Sovereignty of God in Salvation

WES

I am waiting!

 

For you to name all those first believers that is!

 

That is what is called Spin, Spin, Spin!

 

How were they taught of God? Through the teachings of the Apostles! The same way we are taught of God!

Paul was First generation believer! Did he not receive much of his teaching directly from Jesus and not the other Apostles who were fearful, and quite skeptical of him? Paul was a first generation believer, it was not the Apostles who knocked him off his horse on the Damascus road. It was Jesus! "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

"Whether bodily or in spirit I was taken into heaven"....Paul! That seems like first hand knowledge to me!

PROVE ME WRONG! or accept the truth! </font>[/QUOTE]John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 John 1:4, 5
4. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 8:31, 32
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

Were the Samaritans 1st or 2nd generation believers? Were all those who were taught of Jesus Christ before His death 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation believers? Was Nicodemus a 1st or 2nd generation believer? Was Joseph of Arimathaea a 1st or 2nd generation believer?

Ref: John Chapters 3, @ 4; Luke 24:50ff; 1 Corinthians 15:6.

Should I wait with bated breath while you name the 500?

 

Wes

You bragged repeatedly that you could name all those who first believed in Jesus Christ. Put up or shut up!

 

Wes

You bragged repeatedly that you could name all those who first believed in Jesus Christ. Put up or shut up! </font>[/QUOTE]Go back and read my post, I simply said I could name them! I did not say that I could name all of them, you misread my post. However you don't seem to disagree with the point that the Ephesians are indeed second generation believers, else you would have mentioned them in your post. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

You can shuffle your feet all you want but taken in the context it was presented you said you could name all of them, else why did you name the 12 whom you called 1st generation believers or those who "first believed", taught directly by God. You wrote [post of July 20, 11:38 AM]

That being said: 1st generation, 2nd generation, 3rd generation, 50th generation; who cares. The New Testament was written for all Christians and the Apostle Paul states of the Old Testament [Romans 15:4] For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

If you don't believe that then I feel sorry for you!

 

I happen to believe this verse is true, but it begs the question, If the Holy Ghost is the one who does all the teaching, why is the church needed? Why is the bible needed? Why did the Apostles write their portions of the New Testament? Why were the Apostles Commissioned by Jesus to Go into the world making disciples? The Holy Spirit (Ghost) does not need the help of the apostles, the bible, etc., The Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

In all honesty, if you don't know anything I could say would be superfluous!

 

I happen to believe this verse is true, but it begs the question, If the Holy Ghost is the one who does all the teaching, why is the church needed? Why is the bible needed? Why did the Apostles write their portions of the New Testament? Why were the Apostles Commissioned by Jesus to Go into the world making disciples? The Holy Spirit (Ghost) does not need the help of the apostles, the bible, etc., The Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

In all honesty, if you don't know anything I could say would be superfluous! </font>[/QUOTE]Look OldRegular, Jesus was speaking to his Apostles when he told them of "the comforter". They were already disciples of the Christ!

Stop wrongly dividing the word of truth! Your pompous attempts at superior intellect reveals your low level of spiritual maturity!

please note that in that scripture Jesus tells his disciples "and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Paraphrase, The holy spirit will remind you of my teachings! Who received Jesus' Teachings? The Apostles!

Who do we learn from? THE APOSTLES! The Holy Spirit reminds us of what we have heard from the Word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]I told you anything I could say would be superfluous!

 

It's not a matter of superfluousness, its a matter of truth. What you say is only partly true because you do not consider, as shown in my last post, the whole scripture. You stopped thinking at, "John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things." Leaving out the rest of the truth that explains it. The evidence is that you often do just that. You take truths out of their context, applying them to your thinking when in reality, they don't support your thinking at all when left in their context.

That's the single most important reason that I am not a Calvinist. Throughout Calvinism the extraction of tidbits of truth from their context, is used to make and "support" Calvinisms doctrines. That is not "rightly dividing the word of Truth", that is building a false doctrine.

A wise man will see that truth and avoid making that mistake over and over and over again. </font>[/QUOTE]I told you anything I could say would be superfluous! Will you believe Scripture for a change?

1 John 2:18-29
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

And now back to the Sovereignty of God in Salvation:

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with rebirth or being born again. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.

John 3:3, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

1. It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2. It is putting the law in the heart.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

3. It is quickening or making alive.

John 6:63, KJV
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

John 5:21, KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

4. It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed.”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

God through the richness of His grace has granted to His elect spiritual life so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.