Speaking in Tongues

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
I've never thought of His ministry as a 3-ring circus

With all due respect Granny, Look at what happened everytime Jesus came on the scene, I think there was quite a bit action going on...I mean, there was always a stir, demon possesed people showing up, people getting healed, Jesus raising the dead prostitutes and adulterers getting saved, drunkards getting saved, not to mention the stir Jesus caused with all the religious people! Then, He went into a tax-collectors home for dinner ! I mean, these were action filled events, everywhere He went!

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
The 'revelatory' gifts have ended

To this I would say...God is the same today, yesterday, and forever...God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, dwells within us. I do not believe we should add to the bible, but I believe that God did not stop speaking to us. I do not believe the gifts have ceased. I do believe that above all the gifts, we should exercise the gift of love

If your son is on an emotional high, then his foundation is built upon sinking sand. He needs a firm foundation upon who Jesus is. I agree with you that some churches are like a three ring circus, trying to entertain people with the gospel. I disagree with that mentality. However, I do think that when christians decide to live the gospel, instead of just preach the gospel, that there will be a stir. Jesus said we are in a battle. We need to depend upon Him to fight our battle. Now, if He has already done what He claimed to do..."It is finished..." then how do we fight this battle? It is only through the Holy Spirit inside of us. My bible tells me, He is not dormant....so, how do you reconcile that with this comment?

The 'revelatory' gifts have ended

God Bless,
Naomi

 

AITB,
I responded to your post, pointing out that you had made a generalization that "non-tongues speaking churches are places of cold dead dry 'knowledge.'" It is a generalization whether defined by the adjective "some" or not. If my sarcasm was offensive to you I apologize. God works through His Word. Sometimes, in spite of man's weaknesses and errors, He glorifies His name anyway. That does not mean that we condone either doctrinal error or sin. I doubt if you would find anyone here that would deny that God works miracles, and that God answers prayer.
Belonging to two non-denominational churches won't give you a lot of insight into Baptists. Chances are that they are both ecumenical. As far as the SBC's endorsement, our church won't have anything to do with that movement because of the apostacy that has been in that denomination for such a long time now. Obviously by your remark, "non-tongues speaking churches," you must be affiliated with the Charismatic movement. This is a movement (marked by speaking in tongues) being used by Satan, to draw churches of every kind together into a one world church eventually--the church of the Anti- christ. I ask again and again, but never get an appropriate answer: If tongues were from God, why do Mormons, Hindus, Voo-doo worshippers speak in tongues?
DHK

 

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. He spoke to Samuel in an audible voice. He spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. He spoke to Abraham in a vision. He spoke to Joseph in dreams. God spoke in different ways in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
God has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son. The revelation of Jesus Christ, concerning his life, was written down for us in the gospels. The history of the church is given in the book of Acts. Instruction for the churches is given in the epistles. The New Testament ends with Christ revealing to us what will happen in the end times. God has spoken to us through his Son (that is the Word). Everything that we need to know about God is contained in the pages of the Bible. Before the New Testament was complete, there were certain gifts that were operational in the church. They were given to the first century church because they did not have the completed New Testament as you or I. God is the same: yesterday, today, and forever. That is why He gave the gifts to those in the first century only. Because they did not have the Word of God, and we do; to make up the deficiency. You ought to appreciate the fact that you have a completed Word of God, and not look for revelation elsewhere. If you find revelation from any source other than the Word of God, I can assure you, it will not be of God.
DHK

 

Originally posted by DHK:

AITB,
I responded to your post, pointing out that you had made a generalization that "non-tongues speaking churches are places of cold dead dry 'knowledge.'" It is a generalization whether defined by the adjective "some" or not.

It's not a generalization. If two or more are like I said then "some" is true. Are you saying that you know no "non-tongues speaking" churches are that way?

Why don't you define 'generalization'?

If my sarcasm was offensive to you I apologize.

Thanks.

I'll tell you what offends me as I respond to this...

God works through His Word. Sometimes, in spite of man's weaknesses and errors, He glorifies His name anyway.

I agree...

That does not mean that we condone either doctrinal error or sin.

It would be wrong of us to condone what we know is wrong.

I doubt if you would find anyone here that would deny that God works miracles, and that God answers prayer.

I think you're probably right since the posting eligibility was changed to exclude atheists.

Belonging to two non-denominational churches won't give you a lot of insight into Baptists.

It won't tell me much about the label - true. But reading here gives me a good idea of the range of theologies Baptists hold to. And some posts here have set out to say what a Baptist is.

Chances are that they are both ecumenical.

Why do you say that??? In my experience, non-denominational churches are conservative in doctrine, not liberal!!!

Anyway I gave you the links to BOTH of those churches and you could very easily have looked up their statements of faith and seen they are not ecumenical. Or, not if you define 'ecumenical' in the way I've understood it. Not at all! I'm disappointed you didn't even bother to look - that you'd prefer to post what is untrue about my churches, rather than click on a few links and read a little, to see what they do believe!

As far as the SBC's endorsement, our church won't have anything to do with that movement because of the apostacy that has been in that denomination for such a long time now.

Whatever. If you call acceptance of the SBC 'ecumenism' then yes, I guess we are guilty as charged. That's not what it usually means, though.

Obviously by your remark, "non-tongues speaking churches," you must be affiliated with the Charismatic movement.

Obviously. Well, I was a leader in a Bible study in which you couldn't lead unless you did NOT speak in tongues. I say 'was' but, I didn't stop being one because I started speaking in tongues.

Funny that...given how 'obvious' it is that I am affiliated with the Charismatic movement...

In fact neither of those two churches are part of the Charismatic movement; their doctrine is cessationalist.

Which probably is in their statements of faith - or if not, I daresay you could guess at it by their silence on 'healing and tongues' being for today...if you bothered to read them, that is.

This is a movement (marked by speaking in tongues) being used by Satan, to draw churches of every kind together into a one world church eventually--the church of the Anti- christ.

lol

I don't know your end-times theology; but, if you're a pre-trib rapture believer, these folks won't be around to form that church; they'll have been caught up in the clouds to be together with the Lord forever. So that will make it a bit tricky for them to form this one world church of the anti-christ. I guess the non-Christians will have to do it...

I ask again and again, but never get an appropriate answer: If tongues were from God, why do Mormons, Hindus, Voo-doo worshippers speak in tongues?

If kindness is from God then how come Mormons, Hindus, Voo-doo worshippers (and atheists!) are often as kind as Christians and sometimes kinder?

I ask again and again, but never get an appropriate answer.

AITB

 

God speaks to us by His Holy Spirit through His written word. Yes God is the same, but He chooses to act differently with man now then in N.T. days. Just as in N.T. days He acted differently, revealed Himself differently then in O.T. days.It is obvious in scripture that God reveals Himself differently in different times, no God does not change, but His methods do. God no longer gives new revelation as He has completed His written word, now it is His written word that He uses to reveal Himself. If God is still giving revelation as you say then the bible is not complete and we need to revise it to add everything evryone has said God has said to them. God uses the gifts in the N.T to reveal Himself to people, today He has given us a much greater gift to reveal Himself, the Bible. In 1Corinthians, Paul addressed what was going on in the Corinthian church, he did not tell us in that book or anyother book he wrote, neither did any of the other apostles tell us to use the gifts or to speak in tongues. Why is that? Did God purposely leave out information we needed on this subject see as how most of the N.T. says nothing about it? People who need to see things happening, who need more and more then what God gives the church are the ones weak in faith.
You act as if when peole believe scripture when it tells us the gifts have ceased that we do not believe the Holy Spirit lives in people, noone has said that, yet you keep repeating it. Why? Is the power the Holy Spirit gives us to live a christian life,and to do as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do, give us power to be His witnesses, share the gospel not good enough?
God doesn't hold out on His children,if the gidts are for today then God is playing favorites with His children, and holding out on others. This does not sound biblical, but you would have us to believe it is.

 

Being kind is not one of the gifts of the Spirit, and being nice to others anyone can do. Speaking in tongues is named as a gift, if it only comes from God,throught the indweeling Holy Spirit, then the question is valid. Does God give this gifts to unbelievers? Or are the other religions using it actually christians? Thus making their doctrines just as valid.

 

Originally posted by katie:

Being kind is not one of the gifts of the Spirit.
Yes, but it is part of the fruit of the Spirit...

[ July 02, 2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

Are we therefore your enemy because we tell you the truth? Do you think it is "unkind" of us to want to do that which is right in the sight of the Lord? I've never in all my days upon this earth seen some of the "excuses" that I have read of late concerning compromising God's Word.

Because someone is 'kind', don't make 'em right! Satan is a deceiver & he delights when he can lead anyone to depart from sound doctrine. He uses any means & especially loves to send people to this Board to make mockery. All the world may bow to satan; but Baptists, or those of like-mind, must stand firm. "Stand fast in the faith"...What is clearly stated in Scripture is to be believed and obeyed. My belief is grounded in the Word of God. I am Baptist by conviction, and my christian-walk is far from being dull!

I am truly sorry if I've appeared "unkind" to you, but the Lord has never led me astray & my roadmap has always been the Old Book, the KJBible.(Thought: Maybe it's 'truth' that seems "unkind"?)

When false teaching, discouragement or plain ol' persecution comes my way, I choose to stick with the Word of God(KJV), and I absolutely refuse to compromise my standards and convictions. The standard for determining the truth in religion must be the KJBible, rather than our experiences or those of others.

EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS. (Today, perhaps?)

 

AITB, the flaw in your "kindness" logic is that even well-known "evil" people prosper and flourish. They send money to charities that help kids, and make public appearances to help kids, and then the next day they're assisting organizations that support abortions, making public statements that definitely show their disdain for God, religion, and Christians, etc., etc.

These people can be as kind as they want--but they're not saved, and what they're showing is not a fruit of the spirit.

 

Then does that mean that only christians are kind(nice) to people? Or does it mean that any person who is kind is a christian? No, there is a difference, whether you can tell the difference yourself or not. I've seen many kind people who were not christians. Kindness is not a test to see who is christian and who is not.

[ July 02, 2002, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: katie ]

 

Dear Katie

You said,

"He chooses to act differently with man now then in N.T. days."

Why would you think this? How else would God build his church except upon Christ and the Holy Spirit? If the fruits of the Spirit exist today as they did in N.T.times why should not the gifts of the Holy Spirit be given to all who ask for them?

You said:
"In 1Corinthians, Paul addressed what was going on in the Corinthian church, he did not tell us in that book or anyother book he wrote, neither did any of the other apostles tell us to use the gifts or to speak in tongues. Why is that?"

Hear what the word of God says,

"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues..." (1 Cor 14:5

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you..." (1 Cor 14:18)

"Do ALL have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" (1 Cor 13:30)

"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14:39)

YOu said:

"God doesn't hold out on His children,if the gidts are for today then God is playing favorites with His children, and holding out on others."

Does not our Master tell us to (approx quotes) "seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened unto you" and "if a son asks his father for bread will his father give him a stone?"

Does God act in the same way today as He did in N.T. times? Ask and find out. He can act with you in the same way as He acted with Paul or with Peter or with anyone in N.T. times or He can act with you just the way you allow Him, but I believe the more we yeild to Him the more He will act with us as He did those in the early days.

 

Because they are two different things. Fruit of the Spirit is what we are to be now that we are christians. They continue to have a purspose as long as there are christians on the earth. And the bible does not tell us they are to end.The gifts had a purpose and fulfilled that purpose, we have God's written word to guide us. We do not needs signs to prove anything, as Jesus condemned the seeking of signs. No where does the bible tell us to ask for the gifts of the Spirit. Noone has ever given a single verse that says to ask for the gifts.

 

Oh, I didn't know you were missing that...here

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I'd say that 'desire them' is equivalent to 'ask God for them'...

 

You are adding to scripture. 'Ask God for them' is not in the bible. You said it was. If you have to add to the bible to make it say what you want it too, then thats the end of argument.

 

1Cor.12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Let's look at the verse in its context. Paul puts these gifts in order of importance in verse 28. First apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers; after that the other gifts follow until we come to the very last gift, the one of least importance, that of tongues. It is interesting how Charismatics put the least important as the most important gift. Paul said to covet earnestly the best gifts, which would be: "apostles, prophets, and teachers." He never said to covet tongues; he only rebuked those who spoke in tongues, or gave very stringent guidelines for when they did. He concludes this passage by saying I show you a more excellent way, a greater gift than all of the gifts of the spirit put together, and that is love.
DHK

 

Come on katie, how would it make sense that desire them doesn't mean 'ask God for them'?

Explain that to me.

If you desire something and it comes from God then why wouldn't you ask? Jesus said "Ask and you shall receive" not "just desire things and never ask God for them".

Don't you see why I said they are equivalent?

Well, I guess not

Anyway, have a happy 4th tomorrow

 

Look what he said in chapter 14 though:

1 Cor 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues

 

Originally posted by DHK:

God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. He spoke to Samuel in an audible voice. He spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. He spoke to Abraham in a vision. He spoke to Joseph in dreams. God spoke in different ways in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.
God has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.

Amen! Jesus also made the statement that He would never leave or forsake us, but send the comforter. The Holy Spirit speaks to us today.

Everything that we need to know about God is contained in the pages of the Bible. Before the New Testament was complete, there were certain gifts that were operational in the church. They were given to the first century church because they did not have the completed New Testament as you or I.

They did not have the New Testament....They had Jesus Himself, in person!

God is the same: yesterday, today, and forever. That is why He gave the gifts to those in the first century only. Because they did not have the Word of God, and we do; to make up the deficiency.

What deficiency?

You ought to appreciate the fact that you have a completed Word of God, and not look for revelation elsewhere. If you find revelation from any source other than the Word of God, I can assure you, it will not be of God.

Do you possess absolute knowledge? Does your pastor expound on the bible in his messages? That is not adding to the bible, it is explaining and teaching. Many pastors get their messages from God. We can have revelations from the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that God has put us into a position where He is silent?

DHK,
I do have respect for you. I do not believe for one minute that I could not learn from you. But to say that if I think I have a "revelation from God" that it is surely not through the Holy Spirit, I have to disagree. I do agree that it could be chaotic and out of order if christians just had "revelations" that did not coincide with what scripture says. I know All scripture is profitable for reproof, and correction. Bottom line is this...If we are truly the generation that is in the last days, and times are perilous, why would God leave us so defenseless in power? Why did Jesus tell us in the scriptures that times would get worse, yet, He would also take away the gifts of the Spirit? I do not read that in my KJV, or my NASB, or my, NIV, or any other version.

I leave you with the words spoken by Jesus Himself in John 16:13,14
Howbeit when he, The Spirit of truth, is come He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come.
14. He shall glorify me; for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

God Bless,
Happy 4th DHK
Naomi

 

I was just wondering what JESUS thinks about all this. Our main focus should be on Him.
And I dare say that ol' satan is just beside himself with glee over all this confusion.
After all, he is the author of it.

In Christ
Susan