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Sovereignty Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, May 5, 2007.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Now you are actually trying to answer to my "Sproul" thread -- whether God is the Source of evil. Well, He is NOT!

    "Command" is another word for "sovereign," my friend -- as in "ten commandments." If you obey them, God is sovereign in your life to the extent of your obedience to His commands.

    What we see in humans is that self is most often sovereign but God and Satan have their little domains. Guys especially compartmentalize and God may be sovereign in their homes but often Satan is sovereign in their workplace, for instance, and perhaps self in their sexual thought life.

    God doesn't have sovereignty that you describe. Because He did NOT create evil, it has been demonstrated in nature that we and Satan have sovereignty in some areas that, while they go against God's will, do NOT change God's ability to bring all His purposes to His ends.

    Like Sproul tries to explain regarding good and evil -- there is "proximate" and "ultimate" good and evil. This may be true but it doesn't get Sproul "off the hook" for his claim that God created evil. I believe Sproul (and you) has that argument confused with the sovereignty argument -- that there is "proximate" and "ultimate" sovereignty and God is ALWAYS ULTIMATELY sovereign!

    Proximate sovereignty is given to man whereby Adam could sovereigntly choose to disobey AND INTRODUCE EVIL INTO GOD'S CREATION!! Ultimate sovereignty tells us that Adam isn't going to get away with it! :laugh:

    skypair
     
    #21 skypair, May 8, 2007
  2. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Absolutely appalling.
    I can't even imagine what you can be thinking.
     
    #22 Isaiah40:28, May 8, 2007
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    skypair has never been a slave of anyone. Sovereign slaves choose their own master, they cannot have anyone sovereign over them a?

    DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

    GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    Remember your status and stop talking as if you had a say in anything that happens. You are suffering delusions of granduer. You're a slave bought at market for use by your Master. Tell the rest of them that have the fever that they too are nothing but slaves at their Masters bidding.

    God is Sovereign. :) He even calls Himself Sovereign Lord. Strange, I know you call yourself that as well but there can only be one so one of you is mistaken. :)

    john.
     
    #23 johnp., May 8, 2007
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    How many fruit trees were there in the Garden of Eden, john?? One -- take it or leave it? Two -- one good, one bad? No, there were many right options and Adam had MANY choices in obedience to God -- just like we do. WE get to choose. God does not command that we all be preachers or teachers or etc. He only commands that we believe on His Son -- be saved. His predestined plan thereafter still allows plenty of right options for us to choose.

    Whereas to get out of the Garden, there was only one wrong move -- now to get into the Garden, there is only one right move. WE choose. God does not force us nor make it irresistible to us.

    skypair
     
    #24 skypair, May 9, 2007
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello skypair.

    One too many wasn't it? :)

    Rather than say he had many right options isn't it better to say he had only one bad one?

    Adam had only one law to obey and that was not a 'to do' it was a 'to not to do'. :) We have only one law 'to do' and that is to trust in the sacrifice Christ made for us.

    We do? You might but it is God who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. He is Sovereign.

    Command? I thought preaching was a gift.

    There you go, we agree. :)

    I have no knowledge of a predestined plan as such. Predestined is used of people only. The same as elect. His plan is fixed and immutable. What He determined will happen and nothing else. No point being a Despot if you can't do as you please is there?

    No, to be technical, there were two wrongs that drove man out of the garden.

    We are sovereign.

    If God wants to force us He is Sovereign and will do as He pleases without our consent.

    nor make it irresistible to us :) It can only become irresistable once one can see it. Unless a man is born again he cannot see.

    john.
     
    #25 johnp., May 9, 2007
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    It's ironic that...

    ... Calvinists think that God can't "foresee" until He predestines and how man cannot "see" unless he is predestined.

    Seems to me that God could "foresee" who would "see" and predestine them to election!!

    I think maybe Calvinists need to consult with an optometrist. :laugh:

    skypair
     
    #26 skypair, May 10, 2007
  7. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    skypair.

    You can believe what God likes but I will do the same. :)

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    You will need to shout louder to hide the truth.

    You just show how much you don't know. Pre - notice the pre in predestine. Try destined in advance. Get to know what destined means and then try the 'pre' skypair.
    Now try this on, Jesus is "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."
    Why do they stumble? They stumble because they were destined, know what the word means yet? Destined : to have it as one's fate. fate : the individual destiny or fortune of a person or thing; what happens to someone or something.

    They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.

    Now try this on, " `Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
    LEV 19:14.

    God does not obey His own law but puts a stumbling block in front of the blind. Why? So that they stumble because that is what He has determined.
    You need to consult a dictionary instead of making it up as you go along. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

    You should pray for yourself, He is getting you to talk as if you know nothing.

    john.
     
    #27 johnp., May 10, 2007
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