Sovereignty vs. Chance?

But how does Calvinism not logically require this conclusion? If God is in control of everything, he was in control of the circumstances that led to making the blue socks available in the store when you were there to purchase them, he was in control of the neurons in your brain that led to the decision to buy the blue socks in the first place, to put them in your drawer, and to put them on your feet this morning. Does not Calvinism ultimately require that because of God's ultimate sovereignty over everything, you had no alternative, no possibility to deviate from the circumstances that led up to you putting on your blue socks this morning?

Exactly. I believe the Bible teaches we have choices. Which is why I can't accept Calvinism, because Calvinism when it reaches its logical conclusion turns choice into an illusion. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no way that a truly logical person could ever believe or accept all the paradoxes of the Bible.

Christianity itself is not logical. It is not logical that a dead man can live again. It is not logical that a virgin can give birth. It is not logical that a man can walk on water. It is not logical that a person can heal another with a touch.

Christianity defies Logic.

 

"For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." -Jeremiah 7:30, 31

I am a Primitive Baptist, and I believe in election and predestination. However, it is the duty of every honest student of the Scriptures to rightly divide the word of truth because the word of God is truth without error. I accept Jeremiah 7:30, 31 to be as equally inspired as Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

So often the children of God are forced by the religious world to fit themselves into a particular theological pursuasion, Calvinism or Arminianism. Generally, Old Line Primitive Baptists do not accept the doctrine of Absolute Predestination. Do any of you have AIM? I would be interested in discussing the matter further with any of you Calvinist brethren who are seriously interested.

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

As far as I know, some of the best Hebrew experts the world will ever see translated the King James </font>[/QUOTE]Hi t.u.l.i.p. I agree! The KJV translators are the "gold standard." Thanks! latterrain77

 

So why then cannot God who has free will give it (free will) to whomever He chooses?

HankD

 

So why then cannot God who has free will give it (free will) to whomever He chooses?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]So why then cannot God predestinate those whom He has chosen (elected) to Salvation and still allow them to make choices?

 

Brian,there in lies the issue. We take issue and find a sticking point with God "controlling the dice". What we should realize, however, is that it matters not what we logically or emotionally think about something, but should acknowledge and accept what the Scriptures teach about it.We see redemption based on God's grace through faith alone given to His elect; yet we see condemnation to those who reject Christ because they were created as vessels of wrath and they are without excuse if they go to hell. This may not be very palatable to us who think we somehow deserve a choice in the matter, but that doesn't take away the fact that the Scriptures clearly teach it. God doesn't control our thoughts before we're saved. Our sinful dead nature does this. Yet, God is sovereign over such a nature. We are naturally inclined to free-willingly sin. This, truly, is a paraodox of which we shan't understand in this time of our finite intellect. We must believe, however, that God's election and reprobation is done in accordance with all of His other attributes: Holiness, Justice, Hatred for Sin, Grace, Mercy, Loving-Kindess, Patience, Wrath, etc. We cannot attribute human definition of justice to what God's justice is. Only He knows.

 

I never said He couldn't.

Psalm 115:3 ... our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.


HankD

 

Do any of you Calvinist brethren have any comments on Jeremiah 7:30, 31?

 

Thank you for further illustrating the problem of the result of Calvinism's absolute sovereignty. If "God controls the dice", and God controls the neurons in my brain, how can *I* "acknowledge and accept" it unless God predestines me to? How can I "choose" to believe it, if God has orchestrated my entire past and formed my brain, so that I have absolutely no alternative but to believe exactly what he has predetermined I should believe? Calvinists talk on one hand that God has complete control, and then turn around and imply that *I* have the control to accept Calvinism! They defeat their own argument, and your words above are a textbook example of this.

God isn't absolutely sovereign then? How can anything happen, including thoughts and choice, that wasn't orchestrated by God's predetermination?

Ah, I agree. Which is why I get a kick of out Calvinists who think they have it figured out.

Brian

 

It may be a problem with human logic, but it's no problem with God's as found in Scripture. Man has made it a problem by presuming we have a right to free will and choicee.

You can't. I never said you could.

I never implied that you have the control to accept Calvinism. It's only by the grace of God that one could accept such a difficult, but true, doctrine. Take John 6 for example:

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus [3] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him

There were many who had a hard time accepting Christs' words, but those who did accept them, accepted them by faith because they were "drawn by the Father", they were and had been granted to "learn from the Father."

I'm not trying to defeat my own argument, rather accept my finite intellect in understanding it. However, by grace through faith, I believe it.

 

As I stated before, I am a Primitive Baptist, and I do believe in election and predestination. I keep stating that because I do not want you all to think that I deny these truths. However, I do not accept the doctrine of absolute predestination. We are Calvinistic, but not fatalistic like Calvinists. It is time that Calvinists stop dismissing the obvious contradiction between absolute predestination and accountability as "mystery." Only about one-tenth of Primitive Baptists believe in absolute predestination, and I was told by one of them that God predestinated all his sins, and Jesus died for them. Such a view does not magnify the sovereignty of God, but blasphemes His name. The doctrine actually belittles the power of God to say that He can only govern His creatures as a machinist instead of an incomparable Sovereign. I suppose you brethren do not have any comments on Jeremiah 7:30, 31?

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

Good post Primitive Baptist. I believe in the Scriptural view of election and predestination, but I do not believe in Calvinism.

God had allowed men to freely choose whether to accept the Gospel or not. God has also predestined all of His children (who are the ones who believe) to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

I dissent from the remark that Calvinists are fatalists. Hyper-Calvinists are in that they do not believe in the universal preaching of the gospel. Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and Spurgeon, William Carey, and Adoniram Judson are among Calvinists who were definitely not fatalistic, but preached the gospel of "whosoever will" very zealously and passionately. Calling genuine Calvinists fatalists is misrepresentation.

 

Terry_Herrington, Primitive Baptists are Calvinistic. We believe in election and predestination the way Calvinists do, but we reject the doctrine of absolute predestination. God does not grant every man the "free will" to accept an offer that He never gave. I suppose I would be considered a "Hyper-Calvinist." In response to deadmen.org, how can you claim that Calvinists are not fatalists? Calvinists are fatalists, and that is not a misrepresentation.

 

If I may….
I’m a nooooob to this system of thought of ether being Calvinist or Arminian, but why is it an “either or” ?
Cannot God be sovereign yet allow us to make choices? But not make choices which would deter him from his ultimate goal or promise?

What little I know of Calvin or this other guy is only what I hear or read what others say and most who hate the Calvin system say either God created sin or God made some to suffer his wrath for his delight. On the other hand if the Arminian system is played out it appears to lead to open theism.
Ether one is beyond my human ability to except.

When I see these debates it seems you always have one side representing the human nature of “freewill”, if there really is such a thing, or maybe you could call it those whose think more highly of them selves than they should against those who place God over man or God over robots.

So which is it… who has the greatest desire? God or us?
Do we always make choices based upon the greatest desire at the time?

I don’t think either of those two, Calvin or Arminus received some special revelation that we have to chose one side or the other.. nor do I believe anyone here does either.
I’m glad God placed in me a desire to chose Christ over the desire not to chose Christ. I don’t believe this statement puts me in any camp nor am I taking sides.

 

if God conceives and plans and creates in the spirit realm. wouldnt you think that he could replay the plan multiple times until all human choices involved, conform to his goals. then and only then would he allows his creation to unfold in the physical realm.

is he not perfect ?.

so shouldnt everything works out to his glory...because it was originally planned to unfold in such a manner.

when He said Let there be light, the plan was finalized in the spirit realm..by faith..every detail. when we believe Jesus is Lord..we are escorted by faith into the formulations of the foundation of the worlds planning stage and get a peek at just how he accomplished this...by faith. or else how many times does God have to remind us that Jesus was already crusified and coronated lord before the foundation of the world.
that even death was defeated before anything physical was ever created.

when did your spirit get resurrected from death, or when were you judged before God.
before the foundation of the world..by faith. or said in another way..in the spirit realm.

the sons of God..as Jesus bride was there..glorifying in the lords presence..all before the foundation of the world...before their actual physical birth.
thats predestination. thats pre existence in the spirit realm. thats sharing in the Glory of Christ before the foundation of the world.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

everything is under Gods control to the last detail.

even the laws of probabilitiy has a mathematical parameter it exists within.

your die will do what its mathematically predicted to do.

 

I'm not sure what you're terming "absolute predestination". Do you mean "double" predestination? Excuse my ignorance. Also, how are Calvinists fatalists?

 

Absolute predestination is the doctrine that maintains God predestinated all things, and that everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen is just how God predestinated it to be and nothing else. That is what "genuine" Calvinists, as you call them, believe. That is fatalism and nothing less. The Scriptures do not teach such a doctrine as Jeremiah 7:30, 31 clearly demonstrate. By the way, I never received a comment on that Scripture. However, this does not negate the doctrines of depravity, unconditional election, particular redemption, effectual grace, and the preservation of the saints. God is sovereign, and "and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:35) This I do not deny. How do you interpret Jeremiah 7:30, 31 according to your doctrine that God has predestinated all things?

"For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." -Jer. 7:30, 31

As I stated before, Such a view does not magnify the sovereignty of God, but blasphemes His name. The doctrine actually belittles the power of God to say that He can only govern His creatures as a machinist instead of an incomparable Sovereign who has declared the end from the beginning. The Scriptures declare that God causes the wrath of man to praise Him but restrains the remainder thereof. By definition, how can it be stated that God restrains something that He is the cause of? Also, what would you think of a man who believed that God predestinated all his sins, and Jesus died for them?

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

I agree. blueletterbible.com is a great site to use for bible study. I haven't found anything else that comes close. BTW I used to attend the Peninsula Bible Church where Ray Stedman was the pastor.

 

Ok, I believe that.

Fatalism may be what you term it, but fate has nothing to do with it. I term this biblical truth, "Providence". Fatalism implies a fixed end from everyone's perspective. Providence, has a destined end, but only God knows and determines such an end. We do not know what the end of an individual shall be. This is why we are to preach the gospel to all. Those who belong to God will come to Him. The Scriptures do teach Providence as opposed to fatalism. God Himself is not guilty of any wickedness, yet He uses our wickedness for the sake of His glory. Did God determine that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery? Yes. Was God guilty of this sin? No. So, how did God determine it without being guilty of it? By simply letting the sinful nature take its course, that His purposed good would ultimately come of it.

Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good,in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (My emphasis added)

Concerning Jeremiah 7:30,31
"For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."

In other words, God did not cause this sin in a positive manner; rather how the absence of heat leaves cold, apart from the positive influence of God, arises sin. God purposely allowed them to do this, that at the time He appointed, His glory would be made known through the wrath He would incur. There are not a few passages that speak to the fact that God has ordained that evil be. If I am wrong, please bear with my ignorance, and don't take me as proud. I'm always reforming and learning, to be patient. I believe, wholeheartedly, that God works all things to the counsel of His will. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me.