Speaking in Tongues

There is more?
I'm sorry, Jesus is all I need. I don't need more, casue there is no more then Jesus. There is nothing in addition to Jesus. Jesus lives in us through the Holy Spirit, period, no more needed. If Jesus is not enough for you then I'm sorry for you.

 

Katie, I agree with you in that it bothers me when anyone implies 'there is more'.

What could be more than Jesus? Jesus isn't enough?

OTOH Paul said "I press forward" and "I run so as to win the prize" - there is a sense in which we always are being challenged by God to be more like Christ - and He is making us more that way.

But, it's not that we are missing things; it's that we need to be sanctified, we need our minds renewed, etc.

I believe that some of God's most precious saints never spoke a word in tongues.

 

Bye saying there is more, that does not mean there is more than Jesus. There is more that we could receive from Jesus. Speaking in tongues is an awesome experience. We should desire it! We should desire ALL that God has for us, not just SOME of what God has for us.

God Bless
Matt

 

From 1Corinthians 12:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

We need to be consistent in our theology. There are two lists of the gifts of the Spirit given in 1Cor.12. One list is given in verses 8-10, and the other in verses 28-30. It doesn't matter which list one uses, as long as you are consistent. The consistency must be in this: that either all the gifts are for today, or all the gifts are not for today. Either they have all ceased or they have not. Let's consider what some of these gifts are, and then we can each draw our own conclusions: From verses 8-10:

1. The gift of the word of wisdom. This was a gift. It was to be used for the church to be edified, as were all the gifts. None of the gifts were to be used in a selfish way. God would supernaturally give to some the word of wisdom--the ability to readily advise, or apply the knowledge of the Word practically. It was a supernatural gift of God, not to be confused with the wisdom that we can all ask of God (James 1:5), "who gives to all men liberally."

2. The gift of the word of knowledge. This also was a supernatural gift. It had to do with revelation. God gave revelatory knowledge to some because the Word of God was not yet complete. This was not something that simply agreed with the Word in existence. It was new revelation to the Word already in existence, or more accurately new revelation to the Word that they did not have in their possession. For example the Book of Romans may have been written by this time, but God would have given them the gift of the Word of knowledge because they would not have had any access to that book. However when all the books were complete with the Book of Revelation, these gifts ceased.

3. The gift of faith. We all have faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This again was a supernatural gift of faith. There were some men in the early church that were noted for their confidence and reliance in the promises of God. God had given them a special ability to do so.

4. The gift of healing. Would it not be wonderful to have the gift of healing? I have not seen any one in this age that has had the Biblical gift of healing. I have seen God answer prayer, and people have been healed. But I have never seen a "faith-healer" willing to take a challenge to come out of his own environment, come to a hospital, and walk up and down the corridors healing those who are really sick; or just spend time in the emergency room healing them. Every one of them, without exception, deny such an invitation. The reason? They are frauds. The gift has ceased. Why do many if not most faith healers wear glasses or contact lenses?? This would indeed be a wonderful gift to have, but I don't know of anyone who genuinely has it.

5. The gift of working of miracles. This also was a supernatural gift given especially to the apostles and some of their closer associates. The Bible records that Peter, Paul, and Philip performed miracles. It would be wonderful to be able to perform supernatural feats; to see miracles performed right before our eyes. The Bible says "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign." It says that the tongues was a "sign" for the unbeliever. Jesus said about the rich man in Hell, that if one should rise again from the dead they would not listen. They have Moses and the Prophets. If they would not listen to them, neither would they listen though one would come back from the dead. What was Christ saying? He is saying that the Word is more important than signs. If you are not going to believe the Word, neither will you believe if you see signs and wonders. The gift of miracles has ceased. It ceased when God's Word was completed. The miracles were used to authenticate the messenger of the gospel, the Apostles. They are no longer needed because we have the greatest miracle of all--God's Word.

6. The gift of prophecy. This is the same supernatural gift that is mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, where we are told that prophesy will fail. They will come to an end. This gift was given because the Word of God was not yet complete. God gave this revelatory gift also for the purpose of giving revelation, for the Word of God was not yet complete. There were different gifts given to different individuals. I do not see anyone who has the true prophetic gift today, not in the sense of having new revelation, or of being able to accurately predict the future 100% of the time, all the time.

7. The gift of discerning of spirits. A supernatural gift to quickly determine which spirit was of God, and which spirit was not of God. This would be very applicable in our modern day tongues movement. The person rightly exercising this gift would say of modern tongues that it is all of Satan, or all of the flesh, and none of it is of God. Since no one is exercising this gift in the Charismatic circles, we would conclude that the gifts have ceased.

8. The gift of tongues. The supernatural ability to speak in a language that they have never previously known or studied. But it is a real language. This would be a wonderful gift for missionaries especially. If tongues is truly Biblical why don't we see droves of missionaries go straight to the mission-field without studying the language. I have gone to the mission-field. It takes a lifetime in some cases to acquire properly a language. I have learned another language and become acquainted with yet another. Languages are not easy, especially when you have to know them well enough to speak them. One of the languages I am currently learning is Punjabi. I wish God would supernaturally give me the ability to speak it fluently. That would be the gift of tongues.

9. The gift of interpretation of tongues. This is what is missing in most Charismatic meetings-- interpretation of tongues. It is missing because the tongues that are spoken are not languages or true tongues. They can't be translated. The gifts have ceased.
If one is not for today, then all are not for today.
DHK

 

When I spoke in tongues it wasn't awesome to me...fwiw...

I'll tell you what's awesome to me...when God gives me the power to forgive people who've wronged me and will probably never even say sorry.

Because then I know He's changing me. In ways I want to be changed.

[ July 05, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

DHK,
You stated:
If you are not going to believe the Word, neither will you believe if you see signs and wonders.

I could not agree with you more!

Are you 100% certain that christians do not possess the gift of healing? Have you been in every hospital in the world? Are you certain that christians, who may never be recognized in the media are not at hospitals praying for people?
We all possess limited knowledge. We all see through a glass dimly. We are all right in our own eyes. I do not possess all knowledge. I do not claim to have all the answers. I do not understand why some are healed, and some are not. All I know is God is sovereign. He is God and I am not. All I know and put my full assurance in is Jesus and His Word. I believe Him when He said that we would have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us. If this is true, then only The Holy Spirit can work miracles through us. It is not us doing anything. We can only be a vessel. Why do we pray for one to be healed if there is no healings anymore? What would be the point? I believe God uses us to bring forth His will. Yet, it is not us, it is the Holy Spirit through us, living inside us. To make "money", or make a "living" off the gifts of the Spirit is wrong. I am opposed to that 100%. I am not a faith healer, yet, God has used me to pray for people and they have been healed. I know that it has nothing to do with me or my "spirituality". It is only God that heals. I understand where your coming from,I used to believe the same way. I will not ever compromise the Word of God. I am not adding anything to the scriptures at all. I am a Born-Again Believer in Jesus, and I will never back down from the position I hold that the Holy Spirit is alive and well. He can do anything If we are willing to be used. The people I deal with, you may never see. You may never know, this side of heaven, who I am. I assure you that I will never be on t.v. or on the 6:00 news promoting anything I do. So, I am not trying to make a name for myself, or anything like that. My motives are pure when I pray for the sick, or walk in a dark alley to rescue a small child. I know that some christians have given a bad name to the "gifts" of the Spirit, but we need them as much today, as the christians did in the New Testament. I need the gift odf discernment at times, so I don't act upon my own "worldly" wisdom. I need the gift of faith, when I am in a situation that I can only lean upon the Holy Spirits direction. We need to gift of Prophecy to operate in our churches to edify the body. The gifts are for us, as well as the church at large.
I prayed for a man who was dying from aids not long ago....He told me he was going blind. The following week, he was completely blind. He put his trust in Jesus few months before this. He listened to the Bible on cassette tape for hours a day. This man had such a revelation of who Jesus is, then alot of people I know who have been saved for years had. When he went blind, he told me he could no longer see....I replied, "My friend, you can see more then alot of people who still have their sight." This man died shortly after. He was never healed here on earth. I don't know why. I do know this...I am not going to stop believing that God can heal because of this incident.
A Pastor in Africa said that he does not understand why we americans give up so easily. He said they pray for the sick until they are healed. If they are not healed and they die, they pray for God to resurrect them. If they remain dead, they bury the person, then go on to the next home.
These people have seen many miracles. They know what God can do.
I have seen blind eyes opened before. I have seen the lame, walk.
I know that God is able!

If you disagree with me about the gifts being for today, I challenge you to fast and pray for a time, and ask God what is true. Only He can reveal truth to us by the Holy Spirit.
I use this challenge, because I myself did this years ago. I fasted and prayed for a month! A few months later I received my answer! (I also read the word during this time).

Thanks for your reply DHK. God Bless you!
Naomi

 

You are correct, Jesus is enough. He is all we need! Nothing more.
Naomi

 

Very well put Matticus
Naomi

 

Naomi,

I don't think anyone here is questioning whether God can heal; it's more a matter of whether He gives some people some sort of gift so that they can routinely heal (by His power but - I guess it works consistently? I don't exactly know how the theology goes); and whether he promised physical healing as part of the atonement or only forgiveness for our sins.

I don't like it when theologies that teach physical healing is promised put the blame for not being healed on the individual e.g. that person 'lacked faith'. Well, who can judge that except God? And I've known people who were dying who had incredible faith. So this certainly isn't borne out in my experience And worse - that seems really hurtful and unfair, to assume that it's the sick person's fault.

Another problem with those theologies is that God is no longer sovereign if He can't say "No, for purposes of my own I am not going to heal this individual".

Anyway anyone who claims a gift of healing ought to be out there emptying out some hospitals - and it would make the national news...so I have to wonder, if they really have it, why haven't I heard about them yet on the news?

 

I don't think anyone here is questioning whether God can heal; it's more a matter of whether He gives some people some sort of gift so that they can routinely heal (by His power but - I guess it works consistently? I don't exactly know how the theology goes); and whether he promised physical healing as part of the atonement or only forgiveness for our sins.

I don't like it when theologies that teach physical healing is promised put the blame for not being healed on the individual e.g. that person 'lacked faith'. Well, who can judge that except God? And I've known people who were dying who had incredible faith. So this certainly isn't borne out in my experience And worse - that seems really hurtful and unfair, to assume that it's the sick person's fault.

I agree. I think it is terrible when people say it has anything to do with our faith, or our lack of faith. If this is true, how would they explain people who are not christians that get healed?

Anyway anyone who claims a gift of healing ought to be out there emptying out some hospitals - and it would make the national news...so I have to wonder, if they really have it, why haven't I heard about them yet on the news?

I don't think the media would air anything that would focus on christians that are doing good. It is more likely that they would air anything bad that christians would do. I think it is the same thing as unsaved family members who watch how we live our life. If we do one thing wrong...They comment on how they thought we were "christians". All the good stuff we do is not commented on. Some people just wait until you mess-up somewhere so they can say, "AHA! I knew it was all a lie!"
When our light shines before men, Either they run from it or they run to it.

I hear what your saying though. It's the same concept as why Evangelists go from church to church, Does the church need salvation? Why do all the faith-healers stay in the church? The ones who are real do not claim they are the ones doing anything, they give the Glory to God alone.
The ones who are making a profit on it, well, God will be the Judge. I am no faith-healer, but I do have the Holy Spirit living inside, and I have been able to pray for people who have been healed.
I am nobody special, I mean God did use a donkey, did He not! Thanks for your reply. I am confused also by some of the theology. I guess when your in the midst of very dark places, and demonic activity, all your theological knowledge seems to go out the window, and you rely upon The Holy Spirit inside of you to do the rest! LOL!
I think the difference in theology is summed up by this question, Why would the Holy Spirit have to indwell us, if God does not use us to fulfill His will? The Holy Spirit would just come upon us from time to time, would He not? But if He is alive inside of us, wouldn't it stand to reason that He would do something through us? This is what I am reading in the scriptures. The difference comes in, when we are just reading about what happened, as opposed to reading plus experiencing what happened. Knowledge versus Experience. We need both. Jesus told us we need both. God Bless! Naomi

 

I truly believe in healing & that God can heal(Ex.15:26KJV-"for I am the LORD that healeth thee"); but I do not believe in healers.

 

Then those hospitals should be emptying out real quick. But I have yet to see one healer go to a hospital and heal someone, so that they then walked out without the need for further medical assistance. A proven illness cured with no medical help. Let one of those with the gift of healing go out and start healing. After all if you want to be like Jesus, He went out in the crowds in public. He went where the sick people were.
I am not say God does not heal, but He doesn't do it on command.

 

Then those hospitals should be emptying out real quick. But I have yet to see one healer go to a hospital and heal someone, so that they then walked out without the need for further medical assistance. A proven illness cured with no medical help. Let one of those with the gift of healing go out and start healing. After all if you want to be like Jesus, He went out in the crowds in public. He went where the sick people were.
I am not say God does not heal, but He doesn't do it on command.</font>[/QUOTE]Amen! I agree It is actually the other way around. God does not heal on anyones command. He does the healing, we do the praying. When we go out and pray for the sick, we are just doing as the bible tells us to do. Who God heals is up to Him. It is not our faith, it is not our words, it is only by His Spirit. God is able to heal, we are all in agreement here. So...IF He is able to heal, why are all not healed? Perhaps, that is why all are not walking out of hospitals. We are commanded to spread the gospel, but all are not saved..is it because of us? because of God?
We need to take heed to what the bible tells us to do. The rest is up to God. I share my faith with many people. I am called to be a witness. I am not called to save. God saves, not me. I am called to pray for the sick. Not heal. God heals. See, it is God that does the miracle of saving and healing. If I pray for someone, and they are healed, I have operated in the gift of healing, because of the Holy Spirit who dwells within me. It is God alone who gets the Glory! I am a mere vessel. As all christians are. It is no longer I that live but Him that lives through me. If we are Born-Again it is our spirit that has come alive.

Are people totally opposed to the gifts operating today mainly due by what you have seen with "Faith-Healers?" Do you really think that God cannot use us to bring forth His will?
( Just wondering )
Naomi

 

DHK,
I see that we are in agreement for the most part . I am not certain we even disagree here! I mean, you said, we are to pray for people to be healed, and we know it is God who does the healing, so therefore, there must be a gift of healing, through the power of the Holy Spirit. I am not referring to faith-healers, I am referring to people who pray for other's and they are healed.
I understand there has been alot of phoneys getting rich from the staged acts.
How do you reconcile the many people who have actually been prayed for at revival meetings and have actually been miraculously healed? Especially in other countries. They were never "documented", because frankly, it is not a "show" it is reality. I have seen with my own eyes, people being healed. I think it is the method used that we are disagreeing with. *I
think* but, we seem to agree upon the fact, that God does the healing, and He also uses us to pray.I call it a gift. Faith healer's would see it as God healing "on demand" or your faith is weak....I see it as, we are told to pray, and God is either going to heal, or not heal. It is God who is doing it. In His time also.

How do you reconcile this statement you made:

God heals. I have prayed for people to be healed, and have seen God's hand at work, and have seen people get healed.

With this statement:

I do not have the gift spoken of in That was a supernatural gift that was given only to a few, that has now ceased.

How has it ceased, if you just operated in it?
What do you see as the difference?

You are well read in the word, and have alot of insight DHK. I enjoy the fellowship I have with you here. I hope this does not cause disunity between us. I mean, either way, we do serve the same God.
God Bless!
Naomi

 

So if we are all commanded to pray for the sick, then do we all have the gift of healing? Praying for someone is not the same as the gift of healing. Anyone can see that from scripture, from those who did have the gift of healing. The apostles and Jesus just went out and healed, right on the street. Not healed from a cold, but from real diseases. If all you ahve to do is pray for someone, then whens the last time you prayed for a blind person and they regained sight? Or a severly crippled person suddenly becasme straight and was able to walk right the rest of their life.
Just becasue God continues to heal does not mean anyone has the gift of healing. Look at scriprure and see if anyone does like Jesus and the apostles. I don't recall any praying for healing in the bible from those who had the gift of healing.

[ July 06, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: katie ]

 

Ouch!

I'll be interested to see our Pentecostal friends answer that one...although, I suspect I already know how they'll answer....

 

Originally posted by katie:
So if we are all commanded to pray for the sick, then do we all have the gift of healing?

If God healed them when you prayed, I guess you operated in that gift.

Praying for someone is not the same as the gift of healing. Anyone can see that from scripture, from those who did have the gift of healing.

I agree. It is only God that can heal, not us.

The apostles and Jesus just went out and healed, right on the street. Not healed from a cold, but from real diseases. If all you ahve to do is pray for someone, then whens the last time you prayed for a blind person and they regained sight? Or a severly crippled person suddenly becasme straight and was able to walk right the rest of their life.

I have not. I have witnessed someone pray for the blind and they were healed.

Just becasue God continues to heal does not mean anyone has the gift of healing. Look at scriprure and see if anyone does like Jesus and the apostles. I don't recall any praying for healing in the bible from those who had the gift of healing.

I believe we possess all the gifts. Only because the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. It is only God that heals. The question is, can He use us to bring forth His will? I realize He does not have to use us, He could do it without us. Yet, does He use us?

 

Does one have to be Pentecostal to believe in the gifts?
Naomi

 

No cause for disunity Naomi. I have enjoyed posting here, and the spirit of those that have been posting. I think that we have more in agreement than disagreement.

I still believe the gifts have ceased because they were special supernatural gifts given for a special purpose at a special time in history. That time has come and gone. But God's power certainly hasn't. Even in the Great Commission he said (Mat.28:18-20) "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go, and teach all nations...and lo I am with you alway to the end of the world, Amen." Paul commands us to be filled with His Spirit. When the disciples were filled with His Spirit in Acts 4:31, "they spake the Word with boldness," and that is what Christ expects us to do as well. That is why he says he will be with us always.

Being on the mission field we have seen God answer prayer, time and again, in ways that were almost either entirely unexpected or seemingly unbelievable. He has answered prayer in respect to health and healing, in respect to His provision for us, and His protection for us, and in many ways.
Jer.33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
God answers prayer, and he heals in answer to prayer. But it is not always his will to heal. It was not always his will to heal even in Bible times. Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. He told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake. He said that his co-laborer in Christ, Epaphroditus, was sick, even nigh unto death. Paul himself had a thorn in the flesh, an infirmity for which he sought the Lord for three times. The Lord answered, "My grace is sufficient for thee." Paul therefore took glory in his infirmities and weaknesses. The modern day faith-healer says that all should be healed, and if you are not, it is because you have lacked in your faith. There is a Pentecostal preacher (or two) that have radio programs (local preachers) that preach this way weekly.
It is not God's will to heal all the time. He heals according to his will. Part of the key to God's purpose in suffering is found in the book of Job. God has a purpose for everyone, whether healed or not.
DHK

[ July 07, 2002, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]