrections and judgements at definite times, their spirit "body" is instantly "resurrected" from the physical body and judged right then?
As far as what John saw in Heaven; he was taken "In Spirit" (vision) to "the Lord's Day", which was the future Kingdom irtself, so he saw what "would come to pass" (Rev. 1:1).
Also, are you sure the SDA's are dichotomist, or are you assuming that they lump the soul and spirit together just because they make them all dead. Armstrongism (from which wopik comes) I know definitely is trichotomist. The WCG's old "Good News" Magazine had an article 21 years ago called "What is Man?" that really broke it all down. I guess I assume that the SDA's are the same, as the arguments are the same, but then they do differe in many areas.
Once again, even if they were "with the Lord" in some inbetween period, God does not dwell in a "timeline" as we know it.
As for "absent from the body and present with the Lord", the Corinthians passage shows that this is actually another term for the resurrection; v.2:"we are CLOTHED with our HABITATION [margin: "dwelling"] which is from Heaven", when this earthly "house" (dwelling), or "tent", is destroyed. Then, the passage continues with the discussion you quoted yesterday, that a "disembodied" or "naked" state is NOT what our hope is for, but rather to be further "clothed", in which case [is the definition of] "mortality would be swallowed up in immortality".
Sometimes the new body is spoken of as a state separate from this current existence in our present ("corruptible") bodies (just like it is also called a "spiritual body", which some have thought referred to a "disembodied spirit").
With all of that yesterday; I forgot to add what to me is the clincher: 1 Cor.15:16, 17,18, in which the resurrection is pictured as our only hope: "If the dead rise not, then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen, then your faith is futile... then those who have fallen asleep in Christ ARE PERISHED!" This does not suggest they would be trapped in a lower "paradise" on the nice side of Hades, as is suggested. Even if you insist that people could live without the body, but God is just "redeeming" His physical creation still, there is no reconciliation with the above passage. We would all eventually meet each other and have some sort of communion with God in "Abraham's bosom", and this could hardly be described as "perishing".
Just think; what would be the purpose of a resurrection otherwise? The way people describe this "waiting place" for both righteous and unrighteous, it is no different from the heaven or hell after the resurrection, which would then be rendered nothing more than a unnecessary formality. If people could exist and enjoy heaven or suffer hell as "disembodied souls/spirits"; if that's actually the "real" person, then why wouldn't they just remain that way? Or why aren't the cartoons, comedies and other fictional works true: instead of two resurrections and judgements at definite times, their spirit "body" is instantly "resurrected" from the physical body and judged right then?
As far as what John saw in Heaven; he was taken "In Spirit" (vision) to "the Lord's Day", which was the future Kingdom irtself, so he saw what "would come to pass" (Rev. 1:1).
Also, are you sure the SDA's are dichotomist, or are you assuming that they lump the soul and spirit together just because they make them all dead. Armstrongism (from which wopik comes) I know definitely is trichotomist. The WCG's old "Good News" Magazine had an article 21 years ago called "What is Man?" that really broke it all down. I guess I assume that the SDA's are the same, as the arguments are the same, but then they do differe in many areas.