• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Sovereign Omniscience

NetChaplain

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe God’s commands are only to those whom He knows are going to desire to obey them. What sense or reason would there be to think He would command those whom He knows would not obey them, which I believe if conceived otherwise, would be to misunderstand His omniscience. I see it that his commands, warnings and admonitions in Scripture stand as identifiable direction to the believer, and as a witness against the unbeliever (Deu 30:19), from who He shouldn’t even expect obedience.

Just as God uses the letters to the churches in the Book of Revelation to reveal His will and direction (which I believe all the churches will follow, being under the Spirit’s control and the Body and Bride), He makes clearly known via these commands, warnings and admonitions unto His children concerning what His Spirit will be guiding them unto—without fail. Similar to Him hyperbolically stating “ye will be doing this, or that, and such and such!

The Book of Life, established from all eternity is the mind of God’s foreknowledge of all who will choose the “straight gate” and “narrow way.” In our knowing that God already knows everything secures comfort to those who are and will be His. Thus we can be at peace to know that He needs not to leave anything to chance, nor, as one has said “never has to call an emergency meeting with the Holy Trinity.”

I think an acceptable explanation of God’s omniscience could be that which concerns what He knows and when He knew it: the former is all that ever occurs here and in heaven; the latter is from eternity past, which is “from everlasting”—to eternity future, which is “to everlasting” (Psa 41:13; 90:2; 103:17; 106:48). What answer could there be to the reason why God would create man, foreknowing that the majority of mankind will perish (Mat 7:13, 14)? I’d like to think that it’s because He also foreknew all who wouldn’t perish.

Though Revelation reveals an innumerable amount of saved souls “which no man number” (but God can - Rev 7:9), they are “few” in comparison to those perishing. Our omniscient God has always had the saved on His mind, and so, created in knowing the worth of those whom He knows are and will be His, which is demonstrated in the parable of the lost sheep and reveals to me that even a single soul is equal worth to God as an innumerable amount of souls would be. This I think is exemplified in the phrase, “doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?” Each believer is as important as all believers combined, meaning no believer is more or less important to God—thus equally cherished!
 
Last edited:

Particular

Well-Known Member
I believe God’s commands are only to those whom He knows are going to desire to obey them.

Is the Creator not Sovereign over all?

Is He only Sovereign over those who choose to follow Him?
If so, that makes God a secondary sovereign with humanity as the primary sovereign that determines to whom they will bow.

I disagree with your assertion.

The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. The people do not choose their leader. God does not "run for office" and get voted in.

Humans, by virtue of being born in the pit of sin, serve Satan as their master. God must choose to redeem humans if they are to become citizens in the Kingdom of God and children of the King.
Human's doing the choosing is not an option. Teaching that humans will desire God is not accurate. Humans cannot desire God until God chooses to redeem them.

John 8:41-44 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 

NetChaplain

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is the Creator not Sovereign over all?

Is He only Sovereign over those who choose to follow Him?
Hi and thanks for your reply! Not certain I understand all that you're trying to say but I think I at least partly know what you mean.
First I think what we define as sovereign should be made clear. To me, it generally means that He predetermines the finality of everyone's life by foreknowing everything we will ever think, say, do and feel, and through this He knows what He will be doing with everyone, e.g. eternal life to those whom He knows will choose Him, etc. By "predetermine" I mean that though God's desire is that all could be saved, He knows that those who remain in unbelief must enter into "damnation" (Jhn 5:28, 29). Predetermining is one of many attributes that demonstrates God's omniscience, simply meaning He knew who are resurrection to eternal life or not, prior to creating.

Some have expressed the notion that God can choose not to foreknow the fate of anyone, but myself, I wouldn't know where to find any sense with such a conception, since it would confuse the understanding of His omniscience. With that being said I can see why some might not find security understanding this attribute of God, if they were not secure in their knowledge of His love and will (not suspecting this of any individual, just making a general statement).
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is the Creator not Sovereign over all?

Is He only Sovereign over those who choose to follow Him?
If so, that makes God a secondary sovereign with humanity as the primary sovereign that determines to whom they will bow.

I disagree with your assertion.

The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. The people do not choose their leader. God does not "run for office" and get voted in.

Humans, by virtue of being born in the pit of sin, serve Satan as their master. God must choose to redeem humans if they are to become citizens in the Kingdom of God and children of the King.
Human's doing the choosing is not an option. Teaching that humans will desire God is not accurate. Humans cannot desire God until God chooses to redeem them.

John 8:41-44 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Is not the Moral law of God universal, to be applied by all persons, regardless saved or not?
 

Particular

Well-Known Member
Hi and thanks for your reply! Not certain I understand all that you're trying to say but I think I at least partly know what you mean.
First I think what we define as sovereign should be made clear. To me, it generally means that He predetermines the finality of everyone's life by foreknowing everything we will ever think, say, do and feel, and through this He knows what He will be doing with everyone, e.g. eternal life to those whom He knows will choose Him, etc. By "predetermine" I mean that though God's desire is that all could be saved, He knows that those who remain in unbelief must enter into "damnation" (Jhn 5:28, 29). Predetermining is one of many attributes that demonstrates God's omniscience, simply meaning He knew who are resurrection to eternal life or not, prior to creating.

Some have expressed the notion that God can choose not to foreknow the fate of anyone, but myself, I wouldn't know where to find any sense with such a conception, since it would confuse the understanding of His omniscience. With that being said I can see why some might not find security understanding this attribute of God, if they were not secure in their knowledge of His love and will (not suspecting this of any individual, just making a general statement).

Thanks for sharing this. I can see we are viewing Sovereignty in completely different ways.
You are clearly a synergist. You state:
...and through this He knows what He will be doing with everyone, e.g. eternal life to those whom He knows will choose Him,...
My position is that God knows that no one will ever choose Him. Not ever.
Humans, left to themselves, will always choose themselves. They will never consider themselves evil or sinners in need of repentance. They will always fight to be their own ruler.

There is no synergistic cooperation. God knows this to be true.

The fate of all humanity, left to themselves, is eternal damnation.

God, however, elects to redeem some people, with no care as to that person's wish to be saved. God saves/redeems a person because God chooses to do so.

This is monergism. God acts as a dictator who makes the rules and determines who is or is not a citizen in His Kingdom. God is Sovereign. God rules. We don't. We can speak our mind to God. God is not obligated to respond or act upon anything we say. God chooses what He will do and when He will do it. God controls every aspect of Creation down to the cell that just died in your body. That is what Sovereign means.

Because you start with a synergist assumption, your idea of Sovereign is much different than mine. You lift humanity up to a higher plane than I would ever do. I view myself and all humanity as wretched rebels who never willfully choose God. God must choose us against our will and then break our will and sanctify us continually until we are made in the image of Christ.
 

NetChaplain

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thanks for sharing this. I can see we are viewing Sovereignty in completely different ways.
You are clearly a synergist.
My view so far concerning Synergism and Monergism is that they are only partial-truths (due to ignorance of certain wisdom which all lack), and that neither reflect my beliefs. It's my understanding that there is proof in the soul of every adult human that God has manifested Himself enough in us to choose to seek union with Him, and that most choose not pursue Him. I believe this is represented by the Lord Jesus being "the Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (Jhn 1:9); which Light is of the light of nature and the conscience, per Romans 1, esp. verses 19 and 20:

"They (not just the ungodly but all men) know the truth about God because He has made it obvious to them" (v 19 NLT); light of conscience.

"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God" (v 20 NLT); light of nature.
 

NetChaplain

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There is absolutely no basis for this in Scripture. I didn't even read past the first line of your post because this is straight heresy.
Thanks for letting me know what you think, and I understand. Hope the new post explains it good enough
 

Oseas3

Active Member


John 16:v.12-15 - Message of JESUS about the Holy Spirit and even the own Michael

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth - even Michael-, is come - Daniel 12:v.1-3- , he will guide you into all truth: for he - Michael- shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He - Michael - shall glorify me: for he -Michael-shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he -Michael - shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Thes. 4:v.16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael-, and with the trump of God - who sounds the Trumpet of God is Michael -, there will be resurrection inclusive-: and the dead in Christ shall rise first -in fulfilment of Daniel 12:v.1-3-.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air - IN THE HEAVEN - -a new celestial environment, the third heaven known of Paul the Apostle): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:v.7-17

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon -the Red Dragon-; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he is cast out into the earth, and his angels -his MINISTERS -2Cor.11:v.13-15- were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil -the Dragon- is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the Dragon see that he is cast unto the earth, he will persecute the woman which brought forth the man child. - Michael

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only Wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 

NetChaplain

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter


John 16:v.12-15 - Message of JESUS about the Holy Spirit and even the own Michael

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth - even Michael-, is come - Daniel 12:v.1-3- , he will guide you into all truth: for he - Michael- shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He - Michael - shall glorify me: for he -Michael-shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he -Michael - shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Thes. 4:v.16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael-, and with the trump of God - who sounds the Trumpet of God is Michael -, there will be resurrection inclusive-: and the dead in Christ shall rise first -in fulfilment of Daniel 12:v.1-3-.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air - IN THE HEAVEN - -a new celestial environment, the third heaven known of Paul the Apostle): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:v.7-17

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon -the Red Dragon-; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he is cast out into the earth, and his angels -his MINISTERS -2Cor.11:v.13-15- were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil -the Dragon- is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the Dragon see that he is cast unto the earth, he will persecute the woman which brought forth the man child. - Michael

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only Wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hi and thanks for the nice video, it reminds me how joyous and blessed it is for the believer to be in Christ, by His Spirit who has come into the souls of those reborn! God bless!
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is the Creator not Sovereign over all?

Is He only Sovereign over those who choose to follow Him?
If so, that makes God a secondary sovereign with humanity as the primary sovereign that determines to whom they will bow.

I disagree with your assertion.

The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. The people do not choose their leader. God does not "run for office" and get voted in.

Humans, by virtue of being born in the pit of sin, serve Satan as their master. God must choose to redeem humans if they are to become citizens in the Kingdom of God and children of the King.
Human's doing the choosing is not an option. Teaching that humans will desire God is not accurate. Humans cannot desire God until God chooses to redeem them.

John 8:41-44 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



If human are demonic and evil by nature, Then they are correctly completing the command of TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.

God hated them FIRST, unconditionally. He hated them from the foundation, created them totally depraved. So if human naturally hate God back, they are completing his command perfectly.
 
Top