Sovereignty vs. Chance?

Who is the "author" or "cause" of sin?

 

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isa. 45: 7).

Doesn't GOD control everything? Isn't "Free will" an illusion? latterrain77

 

Hehe. God exercises his sovereighty only in the laws of physics that he authored. Throwing a die is not random in the least bit: it is entirely deterministic, and if I knew every single variable that would affect that throwing of the die, then I could predict with 100% accuracy the result of the throw.

Nothing in life, except MAYBE quantum mechanics (which I have next to know understanding of ) is really 'random'.

 

Then, if God is the efficient cause of all that is, then He is the author of sin; and if He is the author of sin, how can it be morally right for Him to condemn man to an endless hell for doing what He caused him to do?

 

A response to Isaiah 45:7:

http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi025.asp

 

RE: Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Personally, I believe in the Sovereignty of God with the following qualification:

I am not able to declare or put my stamp of approval on the phrase that God "created evil" in the sense that He was the designer and architect of sin. That He allowed another (Lucifer) to take it upon himself to serve in that capacity, in that way I believe He "created" evil and fullfills the Isaiah passage.

He specifically allowed for it in His Schema of the universe. Satan filled the gap of those specifics after his fall.

Did God know all the details of sin and its definition before He created Lucifer? Yes, of course.

Does God take ulitimate responsibility as Sovereign of the Universe TO EVENTUALLY DEAL with sin/evil and eradicate it from the Universe?
Yes, He does, He has and He will.


HankD

 

Hi Scott. GOD has ALL power, and ALL authority over everything. HIS power and might is not subject to, or limited by anything or other.

GOD has explictly warned his children that evil must be avoided. However, is this human avoidance of sin done by human choice? Or, is it predestined beforehand, outside of ourselves, on our behalf?

We humans still sin. Is the dynamic of "sinning" itself our own choice? (Rom. 7: 14-25, particularly v20). Or is even THAT choice just an illusion?

Does Rom. 7: 14-25 show that "choice" is an illusion? If yes, then dosen't that serve to highlight the absolute GLORY of the Cross (where GOD "chose" to make human choice of no practical importance by removing our need to choose)? If no, then where does that leave us when we sin of our own "choice?" Thanks! latterrain77

 

Hi HankD. I agree (1 John 1: 5). I think Isa. 45: 7 shows that mankind has NO choice and that GOD has ALL the choice. I don't think it's possible to fully understand Isa. 45: 7 (at least I don't) without looking at it in light of GOD's absolute sovereignty; including over so-called human free will, and human events. Thanks HankD.

 

WHAT? The biblical literalist don't want to take Isaiah 45:7 literally?

 

Yes latterrain, it is a difficult passage.

I don't trouble myself about it though

HankD

 

Hi coloradaFB. Thank you for the post. I understand your comment. I don't think of myself as a Biblical literalist in the strict sense of that term. For example, I don't believe that Jesus is a "literal" door with hinges (John 10: 9), nor do I believe that Jesus is a literal vine of a tree (John 15: 1). Yet, I firmly believe the full 100% inerrancy of those verses, as well as the entire Bible (which often is literal and oft times not). Sometimes it is BOTH.

With respect to Isa. 45: 7, I have been challenged by this verse for many years. I can't say that I have a grasp of it, and that is why I posed two questions (not statements) after quoting the verse. I think the verse is closely connected to the topic of this thead (i.e. "free will" and "choice"), neither of which actually exist in my view. Let's briefly take Isa. 45: 7 apart and see where it gets us:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isa. 45: 7).

We know that GOD "literally" forms the light and creates darkness because the Bible tells us this is so (Gen. 1: 2-3). We also know that GOD Himself is light without any darkness in HIM at all (1 John 1: 5). We know that GOD "makes peace" because the Bible tells us so (Prov. 16: 7, 2 Thess. 3: 16). So, without going any further, we KNOW that the first three statements in Isa. 45: 7 are TRUE and literal. Now, we get to the fourth claim of this verse; "....and create evil."

Since parts one and two are literally true, is there any logical reason to believe that part four is NOT? After answering that question, take a look at Proverbs 19: 23.

Though some translations refer to the word "evil" as "disaster" (which would make the study very easy), the Hebrew word ("Ra") for "evil" seems to have the connotation that the KJV states (i.e. bad, evil) but could also mean "calamity." It is the same word that is used in MANY other verses to depict the word "evil" in the Bible. For example, it's the same word "evil" (ra) that is translated "evil" in Gen. 6: 5 ("his heart was only evil continually"). Obviously, this verse cannot mean; "his heart was only DISASTER continually." It means EVIL (as we commonly think of that word) and is the same word as used in Isa. 45: 7. Maybe some Hebrew specialists (or Calvinists) on the board can offer some suggestions here.

We know that GOD caused wars and famines to come upon nations - including Israel. Could Isa. 45: 7 be referring to this kind of "evil" (i.e. earthly disasters such as wars, famines, etc)? Well, maybe - but I feel like I'm copping out a little when I try to rest on this. Still, wars and famines are certainly fantastic misery and pure evil for those who endure them. It's like the old saying; "when my neighbor is out of work it's a recession, when I'm out of work it's a depression." Thanks coloradoFB. latterrain77

 

It's good that you've already recognized that the word is translated as "disaster"/"calamity" in this verse in other versions. But I think there's one problem with your thinking: you're assuming a single Hebrew word must correspond to a single English word, and that the word must carry the same meaning every time it is used. If only translation were that simple! In every language, there are words that have a very specific meaning (e.g. "platypus") while others have a more general meaning and can be used for a range of meanings (e.g. "love"). I believe the Hebrew "ra" carries a range, and context determines the meaning. It appears 663 times in the OT, and the breakdown of how the KJV has translated it as follows: evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, miscellaneous 34.

 

Hi BrianT. Thank you for your comments. I appreciate it. While I understand the potential of the word being translated "disaster," I'm not fully confident with that usage in Isa. 45: 7. The weight of the numbers that you provided (good job by the way) seems to lean more towards the common understanding of the word "evil" (rather than "disaster"). Nevertheless, I'm not dogmatic (sheepmatic is more like it).

I find some harmony with the first usage when I look at it with the overall view of GOD's overriding power and authority in EVERYTHING. For example, what can be more horrible than hell? - nothing - yet we know that GOD Himself has established that eternal place of torment. Thanks BrianT. latterrain77

 

Don't give me too much credit, I just know where the good tools are on the web.

Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org and look up the verse in question (in this case, Isa 45:7). When the verse is displayed, you'll see some blue boxes immediately to the left of the verse. Click the 'C' box, for the concordance tools. (The 'K' box is for the "Treasury of Scripture Knowledge", the 'L' box is for Lectionaries/Commentaries, the 'V' box is for Version comparison, the 'D' box is for Dictionary topics, the 'I' box (if present) is for Images and Maps, and the music box (if present) is for hymns that deal with that verse).

Anyway, after you clicked the 'C' box, it will display the Hebrew or Greek text, and break down the verse into its Strong numbers. From here, you can click on a single English word (to see where that English word appears throughout the KJV), or the Strongs number (to see where the underlying Hebrew or Greek word appears throught scripture, and how the KJV translated it each time, complete with pronounciation guides, dictionary definitions and running totals).

Blueletterbible RULES! I just wished it had all these features for additional versions.

 

Hi BrianT. Thank you for your comments and the link. I very much appreciate it. WOW! The Hebrew and Greek translations on that site are terrific. Thank you for pointing it out.

I'm very "old school" in my studies Brian. I always sit down with an open physical KJV Bible and Concordance. Sometimes I'll cross-reference with an NASB as well. For me, the whole dynamic of "turning the physical pages" is important (it helps to keep me alert). Thanks again BrianT. I appreciate it. latterrain77

 

I'm sorry if this seems like a strawman to you. I've never seen it adquately answered, or explained *why* it's a misrepresentation of Calvinism (or at least the logical conclusion Calvinism leads to).

Did you really? How? Didn't God predestine it, and control all previous events that led up to your posting (including your past experiences, formation of your brain and thought processes, etc.) so that you had no option but to respond, fulfilling what was predetermined and ultimately unavoidable? </font>[/QUOTE]You have a false understanding of Calvinism.

Being a Calvinist does not mean that one gives up all choices nor does it mean that God predestinates that I wear Blue Socks to Church this morning. If giving up choices were a part of the package called predestination then commands to make choices would not be in the Bible.

 

Now I am confused RE: "choices" from the Calvinistic point of view.

What kind and which choices can we make?
Are you saying God makes the big choices and we make the little ones?

HankD

 

As far as I know, some of the best Hebrew experts the world will ever see translated the King James

 

But how does Calvinism not logically require this conclusion? If God is in control of everything, he was in control of the circumstances that led to making the blue socks available in the store when you were there to purchase them, he was in control of the neurons in your brain that led to the decision to buy the blue socks in the first place, to put them in your drawer, and to put them on your feet this morning. Does not Calvinism ultimately require that because of God's ultimate sovereignty over everything, you had no alternative, no possibility to deviate from the circumstances that led up to you putting on your blue socks this morning?

Exactly. I believe the Bible teaches we have choices. Which is why I can't accept Calvinism, because Calvinism when it reaches its logical conclusion turns choice into an illusion.

[ July 13, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]