Sovereign Election

[steaver]

No, I am suggesting that I know and understand the interpretation better than you because my mind is not clouded by the error of Calvinism. Therefore I can understand and see the Scriptures more objectively.

Bingo! :thumbsup:

 

[The Archangel]

No, I am suggesting that I know and understand the interpretation better than you because my mind is not clouded by the error of Calvinism. Therefore I can understand and see the Scriptures more objectively.

Well, we know--beyond the shadow of a doubt--this is not the case. You can't (or won't) "Rightly Divide" John 3... Your presuppositions won't let you see the actual text--the Passive verb. You've demonstrated--perhaps more than anyone--that you are not at all objective because you deny the clear text of Scripture in favor of what you want it to say...

I didn't know you were trying to be the stand-up comedian of the Baptist Board.

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, we know--beyond the shadow of a doubt--this is not the case. You can't (or won't) "Rightly Divide" John 3... Your presuppositions won't let you see the actual text--the Passive verb. You've demonstrated--perhaps more than anyone--that you are not at all objective because you deny the clear text of Scripture in favor of what you want it to say...

I didn't know you were trying to be the stand-up comedian of the Baptist Board.

The Archangel

Bingo.....:tongue3: :laugh:

 

[savedbymercy]

Someone forgot to tell Cornelius, SBM. Did he sin because he sought God, yet being unregenerated?

What scriptures say that? Show me the scripture that says Cornelius was unregenerate!

 

[The Archangel]

Adam Clarke, in commenting on verse 3, suggests that those who do not seek after God and have gone aside are the Babylonians.
In verse 7 it says:

Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
--This suggests that Israel had been taken captive. It is a Messianic Psalm. Israel was not in captivity during David's time unless David is referring to the uprising of Absalom, but I doubt it. Being Messianic it seems to certainly refer to the coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom which is still future, as it refers to the "salvation of Israel." But David still may be referring to another captivity as well.
Either way, the first verse refers to the "fool," the one who declares "there is no god." In general those are the ones that are David's enemies--the Babylonians, Philistines, Syrians, etc. The nations that attacked David and did not believe in Jehovah--the enemies of the Jews.
--These ones were fools--like Goliath--cursed the name of Jehovah, defied him, and all of Israel who stood for his name.
The following verses describe the people of that or those nations, not necessarily all peoples of the world. Keep things in context.

Here's why you're wrong:

Psalm 14:2 says:

The Lord http://www.esvbible.org/Ps102.19;Ps11.4/looks down from heaven on the children of man,
​

The phrase "children of man" means everyone. It is the entirety of humanity that God looks upon in this Psalm, not any group.

And, in this entirety of humanity, there is none who seek God, who do good, etc. This is the what the Psalm says, it is what it references.

Your argument is not with me at this point--it's with the text of Scripture. You can accept Scripture or you can try to argue about what the meaning of "is" is.

There are many that seek after God. Cornelius is one such example.

For example, Cornelius sought after God, and yet was not saved. Who is the one doing the dodging?

Again, you err because you don't know the Scriptures....

Who was Cornelius? A Gentile? Of course. However, that's not all... Acts 10:2 describes him thusly:

a devout man http://www.esvbible.org/Ac10.22;Ac13.16;Ac13.26/who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
​

He is specifically described as one who "feared God." This means that he was ALREADY a Gentile convert to Judaism. He attended the synagogue, but was something like an associate member because "God fearers" were not full converts. They worshiped Yahweh, but were not circumcised.

So, in Cornelius' prayers, etc., he is ALREADY praying to the One, True, and Living God. But, because he doesn't believe in Christ (probably not knowing about Christ as Messiah, etc.) and because he is a devout and faithful worshiper of God, God takes it upon Himself to bring Peter to him to share Christ.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Toward the end of his life, the most wicked king that Israel ever had, Ahab, sought after the Lord.

You'll have to explain why you think this is so....

Why do you deny that people seek after God.
Why do you deny that God commands men not only to seek after him but to repent (something your theology says is impossible).
Why would you teach that God commands men to do that which is impossible for them to do, and having instructed them to do such, damns them to an eternal Hell any way simply because that is where they were chosen to go.

I don't deny that people seek after gods. They just don't seek after the One, True, and Living God. And, because Scripture so clearly says that no one seeks after God, I believe it, and you should, too.

I don't deny that God commands people to seek Him or to repent. But, the Scripture, again, is totally clear--no one seeks God. Those who do seek God do so because of some work He has done in them (which is, by the way, what John 3 is talking about--being born from above).

I teach that God makes the unwilling willing. And, then, the regenerated seek after Him with their whole heart and, in seeking Him, they find Him.

But, make no mistake, it is because of God's work in seeking worshipers for Himself (John 4) that we born again from above, become willing, and respond to Him in repentance and faith.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Because we observe the error you post does not make it a personal attack. ...it is just an observation. In case you have not noticed. ....everyone can indeed see how you ignore text after text. Like the posts on 2 pet 3.......and you attempt to reconstruct Ephesians after your imagination .
This has not fooled anyone.It instead cries out against you
Almost everytime you post now it misses the mark.....you know how you can tell.? Because you attack each person who offers correction saying they do not believe the Great Commision. ...or do not evangelize.

it is at a point that you now openly contradict the exact teaching on the scripture. To continue like that is to be one who spreads error like a plague rather than ministers the words of life.

 

[robustheologian]

Amazing folks, such a studied effort to avoid the three verses. Protestant claims my view is that some are righteous. Totally false, just another effort to avoid the three verses.

RT claims something is wrong with my character. You have got to love them.

Icon gives a thumbs up to the misrepresentation. LOL

And Williams again avoids the Calvinist addition of "at any time" to Romans 3:10-11.

Do unregenerate men seek God? According to Calvinism, no. But Matthew 23:13 tells us men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively. So the Calvinist claim is unbiblical.

Do unregenerate men seek God all the time or when they are sinning? Nope. So since men mostly do not seek God, no one is righteous. But Matthew 23:13 teaches some men at some times do seek God.

Can unregenerate men understand spiritual meat? Nope. Can men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We are at 19 pages of avoidance, misrepresentation, and ad homenims. You have got to love them.

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

All three of these HAVE been addressed. What's ironically true is that you keep posting 1 Corinthians 2:14 and this seems to be the reason you're not getting any of this.

 

[DHK]

Here's why you're wrong:

Psalm 14:2 says:

The Lord http://www.esvbible.org/Ps102.19;Ps11.4/looks down from heaven on the children of man,
​

The phrase "children of man" means everyone. It is the entirety of humanity that God looks upon in this Psalm, not any group.

And, in this entirety of humanity, there is none who seek God, who do good, etc. This is the what the Psalm says, it is what it references.

Your argument is not with me at this point--it's with the text of Scripture. You can accept Scripture or you can try to argue about what the meaning of "is" is.



Again, you err because you don't know the Scriptures....

There is a limit to basing doctrine out of prayers. Perhaps I will address that later.

Who was Cornelius? A Gentile? Of course. However, that's not all... Acts 10:2 describes him thusly:

a devout man http://www.esvbible.org/Ac10.22;Ac13.16;Ac13.26/who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
​

He is specifically described as one who "feared God." This means that he was ALREADY a Gentile convert to Judaism. He attended the synagogue, but was something like an associate member because "God fearers" were not full converts. They worshiped Yahweh, but were not circumcised.

He was devout--religious, like the suicide bombers of Islam--religious, and that is all. That is what the word means.
Uncircumcised. Generally used with "the unsaved, wicked, etc." It was a word that David used to describe Goliath in his contempt for him. Cornelius was not circumcised.

So, in Cornelius' prayers, etc., he is ALREADY praying to the One, True, and Living God.

Like the 100,000 present had been doing all their lives at Pentecost, but only 3,000 were regenerated and saved.
Or, like the RCC. They too think they pray to the true and living God, the triune Godhead. They still aren't regenerate or saved. Your point means nothing.
This is after Pentecost. Judaism had become now a false religion, a religion of good works. They had rejected the Messiah, and were now relying on their works to save them. Their works could no more get them to heaven than Islam could. Cornelius was not regenerated through Judaism as he wouldn't have been through any other false religion as Islam. Why would you think a false religion would be the means of regenerating Cornelius?

But, because he doesn't believe in Christ (probably not knowing about Christ as Messiah, etc.) and because he is a devout and faithful worshiper of God, God takes it upon Himself to bring Peter to him to share Christ.

Rather, because he is seeking the truth about God, the truth about Christ, the truth about salvation, God reveals it unto him in his grace. God has revealed as much as is going to be revealed to him through his word via what he can hear from the distance he is allowed to stand from the synagogue. He stands from afar but cannot go in because he is not a full proselyte like the Ethiopian eunuch was.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

I have studied this passage in great detail. I do know what I am talking about. Anyone who says that a person who has never heard about Christ, never heard the gospel message, etc. can be regenerated, doesn't know peanuts about salvation and is treading on heresy.

You'll have to explain why you think this is so....

Ahab was a wicked king, the wickedest that Israel ever had. When Ahab heard the judgment pronounced against him--that when he died the dogs would come into the city and eat of him, and so would the fowls of the air, then he repented.
The scriptures say:
1 Kings 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
1 Kings 21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.
--God answered the prayers of this wicked king who all his life had been an idolater.

I don't deny that people seek after gods. They just don't seek after the One, True, and Living God. And, because Scripture so clearly says that no one seeks after God, I believe it, and you should, too.

Did Ahab's idols answer him, or was it Jehovah?
By your theology it would have been impossible for Jehovah to answer him, and yet he did.

I don't deny that God commands people to seek Him or to repent. But, the Scripture, again, is totally clear--no one seeks God. Those who do seek God do so because of some work He has done in them (which is, by the way, what John 3 is talking about--being born from above).

The scripture, only as you interpret it, is clear to you, that absolutely no one seeks God.
Obviously Cornelius sought God.
Ahab sought the Lord and repented, and God heard him as well.
Such examples are all throughout the Bible and throughout life. But your mind is made up. You will not believe. You have a Calvinistic mindset from which all your beliefs must flow even if they are wrong.
The statement is not an absolute. It is a general statement about mankind.

 

[Yeshua1]

True Calvinism cannot escape reprobation.

That would indeed be the viewpoint held by those within the Supra camp, and among hyper calvinists, but no tthe views of the infra camp, that seemed to be the views being reflected in the Confessions of the faith in most cases...

 

[Yeshua1]

Here's why you're wrong:

Psalm 14:2 says:

The Lord http://www.esvbible.org/Ps102.19;Ps11.4/looks down from heaven on the children of man,
​

The phrase "children of man" means everyone. It is the entirety of humanity that God looks upon in this Psalm, not any group.

And, in this entirety of humanity, there is none who seek God, who do good, etc. This is the what the Psalm says, it is what it references.

Your argument is not with me at this point--it's with the text of Scripture. You can accept Scripture or you can try to argue about what the meaning of "is" is.



Again, you err because you don't know the Scriptures....

Who was Cornelius? A Gentile? Of course. However, that's not all... Acts 10:2 describes him thusly:

a devout man http://www.esvbible.org/Ac10.22;Ac13.16;Ac13.26/who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
​

He is specifically described as one who "feared God." This means that he was ALREADY a Gentile convert to Judaism. He attended the synagogue, but was something like an associate member because "God fearers" were not full converts. They worshiped Yahweh, but were not circumcised.

So, in Cornelius' prayers, etc., he is ALREADY praying to the One, True, and Living God. But, because he doesn't believe in Christ (probably not knowing about Christ as Messiah, etc.) and because he is a devout and faithful worshiper of God, God takes it upon Himself to bring Peter to him to share Christ.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.



You'll have to explain why you think this is so....



I don't deny that people seek after gods. They just don't seek after the One, True, and Living God. And, because Scripture so clearly says that no one seeks after God, I believe it, and you should, too.

I don't deny that God commands people to seek Him or to repent. But, the Scripture, again, is totally clear--no one seeks God. Those who do seek God do so because of some work He has done in them (which is, by the way, what John 3 is talking about--being born from above).

I teach that God makes the unwilling willing. And, then, the regenerated seek after Him with their whole heart and, in seeking Him, they find Him.

But, make no mistake, it is because of God's work in seeking worshipers for Himself (John 4) that we born again from above, become willing, and respond to Him in repentance and faith.

The Archangel

Are there MANY sinners who have faith plac ed in a fasle god or idol, trusting in that to save them?

Trusting in their own goodness and good works to do such?

Indeed yes, but there have been and are right now NONE, apart from God produsing the change in them by his own divine Will, who has received Jesus and come the way of God in order to get saved!

 

[DHK]

What scriptures say that? Show me the scripture that says Cornelius was unregenerate!

Show me the one that says he is.
Did he tell his servants to send for Peter because "I am regenerated, but just don't know how to make the next step to salvation."???????????

 

[The Archangel]

There is a limit to basing doctrine out of prayers. Perhaps I will address that later.

Dodge....

The fact remains that you are attempting to base a theology--one that is against Paul, in fact--on this very passage. Hypocrisy.

He was devout--religious, like the suicide bombers of Islam--religious, and that is all. That is what the word means.
Uncircumcised. Generally used with "the unsaved, wicked, etc." It was a word that David used to describe Goliath in his contempt for him. Cornelius was not circumcised.

Like the 100,000 present had been doing all their lives at Pentecost, but only 3,000 were regenerated and saved.
Or, like the RCC. They too think they pray to the true and living God, the triune Godhead. They still aren't regenerate or saved. Your point means nothing.

This is after Pentecost. Judaism had become now a false religion, a religion of good works. They had rejected the Messiah, and were now relying on their works to save them. Their works could no more get them to heaven than Islam could. Cornelius was not regenerated through Judaism as he wouldn't have been through any other false religion as Islam. Why would you think a false religion would be the means of regenerating Cornelius?

Rather, because he is seeking the truth about God, the truth about Christ, the truth about salvation, God reveals it unto him in his grace. God has revealed as much as is going to be revealed to him through his word via what he can hear from the distance he is allowed to stand from the synagogue. He stands from afar but cannot go in because he is not a full proselyte like the Ethiopian eunuch was.

I have studied this passage in great detail. I do know what I am talking about. Anyone who says that a person who has never heard about Christ, never heard the gospel message, etc. can be regenerated, doesn't know peanuts about salvation and is treading on heresy.

So....like the trapped wolf, you're gnawing your paws off...

The text refers to Cornelius as someone who "feared God," not as uncircumcised. The phrase "God fearer" means something--it means that Cornelius worshiped the God of Israel.

Your entire premise is shown to be false by this one thing. Had you any understanding of the passage you would have seen what it was saying.

Ahab was a wicked king, the wickedest that Israel ever had. When Ahab heard the judgment pronounced against him--that when he died the dogs would come into the city and eat of him, and so would the fowls of the air, then he repented.

The scriptures say:
1 Kings 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.

1 Kings 21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.
--God answered the prayers of this wicked king who all his life had been an idolater.

Did Ahab's idols answer him, or was it Jehovah?
By your theology it would have been impossible for Jehovah to answer him, and yet he did.

Did Ahab seek God or did God, though His prophet, go to Ahab?

The scripture, only as you interpret it, is clear to you, that absolutely no one seeks God.

The text is the text and it says what it says and it means what it says--no one seeks God.

Obviously Cornelius sought God.

The God he already worshiped.

Ahab sought the Lord and repented, and God heard him as well.

WRONG! It is God that sent Elijah to Ahab. Elijah was there to condemn Ahab, Elijah was not there at Ahab's request because he suddenly decided to be a better person and trust Yahweh

Context, which seems only to be an accusatory term for you, matters.

Such examples are all throughout the Bible and throughout life. But your mind is made up. You will not believe. You have a Calvinistic mindset from which all your beliefs must flow even if they are wrong.
The statement is not an absolute. It is a general statement about mankind.

God coming to man--seeking worshipers--is throughout all the Bible... Nearly every example you cite you cite out of context and then deny and obfuscate when you are easily shown to be wrong....

Perhaps it's you that can't leave your Arminianism and man-centered theology to see the riches of what Scripture says about God's grace.

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

Show me the one that says he is.
Did he tell his servants to send for Peter because "I am regenerated, but just don't know how to make the next step to salvation."???????????

Since you don't have one, you made a invalid comment not supported by scripture!

 

[Iconoclast]

Dodge....

The fact remains that you are attempting to base a theology--one that is against Paul, in fact--on this very passage. Hypocrisy.
So....like the trapped wolf, you're gnawing your paws off...
The text refers to Cornelius as someone who "feared God," not as uncircumcised. The phrase "God fearer" means something--it means that Cornelius worshiped the God of Israel.
Your entire premise is shown to be false by this one thing. Had you any understanding of the passage you would have seen what it was saying.
Did Ahab seek God or did God, though His prophet, go to Ahab?
The text is the text and it says what it says and it means what it says--no one seeks God.The God he already worshiped.
WRONG! It is God that sent Elijah to Ahab. Elijah was there to condemn Ahab, Elijah was not there at Ahab's request because he suddenly decided to be a better person and trust Yahweh

Context, which seems only to be an accusatory term for you, matters.
God coming to man--seeking worshipers--is throughout all the Bible... Nearly every example you cite you cite out of context and then deny and obfuscate when you are easily shown to be wrong....

Perhaps it's you that can't leave your Arminianism and man-centered theology to see the riches of what Scripture says about God's grace.

The Archangel

Solid post and correction offered once again.....it is building up like a great mountain:laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

The fact remains that you are attempting to base a theology--one that is against Paul, in fact--on this very passage. Hypocrisy.

Look well to yourself here. A man-based theology is one centered around "Calvin." The Bible is my only authority, not a "man."

The text refers to Cornelius as someone who "feared God," not as uncircumcised. The phrase "God fearer" means something--it means that Cornelius worshiped the God of Israel.

The facts speak otherwise.
1. He feared "whatever revelation he knew of the God he worshiped, which is the same thing as a Catholic today. It does not mean that he is regenerated.
As I said, all those Jews before Pentecost were not regenerated. They all worshiped "the same God." Many of them were part and parcel of the mob that crucified Christ.
--Sincerely worshiped, and sincerely wrong.
--sincerely feared and sincerely wrong.
He was part of a false religion.
Judaism did not have the truth. And neither did Cornelius until Peter came. He remained in spiritual darkness. That was precisely the reason Peter had to come. To say otherwise would be bordering on heresy.
A devout Jew is nowhere close to Christianity. They crucified the Lord of Glory, and you say he is regenerated!!
If he is a devout Muslim is he also regenerated? What about a worshiper of the goddess, Artemis?

Did Ahab seek God or did God, though His prophet, go to Ahab?

You don't know that answer?
Ahab heard judgment--terrible judgment.
He repented. It was his choice. That does happen. It is Calvinism that says it is impossible, not the Word, not God.

The text is the text and it says what it says and it means what it says--no one seeks God.

No, you say that. You take a general statement and make it absolute.
Let's use another example.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
--Nothing more sure than death and taxes, aren't there?
But concerning death?
What about Elijah? Did he die? What about Enoch? Did he die?
I believe in the rapture. Will all those who are raptured die?
So, though the statement is "generally true," it is not an absolute statement, in that it does have exceptions. Most do.
So it is in Romans 3. They are statements generally true about mankind. Paul was quoting David, who was praying. His enemies were persecuting him. The thoughts of his prayer are toward his enemies. The last verse is also a Messianic promise.
But look at the statements that Paul continues with in Romans 3:

Romans 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--As I asked already: Before you came to Christ, Were your feet swift to shed blood?
How many did you kill, murder? Did you enjoy it?

This is a quote from the judgment of Isaiah on Israel:

Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
--It is a general indictment of the times.
But you would have us believe, with your logic, that ALL the Israelites were murdering each other! Sorry, that is just not true. It doesn't fit. It was an indictment on the nation, and I don't see the mothers and children or even all the men killing each other.
--This describes the a general demeanor of the times that they lived in; not to be taken as literally as every person was killing.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.