Speaking in Tongues Volume 4...

[DHK]

Ray you have lied. You have made a false claim on this board. You have stated that tongues can be backed up by the Greek. I have challenged you on that statement.
Let me remind you of an interesting incident in history.

When Charles Taze Russel, under oath in court, was asked the question in a Canadian court, "Can you read Greek?" He answered in the affirmative. He was then given a Greek New Testament and asked to read a portion of it. He could not. Because of his perjury and fraud, he was threatened with deportation from this nation.

You are in the same boat. I would call attention to the moderators if necessary, if you continue to make false statements on this board. The like of bearing false witness is unacceptable. To say that the Greek demonstrates that glossa means ecstatic speech in the Greek and then not be able to demonstrate it is a straight out lie. It has to be dealt with. False statements and false propaganda will not be tolerated. Either prove your case or don't post anymore. This is your final warning before I set your case before the moderators. Lying and false propaganda is not tolerated. Either apologize for your statements, or give evidence for your statements.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

I have a basic (I'm no scholar) knowledge of NT Greek so I will not be lost in such a discussion. Plus, we could use it as a teaching opportunity for those that have not had a Greek class (or 4 as the case may be).

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Phillip, I knew what you said above back in the early 60's, so I do not need YOUR new epiphany given to me as though this was new truth.


Dr. Berrian

Dear DOCTOR Berrian;

Am I supposed to be impressed because you are about ten years older than me? Does this make the interpretation of the epistles and your so-called "full-gospel" any more true?

No. Actually, it is a personal attack on my scholarship.

All I have to do is hold a mirror up to reflect your opinion right back at you. You answer you own questions and mine too.

I will use your own verse:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. ESV

Remember, context.......if nobody in the auditorium can understand your gift of a different language then you can only be understood by God and you speak mysteries because it is not understandable to the crowd. Read about tongues in ACTS. This was NOT some unknown heavenly language that the Pentecostals have created in the last century.

So, you think Hinn is a good pastor?

Read again, what you yourself said about giving the Holy Spirit. In these cases it takes another person to impart the Spirit to the other person. I have yet to see a TV evangelist who did not "slay people in the spirit" by using his own actions and body-language. Hinn is a master at showmanship.

I also anxiously await your proof that Greek supports for "babbling" or as you say, a heavenly language.

God is a Spiritual being, language is a physical attribute, God needs language no more than He needs "time".

 

[Ray Berrian]

Phillip,

I was not referring to your scholarship or that of DHK. I am sure you know things that I do not know. We learn from each other. But, I am saying that your insights are flawed.

The tongues in Acts did not require an 'interpreter' as was necessary in the Corinthian Church.


I will use your own verse:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. ESV

The Apostle Paul seems content with speaking about the tongues of 'men and of angels.' The two are distinctly different.

No, I think Rev. Hinn is an evangelist with a pastor's heart. All of the accusations that are stated by people here, you will never hear when he preaches, which makes me think they are lies. He preaches the Gospel very well and calls people to come to Jesus. Is this too not good enough for some of you?

If your orthodoxy and zeal is so great why areen't people knocking down the doors of your church to get into a service?

I agree with you that he has charisma and does well in front of a T.V. camera. Would you prefer him to come out with a pious sad face, to prove that he is godly?

Deal with the truth in your English version before going to the Greek which might clear up the last vestages of your questions.

Go to the best Greek scholars and see what they have to say. Even then at times they are bias. You and others will have to sift out the truth for yourselves, as I have done. I agree with your last paragraph. Languages are given to each nation so we can pray to Him along with the 'gift of tongues' which is for some people to use to pray to God.

Again, I am not questioning your educational background. I am not against you or DHK in this matter [/Quote].

You said, 'God is a Spiritual being, language is a physical attribute, God needs language no more than He needs "time".'

Regards,
Ray

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I was not referring to your scholarship or that of DHK. I am sure you know things that I do not know. We learn from each other. But, I am saying that your insights are flawed.

The tongues in Acts did not require an 'interpreter' as was necessary in the Corinthian Church.

This is your rather insulting statement in which you say:

Your 'watered down' faith might serve you well, but some of us allow God's words to stand and mean what He meant in the original language of the first manuscripts.

We are all awaiting your response. This is the fifth time I have called for a response to it. I believe that you are quite unable to give a proper response from the Greek as you have claimed. Am I right?

Deal with the truth in your English version before going to the Greek which might clear up the last vestages of your questions.

You started the debate with the Greek. You end it. We await your answer. Don't post that which you cannot answer. Don't post false statements. Don't bear false witness. Don't post things that you cannot defend.

Go to the best Greek scholars and see what they have to say. Even then at times they are bias. You and others will have to sift out the truth for yourselves, as I have done.

As you have done?? Show me. I have asked for evidence five times now, and have gotten not one answer. This is another lie in which you are burying yourself.

Again, I am not questioning your educational background. I am not against you or DHK in this matter

No, you just fail to answer the questions asked of you.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Since some of the brethren do not trust the scholarship of others on the board; I will be glad to read what the other side of the discussion finds through their Greek scholars. What do they teach you? Enquiring ears want to hear what you find. This is not my assignment to prove anything, especially after repeatedly summarizing many people's views which also includes my understanding of the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Since some of the brethren do not trust the scholarship of others on the board; I will be glad to read what the other side of the discussion finds through their Greek scholars. What do they teach you? Enquiring ears want to hear what you find. This is not my assignment to prove anything, especially after repeatedly summarizing many people's views which also includes my understanding of the Word of God.

You made a statement. We believe it to be false. Therefore, we ask you to back up the statement that you made. That is only fair. We don't have to back up your statements Ray. That is for you to do. You have backed yourself in a corner. It is time for you to give your evidence or stop posting.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your 'watered down' faith might serve you well, but some of us allow God's words to stand and mean what He meant in the original language of the first manuscripts.

Ray,

In the above quote you have asserted that we (those who disagree with you on this issue) possess a "watered down faith" and attempted to justify that assertion by linking it to a supposed deeper understanding of the Bible in its original languages (in this case NT Greek).

I have informed you that I have at least a basic working knowledge of NT Greek (2 semsters at the college level and 2 semesters at the seminary level) so I will likely not be lost in a discussion regarding NT Greek. Likewise, DHK has asked you to further explain what you mean and defend your position using the NT Greek that you claim will support your argument.

If you can not or will not produce such evidence, that will conclusively prove your position, using NT Greek then as a moderator on this forum I expect you to withdraw the accusation you made about our faith and apologize. Otherwise, you may find yourself in trouble with the BB Administrative Council for making personal attacks against other posters (in violation of posting rule number 4).

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator

[ February 02, 2006, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Ray,

You are being given fair warning and plenty of time to address the situation that you created by the words you chose to type in this discussion thread. Continuing to ignore the repeated requests from two BB Forum Moderators for you to either conclusively defend your statement/position from the NT Greek (a claim which you made) or withdraw and apologize for the personal attack against the faith of those who disagree with you may result in you losing your posting privileges for violating BB Posting Rule Number 4. The ball is in your court. How you respond is your choice. However, the final outcome of the situation that you created now rests within the purview of the BB Administrative Council.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator