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speaking in tongues in Corinth
- Thread starter UZThD
- Start date
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Whenever life get's you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough.
When people are stxxx, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough...
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving.
Revolving at nine hundred miles an hour.
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
The sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm at forty thousand miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the milky way.
The galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand lightyears side-to-side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand lightyears thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand lightyears wide.
We're thirty thousand lightyears from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years.
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz.
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know?
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's xxxxxx all down 'ere on Earth!
David
And things seem hard or tough.
When people are stxxx, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough...
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving.
Revolving at nine hundred miles an hour.
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
The sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm at forty thousand miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the milky way.
The galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand lightyears side-to-side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand lightyears thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand lightyears wide.
We're thirty thousand lightyears from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years.
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz.
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know?
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's xxxxxx all down 'ere on Earth!
David
David Michael Harris
Active Member
I sense from your posts that you dismiss the thought of a spiritual tongue completly.
I respect your view. I can do nothing about my view of things I am afraid.
Where did I get this tongue from then? I never had it before I was a Christian, and it seems quite natural and fluent to me.
I admit that I dont fully understand. I will make it an issue and pray to God that if I am in error for Him to show me and correct me.
David
I respect your view. I can do nothing about my view of things I am afraid.
Where did I get this tongue from then? I never had it before I was a Christian, and it seems quite natural and fluent to me.
I admit that I dont fully understand. I will make it an issue and pray to God that if I am in error for Him to show me and correct me.
David
===
Of course in my initial post I listed some who disagree with what you say is so "obvious. But just disregard them and their views and their reasons as inconsequential. That is oft done on this Board my short time here has shown.
But another who disagrees with you is also named "Smith."
That is Charles R. Smith who has the ThM from Dallas and the ThD from Grace. A fairly solid education I would say which should enable one to not miss the "obvious."
Now Smith in his doc work wrote a 500 page dissertation on Tongues" , which to me means that it is "obvious" that he knows something about the subject ; it is distilled in his "Tongues In Biblical Perspective," in which he expresses the opinion, contrary to yours, that BOTH the tongues at Pentecost (with a minor qualification) AND the tongues at Corinth were not languages spoken by men!
Therefore what is so very "obvious" to you is not at all obvious to some others--is it
David Michael Harris
Active Member
No, that song I posted is a satire from Monty Python, its not total wholesome but it puts things in perspective when we become narrow minded sometimes I think. Like Abraham when he had misgivings about Gods promise, he went outside and looked up at the stars and everything fell into place.
My God bless you.
David
My God bless you.
David
UZThd:
U said it, "Of course, something is not evidenced just because someone has an opinion on it or can provide list a of adherents to a view."
You sure like to throw the ThD's around as if they add something to the consensus of plain Scripture though. I could easily gather a list of Doc's myself to proport the opposite opinions. Those men mean nothing to the truth of God's Word.
Thanks anyway.
U said it, "Of course, something is not evidenced just because someone has an opinion on it or can provide list a of adherents to a view."
You sure like to throw the ThD's around as if they add something to the consensus of plain Scripture though. I could easily gather a list of Doc's myself to proport the opposite opinions. Those men mean nothing to the truth of God's Word.
Thanks anyway.
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Barrel of laughs....
David
David
I appreciate the post by LOGOS 1560. . It gives some reasons instead of simply pontificating. As my initial post said, experts disagree. When Christian scholars of good faith after study disagree , then, neither view is "obvious" except , of course, to those who think they speak in ex cathedra ( I'm not saying it is you who do that).
===
"1. Exactly the same word ('glossa') is used here in the Greek
===
However
1) lexicons are not convinced that glossa ( pronounced w- long 'o') must mean a language of men. EG,
a) Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, p. 161.
b) Abbott-Smith, p. 93
c) New International Dictionary of NT Theology, 3:1080.
d) Theological Dictionary of the NT, 1:722-724.
Of course just a list of experts proves little. What does have evidential value is the reasons which formed their opinions. It is those reasons which should be countered if one desires to show them as wrong.
2) NT words do not always have the same meaning. The words 'apostle' or 'sancification' are examples. I wonder if DA Carson's comment may have relevance when discussing word fallacies. He says that it is often wrong to limit the range of meaning of a word. ( Exegetical Fallacies, 57-62). It is wrong to think that two usages of a word must have the same meaning!
So it seems that just because Paul called that manifestation in Corinth 'glossolalia' it need not have been a language of men.
===
as in the Pentecost account, where the hearers from different regions indisputably heard a variety of genuine languages spoken.
===
However,
1) it IS questioned as to whether the 120 spoke in the foreign languages of their auditors. Smith in 'Tongues in Biblical Perspective' , p.37,says they did not. Smith bases his position on (1) heteros, (2) apoptheggomai, (3) laleo, (4) the charge of drunkeness.
2) And many see the phenomenon in Acts as different from that in Corinth
a) International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
b) ICC (ref above)
c) NICNT (ref above)
d) ISBE (ref above)
e) FF Bruce in Acts, The Greek Text, p. 82
f) Longenecker, in Expositor's Bible Commentary, 9:271
Therefore, it may not be a stong position to require that Acts must interpret 1 Cor 12/14 for us.
===
.
3. Most conclusively of all, the quotation from Isaiah in verse 21 takes us to the time when the people of God heard what seemed to them the gibberish of the Assyrian language, but which was nevertheless authentic speech. This is seen as a parallel with the uncomprehending listener who hears a man speaking in 'tongues.' It may sound like gibberish, but it is authentic speech" (THE CHARISMATICS AND THE WORD OF GOD, p. 46). [/qb][/QUOTE]
===
However, the list of scholars provided above do not find that conclusive at all. Their reasons include: (1) The glossolalia in 1 Cor was for private not public benefit. (2) It was for Gentiles not for Jews. (3) It is in Corinth a judicial sign and does not lead to salvation.
FF Bruce thinks that the only purpose of Paul's allusion to Isaiah was to confirm that "a divine communication in strange tongues addressed to the deliberately disobedient will but confirm them in their disobebedience... ." New Cent., Bib)
For Paul to say that two phenomena are alike in one way does not mean he intends for us to see them as being alike in every way. That may be the logical failure to recognize distinctions.
Since I do not speak in tongues, I have no goal in in this thread in proving any of my views except this one: Bible students should be reaL students who genuinely examine arguments and not be little protestant popes who suppose that something must be true JUST because they think it is . imo that honors God and respects His Word.
[ April 22, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
===
"1. Exactly the same word ('glossa') is used here in the Greek
===
However
1) lexicons are not convinced that glossa ( pronounced w- long 'o') must mean a language of men. EG,
a) Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, p. 161.
b) Abbott-Smith, p. 93
c) New International Dictionary of NT Theology, 3:1080.
d) Theological Dictionary of the NT, 1:722-724.
Of course just a list of experts proves little. What does have evidential value is the reasons which formed their opinions. It is those reasons which should be countered if one desires to show them as wrong.
2) NT words do not always have the same meaning. The words 'apostle' or 'sancification' are examples. I wonder if DA Carson's comment may have relevance when discussing word fallacies. He says that it is often wrong to limit the range of meaning of a word. ( Exegetical Fallacies, 57-62). It is wrong to think that two usages of a word must have the same meaning!
So it seems that just because Paul called that manifestation in Corinth 'glossolalia' it need not have been a language of men.
===
as in the Pentecost account, where the hearers from different regions indisputably heard a variety of genuine languages spoken.
===
However,
1) it IS questioned as to whether the 120 spoke in the foreign languages of their auditors. Smith in 'Tongues in Biblical Perspective' , p.37,says they did not. Smith bases his position on (1) heteros, (2) apoptheggomai, (3) laleo, (4) the charge of drunkeness.
2) And many see the phenomenon in Acts as different from that in Corinth
a) International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
b) ICC (ref above)
c) NICNT (ref above)
d) ISBE (ref above)
e) FF Bruce in Acts, The Greek Text, p. 82
f) Longenecker, in Expositor's Bible Commentary, 9:271
Therefore, it may not be a stong position to require that Acts must interpret 1 Cor 12/14 for us.
===
.
3. Most conclusively of all, the quotation from Isaiah in verse 21 takes us to the time when the people of God heard what seemed to them the gibberish of the Assyrian language, but which was nevertheless authentic speech. This is seen as a parallel with the uncomprehending listener who hears a man speaking in 'tongues.' It may sound like gibberish, but it is authentic speech" (THE CHARISMATICS AND THE WORD OF GOD, p. 46). [/qb][/QUOTE]
===
However, the list of scholars provided above do not find that conclusive at all. Their reasons include: (1) The glossolalia in 1 Cor was for private not public benefit. (2) It was for Gentiles not for Jews. (3) It is in Corinth a judicial sign and does not lead to salvation.
FF Bruce thinks that the only purpose of Paul's allusion to Isaiah was to confirm that "a divine communication in strange tongues addressed to the deliberately disobedient will but confirm them in their disobebedience... ." New Cent., Bib)
For Paul to say that two phenomena are alike in one way does not mean he intends for us to see them as being alike in every way. That may be the logical failure to recognize distinctions.
Since I do not speak in tongues, I have no goal in in this thread in proving any of my views except this one: Bible students should be reaL students who genuinely examine arguments and not be little protestant popes who suppose that something must be true JUST because they think it is . imo that honors God and respects His Word.
[ April 22, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]