Speaking in Tongues

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
Then quit harping on them. Leave them out of your thinking. Don't let them bother you anymore. And simply answer all the Biblical arguments presented.
DHK

How about substantiating these stories!

You have an aversion to the Bible atestring?
Why?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Bro. Lewis]

Let me make an off the wall attempt at rightly dividing the word of truth. Before creation, God spake. The trinity probably spoke amongst themselves, God spoke with the angels, and angels with angels. What language did they and still do they speak? Hebrew? I doubt it. What language did adam speak? And was that language abolished at the tower of Babel? When God spake to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issaac, etc., etc.,those men understood God in there own language but that doesn't mean God was speaking their language, He was speaking in His language and man understood it in man's language. When the donkey spake to his rider, what language did he speak? Probably his own, but he was understood by man. Dare I say he spake in tongues? I lean toward the idea that the "gift of tongues" or "speaking in tongues" is God's heavenly language understood by earthly ears. There are passages which tell us that when certain men were filled with the Spirit they also spake in tongues but no verse says that all who are filled with the Spirit will speak in tongues. This is a particular gift given only to those to whom God Chooses to give it. Whenever one speaks in tongues it is to help or edify someoneelse. If noone understands you, than it is not of God. I believe that the soul purpose of a saved person speaking in tongues is for the un saved to understand the gospel. I know some if not all that I wrote flys in the face of alot of people's doctrine but none of what people were teaching me seemed right. the pentacostals and charismatics make more of it than is really there and others like some Baptists seem to try to avoid the issue all together. I had to study it for myself and so far these are my conclusions. God bless you all!!!

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
Then quit harping on them. Leave them out of your thinking. Don't let them bother you anymore. And simply answer all the Biblical arguments presented.
DHK

How about substantiating these stories!

You have an aversion to the Bible atestring?
Why?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. </font>[/QUOTE]I have an aversion to ridiculous stories like the Vancouver Greek scholar and the Chineese Laundryman.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Another "tongues" thread! We can't have enough of those can we?

I predict that the follwing will happen:

1) By page two it turn into DHK and Dr. Bob vs MEE, Tamborine Lady, and Co.

2) A fight over the definiton of "perfect".

3) At least one person will refer to the current tongues movement as "demonic"

4) Someone will insult Dr. Bob.

5) A warning will be issued.

6) DHK will post a well reasoned and Biblically solid argument that will be posted at least eight times.

6) No one will refute DHK's argument, at least one that will satisfy DHK.

7) And after this thread dies down, in three weeks someone else will open up an new tongues thread.

You are basically right.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Music4Him Jan.12, ... as I understand it tounges won't cease until the 2nd Comming."

As I see it tongues will cease the moment "the Perfect One" - Jesus Christ - has "come" into one's life and heart and being - 1Cor.13:10. Then he won't need tongues or the gifts of tongues any more. "Love rejoiceth NOT in iniquity" - which is our own availing or our own perfection. But "Love rejoiceth in The Truth" - which is Jesus Christ - not our 'gift of tongues'.

 

[tamborine lady]

This is what I think about this or any other discussion on tongues and the interpretation thereof.

I you have not had the experience, you are not qualified to comment on it or teach on it.

It's like ice skating. Until you master the skates and really get out there and glide across the ice, you cannot explain the experience completely to anyone else.

Then after you learn, only the people that have also learned how to ice skate are the only ones who will understand the wonderfullness of the experience when you explain it to them.

If you are basing your understanding of tongues on what you see TV preachers do or say, you know nothing.

If you are basing your opinion on what you THINK the scripture says you are still not qualified, because you are only going by your interpretation of what it says.

Only people who truly have the gift can explain it, and then only others that have it will truly understand.

I know these discussions will go on until the day that Jesus returns, and then you will see what it's all about.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

This is what I think about this or any other discussion on tongues and the interpretation thereof.

I you have not had the experience, you are not qualified to comment on it or teach on it.

That is not true, even to your own standards. On another thread you testified how you cornered a UP pastor and asked point blank if tongues were necessary for salvation (paraphrasing)? You got your answer from observing another's experience, and combining it with your own theology.

It's like ice skating. Until you master the skates and really get out there and glide across the ice, you cannot explain the experience completely to anyone else.

Perhaps more like baseball. I can watch it on TV, understand the rules, enjoy the game, even be a professional concerning statistics of all the teams, rules, etc., and yet never have played the game.
Better yet, I can read up in an encyclopedia all about jousting, such as the knights used to do. I can fully understand it. I can also understand it even though it is not played today. It, like tongues, has ceased.
DHK

Then after you learn, only the people that have also learned how to ice skate are the only ones who will understand the wonderfullness of the experience when you explain it to them.

And do you have to stick your head in a garbage pail to find out the knowledge that it stinks. Does everything depend on your experience. Does your experience become your authority. You have substituted your experience as your authority, instead of having the Word of God for your authority. Your authority has changed. You might as well have the Koran as your authority if your sink to the depths of experience as authority.

If you are basing your understanding of tongues on what you see TV preachers do or say, you know nothing.

Why not? Their authority is the same as yours.

If you are basing your opinion on what you THINK the scripture says you are still not qualified, because you are only going by your interpretation of what it says.

Only part of your answer is right; the other part is heresy. Your right in that my opinion means nothing. If I based truth on opinion I would be no better than a Hindu philosopher. However my truth is based on Scripture, and if yours isn't you have fallen into heresy.

Only people who truly have the gift can explain it, and then only others that have it will truly understand.

So your reasoning is that Mother Theresa had no business working in Leper Colonies because she herself never had leprosy, and therefore could not fully understand the disease. No doctor should ever try to treat a leper unless he or she has had the disease. Right? Again your authority is experience, not the Word of God.

I know these discussions will go on until the day that Jesus returns, and then you will see what it's all about.

Working for Jesus,
Tam

We can see what it is all about when we study the Scriptures say. As Jesus said:
"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God."
Experience means nothing. I don't run my life, nor my theology by my experience/s. Rather, my life is based on the Word of God. His book is a guidebook for my life. I had better iive by it.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK,
I do not see how you get your ideas on this from the word of God at all. In fact, I challenged you repeatedly to prove your points from scripture and you never bothered to respond to many of these challenges in the previous thread.

For example, you take a verse that says tongues are for a sign, in a context about tongues being a sign to unbelievers, and argue that tongues ceased in 70 AD, and was only for first century Jews. Yet you offered no scriptural evidence that the tongues as a sign verses had anything to do with the destruction of the temple, the attack on Jerusalem, or tongues ceasing. You quoted the verses and then made assertions not supported by them, that tongues was only for the Jews in the first century.

I challenge you again to show FROM SCRIPTURE that the Isaiah passage or the I Corinthians 14 passage we discussed has anything to do with tongues ceasing or the temple being destroyed. Quoting the verses and then asserting things the verses do not say as commentary does not qualify as proof.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:
DHK,
I do not see how you get your ideas on this from the word of God at all. In fact, I challenged you repeatedly to prove your points from scripture and you never bothered to respond to many of these challenges in the previous thread.

For example, you take a verse that says tongues are for a sign, in a context about tongues being a sign to unbelievers, and argue that tongues ceased in 70 AD, and was only for first century Jews. Yet you offered no scriptural evidence that the tongues as a sign verses had anything to do with the destruction of the temple, the attack on Jerusalem, or tongues ceasing. You quoted the verses and then made assertions not supported by them, that tongues was only for the Jews in the first century.

I challenge you again to show FROM SCRIPTURE that the Isaiah passage or the I Corinthians 14 passage we discussed has anything to do with tongues ceasing or the temple being destroyed. Quoting the verses and then asserting things the verses do not say as commentary does not qualify as proof.

I gave you a thorough answer in the thread: "What do you think the word "perfect" means in 1Cor.13:10"
You may read it there. I think it is on page two.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

DHK, you said: If I based truth on opinion I would be no better than a Hindu philosopher. However my truth is based on Scripture, and if yours isn't you have fallen into heresy.

Tam says:

It almost sounds like you want to start calling names again. I'd be careful, as that is not allowed as you once told me.

You also said: We can see what it is all about when we study the Scriptures say. As Jesus said:
"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God."
Experience means nothing. I don't run my life, nor my theology by my experience/s. Rather, my life is based on the Word of God. His book is a guidebook for my life. I had better iive by it.

Tam says:

That is a very sad statement IMO. It sounds like there is no fun in your life, no zest.

By the way, tell me what you find so exciting about believing that there are no more gifts of the spirit, no more miracles, (except maybe a tiny one ever once in awhile)

That sounds like the only thing you have to look forward to is heaven, which of course is the goal of us all!! But do you enjoy being a christian? Is it exciting to you! Do YOU know the power of God??

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:


That is a very sad statement IMO. It sounds like there is no fun in your life, no zest.
Tam

Is that what you do? Live for self? for fun? for amusement? Is that the goal of your life--amusement and zest?

Am I a soldier of the cross,
A follower of the Lamb,
And shall I fear to own His cause,
Or blush to speak His Name?

Must I be carried to the skies
On flowery beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize,
And sailed through bloody seas?

Are there no foes for me to face?
Must I not stem the flood?
Is this vile world a friend to grace,
To help me on to God?

Sure I must fight if I would reign;
Increase my courage, Lord.
I’ll bear the toil, endure the pain,
Supported by Thy Word.

Thy saints in all this glorious war
Shall conquer, though they die;
They see the triumph from afar,
By faith’s discerning eye

When that illustrious day shall rise,
And all Thy armies shine
In robes of victory through skies,
The glory shall be Thine.

Mark 8:34-38 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Fun? Amusement? Is that what the Christian life is to you?
DHK

 

[MEE]

Hey Link, you should write a book and call it, "Another Trip to the Woodshed." ..that is for all non-believers.

MEE

 

[tamborine lady]

Bless your heart DHK, you seem so bitter! No, I live for Jesus, but to me it is fun! It gives me great pleasure to serve Him! My life is full of joy, because I belong to Him.

There are soooo many good things in the christian life. I just can't go about being sad and serious all the time.

And I don't serve God and do what His word says because I have to, I do it because I love Him and I WANT to!!

There's a big difference.

Anyway, DHK, sorry to hear about your cold, sad life. You probably need to go have a big old bowl of ice cream, and figure out how to be happy in Jesus!

Peace,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

Mark 16:15-18~
15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Wow! Now this is exciting and Jesus said it to those who believe! If one of those promises from Jesus are working today then shouldn't all of em' be working in us?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to be a sad person... and trouble followed at my heels.
Until I met my Savior... and put my heart into His will.

My journey is much happier now... knowing Jesus has my back.
Even if I have nothing ...there is nothing that I lack.

He sends His ministering spirits, and He careth for my needs.
And if I truely want a happy harvest...I had better plant happy seeds.

As long as I can tell the story...I'll shout it once again.
Since I came to know Jesus... I'm happier than I've ever been.

by: Music4Him
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(DHK, did you write your poem too?)

 

[tamborine lady]

DHK, You made comment on a lot of my statements but I noticed that you neglected to answer this one:By the way, tell me what you find so exciting about believing that there are no more gifts of the spirit, no more miracles, (except maybe a tiny one ever once in awhile)

Why??

And also this one:Do YOU know the power of God??

Why no comment?

And I am wondering about something else. I know you said somewhere that you had been studying the bible for 35 years, so I know you are familier with all the scriptures. But does this ever happen to you?

You are reading along in your daily devotionals, something that you've read hundreds of times before, and suddenly a light goes on and you see something new, a truth that you had never seen before while reading that particular scripture?

Just wondering,


Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK, You made comment on a lot of my statements but I noticed that you neglected to answer this one: By the way, tell me what you find so exciting about believing that there are no more gifts of the spirit, no more miracles, (except maybe a tiny one ever once in awhile)
Why??

non sequitor.
That is like me asking you: What do you find so exciting about taking LSD or cocaine every day. Is that what you do with your life?
I believe the Bible. The Bible teaches that the spiritual gifts are not for today, just as it teaches against the use of LSD and cocaine. Both give you experiences don't they? You run your life on experience rather than the Word of God. Both types of experiences are unscriptural. You might be able to see why one might be fun and exciting to some, and yet still unscriptural. Yet you are blind to the truth of Scripture why the other is (according to you) fun and exciting, and yet still unscriptural. You will answer to God on both accounts.

The Christian life is a very exciting life, if one is willing to pay the sacrifice for it. But it is not shallow and amusing. Most Christians want a shallow Christian life filled with the shallowness of CCM, and its shallow lyrics, its worldly music; the tangible experience of tongues, rather than the reliability of the Word of God; emotion, not the settled peace that only God gives; a self-centered life that revolves around the world, rather that a Christ-centerd life that revolves around Christ and his word.

I experience the kind of excitement that you will never experience. I am a missionary. I have been all around this world, literally. I have lived in third world nations. I have faced undescribable situations and dangers. I have seen the might and power of God answering prayer, and his hand of protection in unbelievable ways, such as you will never see. You are stuck in your little corner of your world, always with a steady income, always having a roof over your head, always having the basic amenities of life, not knowing what it is to do without--like the survivors of that Tusnami. What do you know about living by faith. I would venture to say--nothing! When you have everything, you don't need anything, you don't need to live by faith. That is the situation for most people in western nations. Quite frankly I doubt if you know how to live the Christian life, as Christ meant it to be lived.

And also this one: Do YOU know the power of God??
Why no comment?

More than you will ever know. I preach with the power of God on my life every Sunday. A man recently out of jail came to Christ last Sunday. I gave evidence just above of the power of God. I don't believe you know what the power of God is. You rely on experience--fleshly experiences, experiences that are not of God--tongues that are a psychological experience (possibly even demonic). It only started in the beginning of the 20th century. That fact alone shows you that it is not of God. You can speak a bunch of gibberish, but neither you or anyone else know if you are praising God or Satan. You don't know what you are saying. So the possibility of praising Satan remains. Your experiences are of the flesh. They are pure amusement.

And I am wondering about something else. I know you said somewhere that you had been studying the bible for 35 years, so I know you are familier with all the scriptures. But does this ever happen to you?

You are reading along in your daily devotionals, something that you've read hundreds of times before, and suddenly a light goes on and you see something new, a truth that you had never seen before while reading that particular scripture?

Yes, many times. That is called illumination. The Holy Spirit illuminates our minds as to the truth of the Word of God. But be aware that it is the Spirit of God and not emotion or a false Spirit, for He will never lead contrarty to what the Scripture says elsewhere.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

All hail DHK!!!

I have depended all my life on God. If I told you some of my experiences~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ but then you wouldn't believe them.

But you go on thinking that you are right and everyone else is wrong!

You know what, it doesn't bother me. I only care what Jesus thinks.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Walguy]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

This is what I think about this or any other discussion on tongues and the interpretation thereof.

I you have not had the experience, you are not qualified to comment on it or teach on it.

It's like ice skating. Until you master the skates and really get out there and glide across the ice, you cannot explain the experience completely to anyone else.

Then after you learn, only the people that have also learned how to ice skate are the only ones who will understand the wonderfullness of the experience when you explain it to them.

If you are basing your understanding of tongues on what you see TV preachers do or say, you know nothing.

If you are basing your opinion on what you THINK the scripture says you are still not qualified, because you are only going by your interpretation of what it says.

Only people who truly have the gift can explain it, and then only others that have it will truly understand.

I know these discussions will go on until the day that Jesus returns, and then you will see what it's all about.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

This entire line of thinking is merely a technique used to attempt to change the subject. It is one frequently employed by people who cannot support their arguments intellectually to convince themselves of the legitimacy of what they have already decided they want to believe, and to try to discredit those who oppose them.
The issue with modern tongues is whether this is something truly of God, or just a psychological phenomenon (or something worse). To say that one is not qualified to have an opinion on the subject unless they have had the experience completely avoids the question of whether the experience itself is legitimate. That's why this argument is so appealing to 'tongues' speakers: it enables them to tell themselves that their critics have no right to question them, so they can just ignore all the carefully researched Scripture analyses that people like me and DHK give them, and not have to substantively answer the difficult questions we raise.
Yes, someone who has had the experience of ice skating understands it better than someone who has not. But in that case there is no question among either skaters or non-skaters about whether what is called ice skating is really ice skating. So the entire premise of your illustration is not applicable to the tongues question. It's apples and oranges.
Finally, many people who HAVE had the experience of modern 'tongues' have subsequently decided that what they were doing was not of God. Do their opinions count to you? Or is it only those who have experienced tongues AND CONTINUE TO ACCEPT THEM who are qualified to have an opinion in your view?

 

[stevec]

This is something I posted on another MB about a year ago but it fits this topic:

I came to Jesus in a penticostal church. Even as a baby Christian, the whole charismatic thing seemed...well...off. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit could not move someone to speak in tongues if He wanted to, but to hear someone go, "Blabble lab-a dab! Hrumfle geegelmon. Sham-a-lam-a-ding-dong," did not seem right to me, even then. Some people want an external (earthly) sign so badly they will convince themselves this nonsense is really of the Spirit. Where is "slaying in the Spirit" in the Bible? How about "holy laughter"? I've known people to be miraculously cured, but never in a auditorium full of people with a man in a cheap suit and a bad toupe smacking them in the forehead. If you want a sign from God, bury yourself in the Word, not in a bunch of mass-hysteria hocus-pocus.

 

[music4Him]

I was a 95 lbs. and a 16 year old girl that went to a United Pentacostal Church. I went to the front to pray one night for a burden I had (at 16 who knows what it was?) well I asked a friend next to me if he would pray with me.......the next thing in that senerio was the preacher and 3 maybe 4 Pentacostal women (we are talking Healthy ones too! no match for a 95 lb teen) all praying over me to recive tongues. Even though my parents were Baptist, I had been around tongues (as I recall I had never been afriad of them) so I wasn't afraid that night.... Except if I didn't get home at a decent hour I might of been afraid of my parents and what they'd do to the north end of my back 40. Well the clock was a ticking, I was flat on my back with well meaning people (I'm sure) praying...so my thought and prayer was like... well I did it now and they arn't gonna let me up so please do something The next thing I knew He did and I got it. As I recall I wasn't exstatic with some experiance. It was more like a "Wow" thing or like I was in awe maybe, like this is comming out of my mouth? Now for the next several years I would go from Baptist to Pentacostal trying to figure it out if it was really real and it always came back to the gift because it was there. But I do not go to United Pentacostal anymore because it seems they dominate people with bondage type of doctrine. But after I learned more in Word and matured more something happened in 99' that had changed me even more (brought me up another level in my Christian walk) And now I can visit any church... Methodist, Baptist and Full Gospel (I have been going to FG mostly within the last year and 1/2) and so far I don't feel out of place in any of them. So I guess it just depends on what church your at as to what experiance you go away with as far as the gift of tongues go? Although my first "hands on" encounter was not what I expected....I now have no doubts. I will admit that when ever I watch tv, some of the people on TBN can give me a strange feeling in the pit of my stomach and seem off also like [/b]stevec[/b] and I usually turn the channel, while maybe some on Daystar I have no problem with.
BTW, This testimony in no way qualifies me to speak on the subject, but although in my situation that I was in at the time when I recived it, I was not scared away from it. (although most people probley would have) I guess it just depends on the person and the church?