Sovereign in Salvation

A report you want? How about a TRIAL?

These trials where done by ALL leaders of the church and doctrine was put to the test "by scripture only". The outcome was the judgments of the CHURCH as official documents on the true or false teaching which caused the council.

Council of Carthage 412 A.D. !!
Council of Hippo 418 A.D. !!
Council of Orange 529 A.D. !!

Both emphatically stating the TOTAL depravity of man and the bondage of his will to sin.

Waldensian Creed 1120
Belgic Confession 1561
Heidelburg Catechism 1563
The Formula of Concord 1577
Synod of Dort 1618
Westminster Confession 1647

Through out history the church has ALWAYS embraced Paul's and Johns teachings on God's Predestination and God's sovereign free will and the total depravity of man.

If we ignore the creeds, councils and confessions, we have to fall into the trap of reexamining what the Bible says.

If we held to what our fathers taught we would not have fallen to old heresies like Ariunism, which was condemned in 325 at Nicea. Unfortunately, we have Jehovah's Witnesses that don't bother with church history and fall into that heresy (Jesus is not God). I don't hear anybody complaining about that on this forum...

You can not deny the weight of these men whose teachings have be studied for THOUSANDS of years and were so close to the original writings AND apostles.

It's the height of arrogance to ignore the great teachers, creeds and councils of our past. Truly, if we don't history, we are bound to repeat it.

 

ILL,
YOUR the one standing on the side of the Roman Catholics not I or OSAS or John P. We stand on the Word of God and humbly learn from the great teachers He has given us, and do not forget history.

If you would crack open a book, you would find "free willys" on Deridasius' humanistic, Roman Catholic side. You would be the first one to put your stamp of approval on Luther's papal bul while I'd be burning it with Luther.

 

Your idea of Total Depravity infers that Jesus Christ has the same problem. But, the Bible says we are created after the likeness of God. [Genesis 1:26 & 27 ---James 3:9]

Either human beings were created in the image of God, as theologians tell us, or (and I say it will ALL RESPECT to my Savior) He is Totally Depraved because He created men and women after His likeness.

Pick one!

Berrian, Th.D.

 

But rc, where is the list of Sola Scriptura churches? How do we know who was included in those you mention, nor do we know the specifics of the text, nor do we have any such evidence that what you post is true, except from your very own slant! If you slant this like you do scripture, there can be no validity to it!

 

Come on Th.D.

You know better than that...
What did the Council of Orange say?

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature
Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.



Article 2: The Spread of Corruption
Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants -- except for Christ alone -- not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.



Article 3: Total Inability
Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.



Article 4: The Inadequacy of the Light of Nature
There is, to be sure, a certain light of nature remaining in man after the fall, by virtue of which he retains some notions about God, natural things, and the difference between what is moral and immoral, and demonstrates a certain eagerness for virtue and for good outward behavior. But this light of nature is far from enabling man to come to a saving knowledge of God and conversion to him -- so far, in fact, that man does not use it rightly even in matters of nature and society. Instead, in various ways he completely distorts this light, whatever its precise character, and suppresses it in unrighteousness. In doing so he renders himself without excuse before God.



Article 5: The Inadequacy of the Law
In this respect, what is true of the light of nature is true also of the Ten Commandments given by God through Moses specifically to the Jews. For man cannot obtain saving grace through the Decalogue, because, although it does expose the magnitude of his sin and increasingly convict him of his guilt, yet it does not offer a remedy or enable him to escape from his misery, and, indeed, weakened as it is by the flesh, leaves the offender under the curse.



Article 6: The Saving Power of the Gospel
What, therefore, neither the light of nature nor the law can do, God accomplishes by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the Word or the ministry of reconciliation. This is the gospel about the Messiah, through which it has pleased God to save believers, in both the Old and the New Testament.



Article 7: God's Freedom in Revealing the Gospel
In the Old Testament, God revealed this secret of his will to a small number; in the New Testament (now without any distinction between peoples) he discloses it to a large number. The reason for this difference must not be ascribed to the greater worth of one nation over another, or to a better use of the light of nature, but to the free good pleasure and undeserved love of God. Therefore, those who receive so much grace, beyond and in spite of all they deserve, ought to acknowledge it with humble and thankful hearts; on the other hand, with the apostle they ought to adore (but certainly not inquisitively search into) the severity and justice of God's judgments on the others, who do not receive this grace.



Article 8: The Serious Call of the Gospel
Nevertheless, all who are called through the gospel are called seriously. For seriously and most genuinely God makes known in his Word what is pleasing to him: that those who are called should come to him. Seriously he also promises rest for their souls and eternal life to all who come to him and believe.



Article 9: Human Responsibility for Rejecting the Gospel
The fact that many who are called through the ministry of the gospel do not come and are not brought to conversion must not be blamed on the gospel, nor on Christ, who is offered through the gospel, nor on God, who calls them through the gospel and even bestows various gifts on them, but on the people themselves who are called. Some in self-assurance do not even entertain the Word of life; others do entertain it but do not take it to heart, and for that reason, after the fleeting joy of a temporary faith, they relapse; others choke the seed of the Word with the thorns of life's cares and with the pleasures of the world and bring forth no fruits. This our Savior teaches in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13).



Article 10: Conversion as the Work of God
The fact that others who are called through the ministry of the gospel do come and are brought to conversion must not be credited to man, as though one distinguishes himself by free choice from others who are furnished with equal or sufficient grace for faith and conversion (as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains). No, it must be credited to God: just as from eternity he chose his own in Christ, so within time he effectively calls them, grants them faith and repentance, and, having rescued them from the dominion of darkness, brings them into the kingdom of his Son, in order that they may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called them out of darkness into this marvelous light, and may boast not in themselves, but in the Lord, as apostolic words frequently testify in Scripture.



Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion
Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.



Article 12: Regeneration a Supernatural Work
And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and to repent.



Article 13: The Incomprehensible Way of Regeneration
In this life believers cannot fully understand the way this work occurs; meanwhile, they rest content with knowing and experiencing that by this grace of God they do believe with the heart and love their Savior.



Article 14: The Way God Gives Faith
In this way, therefore, faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent -- the act of believing -- from man's choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.



Article 15: Responses to God's Grace
God does not owe this grace to anyone. For what could God owe to one who has nothing to give that can be paid back? Indeed, what could God owe to one who has nothing of his own to give but sin and falsehood? Therefore the person who receives this grace owes and gives eternal thanks to God alone; the person who does not receive it either does not care at all about these spiritual things and is satisfied with himself in his condition, or else in self-assurance foolishly boasts about having something which he lacks. Furthermore, following the example of the apostles, we are to think and to speak in the most favorable way about those who outwardly profess their faith and better their lives, for the inner chambers of the heart are unknown to us. But for others who have not yet been called, we are to pray to the God who calls things that do not exist as though they did. In no way, however, are we to pride ourselves as better than they, as though we had distinguished ourselves from them.



Article 16: Regeneration's Effect
However, just as by the fall man did not cease to be man, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and -- in a manner at once pleasing and powerful -- bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright.



Article 17: God's Use of Means in Regeneration
Just as the almighty work of God by which he brings forth and sustains our natural life does not rule out but requires the use of means, by which God, according to his infinite wisdom and goodness, has wished to exercise his power, so also the aforementioned supernatural work of God by which he regenerates us in no way rules out or cancels the use of the gospel, which God in his great wisdom has appointed to be the seed of regeneration and the food of the soul. For this reason, the apostles and the teachers who followed them taught the people in a godly manner about this grace of God, to give him the glory and to humble all pride, and yet did not neglect meanwhile to keep the people, by means of the holy admonitions of the gospel, under the administration of the Word, the sacraments, and discipline. So even today it is out of the question that the teachers or those taught in the church should presume to test God by separating what he in his good pleasure has wished to be closely joined together. For grace is bestowed through admonitions, and the more readily we perform our duty, the more lustrous the benefit of God working in us usually is and the better his work advances. To him alone, both for the means and for their saving fruit and effectiveness, all glory is owed forever. Amen.

 

Hi Old regular;
Would you care to prove this as it is written with scripture;

I just couldn't help noticing that you offered no scripture.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Fallen man cannot do or work any good in God's sight (Matt 7.17-18;John 15.4-5;Romans 8.7-8).

Fallen man cannot comprehend or apprehend the truth of that which is good (Acts 16.14; Eph 4.18; 2 Cor 3.12-18; John 1.11;John 8.43; Matt 13.14; 1 Cor 2.14).

Man does not have ANY DESIRE towards doing good (Gen 6.5; Matt 7.18; John 3.3; 8.43;15.5;6.64-65; Ezek 11.19; Eph 2.1,5)

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD, NO NOT ONE.

 

We believe this too.

We know that only the Lord can transform the human heart/life.

Men and women girls and boys also have a mind, conscience, and will to either hear or reject Christ.

Total Depravity is totally wrong because we still even as sinners are made in the image of God. Our human nature has been tarnished by Original Sin, but God still makes sinners responsible for neglecting or rejecting Jesus. If sinners were so messed up that they could not understand the Cross, death, resurrection of Jesus and that He desires to save them, then we would be totally depraved.

The Spirit calls sinners, men and women either accept Jesus or turn Him down. No person has ever been saved without personally yielding his or her will into the Divine plan of salvation, freely offered to sinners.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is His 'gift' offered, it is not His mandate hammered into the lives of the alleged, hand selected elect.

Some still do not get it that the Lord is not prejudicial. [Deuteronomy 10:17; Isaiah 65:2; Romans 2:11] Either He regards persons or He does not. What saith the Scripture?

And we have not even mentioned the attribute of God's love and Divine justice. No one can eject these realities coming from God's very nature. Read some theology once in awhile.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

I do not agree with this article. He simply separated Himself from sinful man.

The Before and After affect of man's First act of disobedience, is simply this: Before, God was with man, after, God separated himself from man. Nothing at all happened to man except the "absence of Holiness".

God removed NOTHING from man that He input into his created man.

As for the rest of the article. Adam and Eve, being the first of kind, had no human history or human experience upon which to base judgments, temperament, purity, etc., etc. They had to learn it the hard way, by living it! All mankind who are separated from God must for the most part learn it the hard way too!

So Scratch Article 1 of the council of Orange, it simply does not measure up to be true!

 

Interesting, "unfit for any saving good". I'm certainly glad God did not say that! He instead said that we, mankind are so much worth saving that he gave us His only begotten so to make it so!

This Council of Orange must have been comprised of stupid people that don't know how to think things through!

 

Contrary to what the Gospel message is..."For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." This article says that it is the Holy Spirit that reconciles through both the Old and the New Testament. The New Testament says that Faith is what reconciles man to God, and that Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and that By God's grace through our faith we are saved. and that it is not by anything we do, but Salvation is the Gift of God, Not earned by our works, lest any man should boast!

These Orange-ites are nothing more than bureaucrats establishing religion by committee.

 

Interesting, "unfit for any saving good". I'm certainly glad God did not say that! He instead said that we, mankind are so much worth saving that he gave us His only begotten so to make it so!

This Council of Orange must have been comprised of stupid people that don't know how to think things through! </font>[/QUOTE]God did say that in 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Even though Festus told Paul in acts 26:24 Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. I would have to disagree with him. </font>[/QUOTE]NO Sir, God did not say that, An apostle of God did! Yes, I do agree that the natural man does not seek after divine spirituality, however the natural man does indeed seek after things of the "spirit realm", hense voodoo, black magic, wicca, witchcraft, etc. So the Orange council, and in light of the factual evidence all around us, this passage in Corinthians is not accurate, man does seek after things of spirit!

 

rc;
Your ignorance of scripture goes before you.

Not a single one says man is unable not one. You loose
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So a leopard can change his spots or is he UNABLE to?

The passages point is the UNABILITY of man to do good !

Wes... so I guess the church and the ALL the great teachers in it where wrong for 1600 years, till Arminius came huh? ...

Not even the gates of hell shall prevail against it... except the evil teachers that start at my deciples students till Arminius will reinstate it... hmmm don't remember that part being in there...

I guess you go right along with the Mormons, and JW's that the teachings of the church in history where the "great apostacy"...

Funny how ALL heresies and cults reject the Church fathers and their councils...

I'm glad we have SMART people like you Wes, who spend 8 - 10 hours a day reading the Greek, Hebrew, Latin like the fathers did and set those "stupid" straight.

Psalm 88:12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of FORGETFULNESS?

 

The problem is rc, that you, like the church fathers, keep yourselves cloistered behing closed doors. You do not live 'in the world'! There are many of us who do live 'in the world', though we are not 'of the world' who see what is going in in the world. We know from up front and personal experience that the writings of the council are at best inadequate to address the situation for the "common man" who actually struggles against principalities and powers. The church fathers are not "in tune with" their constituents, they don't have time to be!