Southern Baptists & the Pre-Trib Rapture

[LadyEagle]

Hi, prophecy nut, I'm missing your point.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Book of Revelation, Chapters 20, 21 clearly show that this present heavens and earth will be replaced by a new heaven and earth and that God will dwell with His people on the new earth. That leaves no room for His earthly people, Israel.

Romans 11:[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

There you have it. ALL of Israel shall be saved. Perfectly explainable.

</font>[/QUOTE]First, I thought the Deliverer came out of Zion 2000 years ago!

Second, dispensational theology states that a) Israel is going to wind up on earth which Scripture tells us is going to pass away [2 Peter 3:10 and others] and b) the Church is going to be in heaven.

Yet Revelation 21 and 22 tell us that the Church is going to be on the new earth with the Triune God.

Therefore, you haven't explained it perfectly.

 

[prophecynut]

Lady Eagle

I guess my intentions were to point out the fulfillment of an OT prophecy. Is this what you're looking for?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I am not a dispy but the people in my neighborhood are often dipsos, if that counts.

Seriously, how do you deal with the first 7 verses of Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-7 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I believe that Revelation 20:1-7 is a very brief recapitulation of the events from the Ascension of Jesus Christ until He returns in Power and Glory [Revelation 19]. With the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ Satan was defeated and unable to completely deceive the nations [Hebrews 2:14]. Satans power is limited in the period between the First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ. [Actually Satan has always been subject to the Sovereignty of God.]

The First Resurrection and only resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are those who have been saved. Those who are said to be reigning with Jesus Christ are the souls of the deceased Saints, over these the second death has no power. The one thousand year period represents the time between the First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

It appears from verse 20:7 that for some short time prior to the Return of Jesus Christ Satan will be loosed for a little while. I must confess I don't completely understand this but it could represent a period of increased tribulation for the Church

Going a little further: When Jesus Christ returns there will be a General Resurrection and Judgment of all the dead [John 5:28, 29]. Those Souls that return with jesus Christ will rejoin their resurrected bodies. Those Saints who are still living will receive glorified bodies. After the Great White Throne Judgment Satan and all who belong to him will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[church mouse guy]

So you are saying that there are 3 resurrections and that the dead in Christ are or are not raised when Christ returns? That is what is so confusing about pre-trib is that it seems to run over logic.

I think that there are only 2 resurrections: the 1st at the Second Coming or return of Jesus and that is the resurrection of the good; the 2nd is the resurrection of the damned at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. I think that St. John says that the 1st resurrection takes place when Satan is locked up for 1000 years while Jesus reigns on earth.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Church mouse guy: Your post is
mentioned and replied to over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/2930/3.html#000018

 

[Daniel David]

The first resurrection refers to the redeemed. The second resurrection refers to the lost of all ages.

I Cor. 15 makes a distinction within the first resurrection like this

1. Christ
2. The first fruits (rapture)
3. Those who are his at his coming

It isn't confusing, one must simply think through the issue instead of just being a hack (CMG, I am not saying you are a hack).

 

[prophecynut]

Here's the problem why a third resurrection of the church saints is necessary.

The body of Christ of which he is the head is a single spiritual entity, indivisible and unchangeable.

God said the Church will not experience divine wrath and will be kept "from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world" (Rev.3:10).

When God's wrath comes in the day of the Lord there will be living parts of Christ body on earth. To avoid entering that day these living parts must be taken off the earth before that day begins. If the living parts are taken up to meet the Lord in the air then the parts asleep in Christ must be resurrected to join the living parts. God would not separate the living and dead in Christ, its unity must be kept intact.

The first resurrection is composed of only righteous dead at the Second Coming.

The second resurrection is composed of only wicked dead a thousand years later.

Neither the first or second resurrection has the translation of live saints.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Here's the problem why a third resurrection of the church saints is necessary.

The body of Christ of which he is the head is a single spiritual entity, indivisible and unchangeable.

God said the Church will not experience divine wrath and will be kept "from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world" (Rev.3:10).

When God's wrath comes in the day of the Lord there will be living parts of Christ body on earth. To avoid entering that day these living parts must be taken off the earth before that day begins. If the living parts are taken up to meet the Lord in the air then the parts asleep in Christ must be resurrected to join the living parts. God would not separate the living and dead in Christ, its unity must be kept intact.

The first resurrection is composed of only righteous dead at the Second Coming.

The second resurrection is composed of only wicked dead a thousand years later.

Neither the first or second resurrection has the translation of live saints.

Actually the first resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, has already occurred. The next and last resurrection will be the General Resurrection of all those in the graves [preceded by the translation of the living Saints]. [See John 5:28, 29]

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, what all of you seem to ignore is that St. Paul says this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This seems to say that the living Christians are raptured and the dead in Christ are raised at the same time, which John says takes place after Satan is locked up for 1000 years, as you know.

It seems that it is being suggested that I cannot take Paul and John literally and that there are many resurrections except that the resurrection of the damned is the 2nd resurrection.

This is what makes pre-trib logic so illogical in my mind.

cmg

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Well, what all of you seem to ignore is that St. Paul says this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This seems to say that the living Christians are raptured and the dead in Christ are raised at the same time, which John says takes place after Satan is locked up for 1000 years, as you know.

It seems that it is being suggested that I cannot take Paul and John literally and that there are many resurrections except that the resurrection of the damned is the 2nd resurrection.

This is what makes pre-trib logic so illogical in my mind.

cmg

All you need to do is take John 5:28, 29 literally which tells us that there will be a General Resurrection of all the dead. You can also take the passage you quoted from 1 Thessalonians literally which simply says that the living Saints will be translated prior to the General Resurrection. Also please note that Paul tells us this in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53:

50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

May I say that it is risky taking everything in the Book of Revelation literally. It leads to all sorts of incorrect ideas.

 

[church mouse guy]

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I don't see how this helps the pre-trib case. Because John says in

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And the verse that is quoted from I Corinthians 15:52 by Paul says that the dead (in Christ) will be raised at the last trump--for the trumpet shall sound.

And I Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ shall be raised first and then the living Christians raptured after a shout and the trump of God.

So it seems to me that John and Paul agree. And John says that the this is the first resurrection--the one that precedes the rapture by a split second--after Satan is locked up for 1000 years. John is very clear that this is the first resurrection. And the resurrection of the damned is not until the thousand years are finished, John says.

I don't know of anyone who says that both good and evil are raised at the same time.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I don't see how this helps the pre-trib case. Because John says in

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And the verse that is quoted from I Corinthians 15:52 by Paul says that the dead (in Christ) will be raised at the last trump--for the trumpet shall sound.

And I Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ shall be raised first and then the living Christians raptured after a shout and the trump of God.

So it seems to me that John and Paul agree. And John says that the this is the first resurrection--the one that precedes the rapture by a split second--after Satan is locked up for 1000 years. John is very clear that this is the first resurrection. And the resurrection of the damned is not until the thousand years are finished, John says.

I don't know of anyone who says that both good and evil are raised at the same time.

John and Paul do agree. You need to ask yourself: Who was the first person ever raised from the dead with a resurrection, a glorified, body?

As I have noted on the topic Have Southern Baptists Strayed on this forum, Southern Baptists historically believed that both good and evil are raised at the same time.

 

[church mouse guy]

Now you seem to be saying that there are 4 resurrections. You seem to be saying that the resurrection of Jesus is the 1st one; an unbiblical pre-trib resurrection is the 2nd one; the post-trib resurrection is the 3rd one; and the resurrection of the damned is the 4th.

That is what is wrong with pre-trib. It is confusing and reads much into The Holy Bible that cannot be pointed to verse by verse.

John says that the first resurrection happens just after Satan is locked up for 1000 years. That settles it for me.

Paul says that the 1st resurrection occurs just before the rapture of living Christians.

The 2nd resurrection--of the damned--happens at the end of the 1000 years.

Pre-trib doctrine is confusing and illogical. It came into the church from Darby and Pentecostalism, which has always been weak on doctrine. Pre-trib rests on emotionalism and convoluted explanations in my opinion. We have an idea what the anti-Christ will be like from the history of the many anti-Christs who have lived. I think that there is a good chance that the anti-Christ will be the Pope.