SOULS DIE

[JFox1]

Herbert Armstrong had a magazine called "The Plain Truth." Armstrongism. YUK!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by JFox1:
I dunno. That analogy "This is the egg, this is the sperm" was one bizarre way to explain how the Holy Spirit works. He also said that the Holy Spirit isn't a Person, but a "force like water coming from God."

You focus a lot on Armstrong - try quoting the Bible instead. As it turns out this is a good place to going into the text of scripture and show how your view survives the text of God's Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
Whats up with the Millerites?

Originally posted by Eric B:
Uh, that's a collective term for SDA's, their offshoots (Armstrongism, Abrahamic faith, etc.) and also the JW's, as Russel was at one point apart of Millerism. The doctrines of the state of the dead are the one thing that unite all those groups.

how about a little fact to go with that --

The Millerites were a group of about 50,000 people in the early 1800's from different faiths all agreed on just one point - the time of the second coming.

The early Seventh-day Adventists were composed of about 50 of that 50,000 who started the Adventist church. The bogus idea of charging all 50,000 as if they all became SDAs - never ceases to amaze me!

 

[BobRyan]

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

 

[BobRyan]

Derived from one of Kamoroso’s posts.

The argument is first made for man being like God and living forever --


Gen 2:16-17 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:4 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Should we choose to believe the lie of Satan himself?

In the end of time - God will allow strong delusion to come upon this world, it is those who have already chosen to believe a lie, and are to proud to give it up, that will be deceived by this strong delusion.

II Th 2:9-12 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 Tim 4:1 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The immortality of the soul is the doctrine first proposed by that serpent of old - (Rev 12 reference to him) .

His doom is predicted - as with all the wicked.

Ezek 28:13-19
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Spiritualism is one of the common threads of almost all false religions. The belief in the immortality of the soul is a strong tie binding mankind to error - and error to be exploited by the serpent just before Christ returns. Satan and his angels will be allowed by God to send strong delusion upon this world through this false teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked will “be no more”

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

]Ezek 18
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.


Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” reduced to ashes

Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

How great the contrast between Satan’s “beginning” and his “end” –

12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13
"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14
"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

The wicked are destroyed “Both Body AND soul” Matt 10:28 and “Destroy” means “Reduced to Ashes” (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Question for review –

#1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Continue to believe that wicked man will be reduced to ashes. We will believe the Words of our Lord and Savior who said they would be weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth in everlasting torment. I have never heard of ashes being in torment.

 

[BobRyan]

You post is totally devoid of any response to the parts of God's Word just posted and seen to be in contradiction to your views -- as usual.

You are simply posting what you "believe anyway". If your objective is to show what you believe "no matter what God's Word says" then posting that way after the detailed listing of texts refuting your view - was the perfect way to get that point across.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I have never heard of ashes being in torment.

In Rev 14:10 we see God telling us that the torment of any of your precious loved ones that miss out on heaven takes place IN the Presence of Christ and His holy ones - the saints of God. (Even Jonathan Edwards admits to this point).

So the quetion is just how long WERE you hoping to stand there having them screaming out in torment IN the Presence of Christ and those holy ones with Him??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

how about a little fact to go with that --

The Millerites were a group of about 50,000 people in the early 1800's from different faiths all agreed on just one point - the time of the second coming.

The early Seventh-day Adventists were composed of about 50 of that 50,000 who started the Adventist church. The bogus idea of charging all 50,000 as if they all became SDAs - never ceases to amaze me!

I never said they all became SDA's. I pointed out on the next post that the SDA was one group that came out of the movement. Russelism (JW), was another.

 

[BobRyan]

Miller never started a denomination. Most of those who followed him went back to their own churches. Their ownly reason for leaving the old church was in those cases where the church kicked them out for claiming to know the day and hour of Christ's return.

Miller's message was not a message to the church members to leave their respective churches. He was a licensed as a Baptist minister and had a great many invitation's to speak at varies churches because of the revivals that sprang up around his messages on the second coming of Christ.

He never went on to become an SDA or a JW or a Russelite - etc as you seem to suppose.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked will “be no more”

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

]Ezek 18
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.


Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” reduced to ashes

Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

 

[standingfirminChrist]

KJV Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

KJV Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

KJV Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {hell: or, the grave}

KJV Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Everlasting - 166 aivw,nioj aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
Meaning: 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

2851 ko,lasij kolasis {kol'-as-is}
Meaning: 1) correction, punishment, penalty
Origin: from 2849; TDNT - 3:816,451; n f
Usage: AV - punishment 1, torment 1; 2

I will continue to believe the Words of Jesus and that which was revealed to John on the Isle of Patmos.

There is no mention of people being consumed to ashes in John's account, and our Lord said their torment would be never ending, I believe the argument that people will just be disintegrated or annihilated is a lie straight from satan.

 

[saturneptune]

Ryan,
Instead of posting novels, read Rev. 20:10, and Rev 20:15. Really simple stuff. If your church believes in the destruction of the soul, I would urge you to find a faith that reflects the Bible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I also like the Geneva translation of Matthew 25:46

GNV Matthew 25:46 And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall.

Everlasting pain... wow!

 

[wopik]

"the soul that sins, it shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4, 20.


"The person who sins is the one who will die." - Ezekiel 18:4, 20

 

[Gershom]

I've been observing this discussion and a few others. I think I see a connection in at least three members on this board.

wopik
Claudia_T
UUall

PM me if you'd like to look into this.

 

[JFox1]

The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament by Robert K. Brown and Philip W. Comfort render Revelation 20:10:

AND THE DEVIL, THE ONE DECEIVING THEM, WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND SULFUR, WHERE BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET (ARE), AND THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT INTO THE AGES OF THE AGES.

Please note the future tense: AND THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT INTO THE AGES OF THE AGES.

There is no annihilation of the wicked but everlasting torture.

John Wesley, who learned New Testament Greek at the age of 10, rendered Revelation 20:10 in the Wesley Bible: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where both the wild beast and the false prophet (are): and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Eric B]

Miller never started a denomination. Most of those who followed him went back to their own churches. Their ownly reason for leaving the old church was in those cases where the church kicked them out for claiming to know the day and hour of Christ's return.

Miller's message was not a message to the church members to leave their respective churches. He was a licensed as a Baptist minister and had a great many invitation's to speak at varies churches because of the revivals that sprang up around his messages on the second coming of Christ.

He never went on to become an SDA or a JW or a Russelite - etc as you seem to suppose.

I never said Miller started a denomination. I never said Miller told people to leave their churches. I never said Miller became an SDA or JW/Russellite. Why are you always reading stuff people didn't say? All I said was that Miller started a movement that the SDA and JW's eventually came out of. (they left their churches of their own accors, not becaus Miller said so).
------------------------

I've been observing this discussion and a few others. I think I see a connection in at least three members on this board.

wopik
Claudia_T
UUall

Doubt all three could be one. Claudia is SDA (quotes from EGW, argues for weekly Sabbath only), and wopik is Armstrongite (quotes from Garner Ted; believes in annual feasts, etc.)

 

[wopik]

John Wesley, who learned New Testament Greek at the age of 10, rendered Revelation 20:10 in the Wesley Bible: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where both the wild beast and the false prophet (are): and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You can listen to John Wesley or the inspired Holy Bible, which says the wicked will be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume away into smoke - Psalms 37:20.


"The soul that sins, it shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4, 20. If this doesn't fit one's theology, perhaps the theology should change, instead of trying to redefine and change Scripture.


"With a winnowing shovel in His hand, He will clear His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn, but the chaff He will burn up with fire that never goes out." - Matt. 3:12


"fire that never goes out" - unquenchable fire


don't quench the fire, don't throw water on it.

When the "fuel" is burned up, the fire will go out.


Quench your thirst. Drink some water.