Speaking in tongues

[Don]

Still waiting for an answer to my question.

Also, Oneness, you said: "just like Jesus said in John 3 there would be a sound that would be acompanied with the Baptisim of the Spirit." Sorry, but I can find nothing in John 3 to back this up. Could you please provide the appropriate verse(s)? Thanks.

And finally, I don't pray to Mary or rub beads, and neither does Lorelei, or DHK, or any of the others who disagree with you; on behalf of all of us, please stop insinuating that we're catholics.

Or I might have to get nasty myself, and talk about how the Oneness Pentecostals offer up their babies to Baal.

See? That statement had no more truth to it than you insinuating that we're praying to Mary. Remember, six things the Lord doth hate; yea, even seven are an abomination; and "bearing false witness" and "a lying tongue" are two of them....

Just keep it to the subject at hand, Oneness. And please, either you or MEE, answer my question (before I die of old age, preferably).

 

[ONENESS]

John 3:8 he is comparing the sound or wind to the birth of the spirit. He said that you do not no when it comes or where it goes but you hear the sound of it, and so is everyone that is born with the spirit.

What is your question. I am pretty sure that i answered them the best that I know.

 

[Lorelei]

As Don said, and I repeat yet again..I am NOT Catholic. I don't have nor want any beads, I don't pray to Saints or any of those things so please...move on to something else.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:


No where does it say that it is the evidence. you just know that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo! It doesn't say it anywhere! Yeah, that is what my brother-in-law told me. I can't show you ...you just "know". You are trying to tell me that your "knowledge" takes presedence over what the Word of God clearly states. No where does the Word of God differentiate between the "gift" of tongues and the "evidence", and you admit this.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

You can read all over the book of acts and it will say "the recived the holy Ghost just like we did" etc. They all spoke in tongues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read the book of Acts about 20 times just this year alone and as I mentioned before "These scriptures also speak of conversions but never says they spoke in tongues. Acts 2:38-47, 4:1-4, 16:13-15, 16:31-34".

Just like "they" did was NOT in some mystical gibberish. THEY spoke in a known language.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you speak in a specific language?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

Tell me this. How do you know that you have the Holy Ghost?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God's promise. Salvation comes from believing. I believe, not merely a mouth confession, but true belief from the heart. God said if you do this you are saved.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since we can not call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit (1 Corin. 12:3), then we must have the Spirit upon becoming saved. There is no salvation apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for we are justified by the Spirit (1 Corin. 6:11). Once we believe and receive our salvation, that gift of God, that promise from the Lord is sealed with the Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14) until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).

I received salvation upon believing and putting my faith in trust in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. At that moment I received the Holy Ghost and there is no more evidence that I need. I trust my Lord to keep His promise, I don't need some physical evidence to appease any doubt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Mee it may take a little bit of prayer and fasting but I think God will show them the truth. "SOme things come not but by prayer and fasting"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with this statement is that prayer and fasting to the Lord will not and should not ever make you believe something that is contradictory to the Word of God. It was through prayer AND the study of God's Word that I have learned the truth.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing need be added to the Word of God and nothing needs to be "implied" from it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


As for John 3:8, you are reaching. I don't see how this means you hear it by speaking in tongues. If you want to read John, why not read
John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
Or
John 7:39
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"?

These verses explain why the baptism of the Holy Spirit came to the Apostles at a different time then their belief. You say you received the Baptism just like they did, does that mean you were alive at the time of the first dispensation of the Spirit?


~Lorelei

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[ONENESS]

Ok I respect your beliefs. I understand that there is going to be alot of diffrent views on what something means and what happens. I have mine and you have yours. I stand firmly on what The word of GOD tells me. Now it tells you soemthing else.

you can look in the epistiels for salvation but that is not where you will find it. The Epistiles were written to churches that were already saved. Why tell a saved person how to get saved again. They were merely giving the instruction and ecourgment in living for Christ.

The book of Acts is where salvation is. Peter had the athority and that the bottom line. Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation.

I am sorry we disagree on the tongues issue. I read that the bible states that it is for us, and you dont. Not matter what I show you in the word of God will not change your mind. And likewise for me. I showed you where paul said "I would that ye all speak in tongues" I showed you where it said that the promise is unto you and to everyone" I showed you that unknown tongus is for us today. But you think it as already ceased. I showed you that you speak mysteries in the Spirit, and you have a problem with that. I showed you that paul wishes everyone would speak in tongues, but you have a problem with that. And i know htat you have showed me alot of stuff, but we both come up with two diffrent assumptions. The only thing I have to support what I believe is my interpratation of the Word of God and the experience that i have that is parellel with the book of Acts. The only thing that you have is your interpratation of the Word of God that is parellel with what you want to believe.

Alot of what you say makes since and alot of what I say makes since. But we have our diffrences. I am not saying that your wrong, I am jsut saying that I will stick to what I believe.

And to end. Lets study John 3:8 out. Lets read it some more and see what we can find. I dont think it is right to ignore it. I want to hear what you have to say about it.

Here it is

8. The wind bloweth * where it listeth * , and thou hearest * the sound thereof, but canst * not tell * whence it cometh * , and whither it goeth * : so is * every one that is born * of the Spirit.

The wind blows where it desires and you hear the sound of it. But you dont know where it comes from and where it goes to. So is everyone that is born of the spirit.

So we could say. The Spirit blows where it desires and you hear the sound of it. But you dont know where it comes from and where it goes. So is it when the wind blows.

 

[Don]

Oneness, for about the fifth time, here's my question (quoted from page 4 of this thread):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MEE, I had that light switch on--BIG TIME. But I have never spoken in tongues.
I read the parables, and I have no problem allowing God to work through me to understand them.

I see something new in the Scriptures every time I read them; I know this is God working through me to increase my understanding of His word.

But I've never spoken in tongues. How do you feel about that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To add to this, I've seen the Holy Spirit work on others through me; I know that even through some of my smallest actions, the Spirit has worked miracles both in my life and in the lives of others.

But I've never spoken in tongues.

How do you feel about that?

 

[ONENESS]

Don is It my place to say that you dont have the Spirit of God? No its not. I just simply shared with you what I believe. Now what you gather from that is up to you.

As Far as your question. I dont really know how to answer it without getting you offended. Look I am very careful to say what is God and what is not God. I had very bad experience with this a little over a year ago. I was not sure if God was speaking to me and I got scared and rebuked it and thought I blasphemed the Holy Ghost. ANd then all sorts of wondering about what I said went on through my mind. And I have not fully recovered from it yet.

BUt if I may say is this. Did God use you? Probably. Is it my place to say that he did not? No. But sir, God used a donkey, a burning bush, and alot of other stuff for that matter. Did thosse things speak in tongues? No they did not.

Now dont take this as me saying that you are not a child of God. But God can work through an athiest if he allows him to.

All you have to do to be used is make your self available.

Here is where I am coming from on alot of things. I posted this on antoher board a while back. But it has a really good point. I wrote it so it may not be that good to you guys but it is a nugget to me. lOL.

How does God work? God always allows us a way out. How does he do this. He establishes a covenant with man. And thats the way I like to look at the New Birth Exp. As a covenant. It is kind of an outline so i hope you will be able to make it out.

A Better Covenant

Promise: A pledge to do, a commitment

Covenant: A contract, Agreement

Faith: The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Obedience: The act of doing what you have been asked or ordered to do by someone in authority.

1) God establishes a Promise.
2) By faith we hold God true to his word.
3) God initiates a covenant.
4) By faith we accept.
5) By obedience we enter and follow through with the covenant
6) By Faithfulness God fulfils his promise.

Through out the bible we can find many examples of God making promises and establishing covenants with his people. We find that God is always true to his word as long as we do our part.

Old Testament

1) Gen. 15:5 God promises Abram .
2) Gen. 15:6 Abram had Faith in God.
3) Gen. 17:1-20 God establishes a Covenant of circumcision with Abram .
4) Gen. 17:17-22 Abram laughed but still believed God.
5) Gen. 17:23-27 Abram was obedient and circumcised all his house.
6) Gen. 21:1-7 God fulfils his promise and Isaac is Born.

New Testament

1) John 3:1-21 God promises Nicodemus (God establishes a promise)
2) Luke 7:36-50 Even though many criticize Mary she still has faith in Jesus (By faith we hold god true)
3) John 3:1-8, Matt. 16:13-19, Luke 24:45-49,Acts 2:38 (God initiates a covenant or dicection)
a) Jesus tells Nicodemus about the New Birth /Covenant.
b) Jesus gives away the authority (Covenant directions/Terms) to Peter.
c) Jesus tells his disciples to share with the world the Promise of the New Covenant.
d) Peter and the rest of the Apostles share the New Covenant Birth with the World.
4) Acts 2:36-37 Sinners were pricked in their heart and believed what Peter preached. (By faith they accepted)
5) Acts 2:38-42 The amazed onlookers were obedient and entered in an everlasting covenant (New Birth experience) through repentance, water baptism in the Name of Jesus and infilling of the Holy Ghost. (By obedience they entered and followed through with the covenant)
6) 1Peter 1:3-5 God will fulfill His promise to the ones that were obedient on the day of Pentecost and to all those who are obedient until the soon coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (By faithfulness God fulfills his promise)


Today, just as in the day that God walked on this Earth…..
1) John 3:16 God Promises us Eternal Life.
2) Heb.11: 6 We must have faith in God.
3) John 3:1-8, Acts 2:38 God Establishes his covenant.
4) Mark 16:16, Acts 16:30, John 7:38-39 We must believe in what God says.
5) Heb.5:8-9, 2 Thes.1:7-8 We must be obedient to God.
6) 1Peter 1:3-5 God Will fulfill His Promise to us that are obedient to his Word.

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Through out the bible we can find many examples of God making promises and establishing covenants with his people. We find that God is always true to his word as long as we do our part.
[/i]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your covenental theology sounds very Catholic to me. Are you sure you are not the one with the beAds??
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

I promise

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Your covenental theology sounds very Catholic to me. Are you sure you are not the one with the beAds??
DHK <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what do you mean by this?

 

[ONENESS]

No replys about John 3:8 yet

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
you can look in the epistiels for salvation but that is not where you will find it. The Epistiles were written to churches that were already saved. Why tell a saved person how to get saved again. They were merely giving the instruction and ecourgment in living for Christ.

The book of Acts is where salvation is. Peter had the athority and that the bottom line. Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This shows your lack of understanding of the Scriptures. The Book of Acts is a book of history. It is not wise to take our doctrine solely from the book of Acts, for it is not a book of doctrine. The epistles on the other hand are doctrinal books. Doctrine is teaching, instruction.
The Epistle written to the Romans is the greatest theological treatise on soteriology ever inspired by the hand of God. The entire book is a very thorough explanation of salvation. Why do you think many Christians us the "Romans Road" when witnessing to others? The Book of Galatians was written because the Galatians had gone astray from the gospel and had started believing what Paul called "another gospel." He wrote to correct this, and in doing so, defined to them what the one and true gospel is. In 1Cor.7:1, Paul writes back to the Corinthians answering the questions and problems that the Corinthian church were facing. In 1Cor.15:1-4 he gives a summary of what the gospel is, and goes on in that chapter to give the foundation of the gospel--the resurrection. This chapter is the most detailed chapter in the Bible dealing with the resurrection of Christ, and is the very foundation of our salvation. Need I go on.
What you are referring to in the Book of Acts are examples, historical examples during a transitional time in the history of the church.
Let me deal with just one aspect of speaking in tongues from 1Cor.14, although I have already posted an entire exposition of this chapter.
You say that it is essential for Christians to speak in tongues. Look just at one passage here.

1Cor.14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Remeber, Paul was addressing the church. These were problems of the local church at Corinth. Tongues was not a private gift; it was a sign gift to be used in the church for the benefit of all. But it clearly says here that women are excluded from this gift. They were not to speak. They were to be silent. They were unable to speak in tongues. If you are going to follow the Scriptures, then logically this is what will occur:
1. If tongues are necessary for salvation, then you exclude half of the population from ever being saved, because women cannot speak in tongues Biblically.
2. If tongues are necessary to be baptized by the Spirit or are an evidence of being baptized of the Spirit, you have just excluded all women from this blessing.
3. If tongues are necessary to be filled with the Spirit, then you have just excluded all women from this blessing also.

It seems to me that, Biblically and spiritually, you treat your women worse than the Taliban treat theirs.
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

Never mind DHK, you dont have a desire to understand, what is the point with going on.

He came unto his own and his own received him not. Hes comeing again but you will receive him not.

I cant talk to you, I cant share new things with you b.c you are so closed minded.

Do woman talk at your church? Do they have a conversation out in the Lobby. If so you are going against the word of God. Unless you can put the scripture in context to what it is talking to.

At least our ladies look like ladies. You dont have to ask them what gendor they are. You can tell a mile away who one of our ladies are. Long Hair, Dress, No makeup, No jewlery. And there the most beautiful women you have ever seen. You should come hear them sing too. Man they are awesome.

Oh yea forgot, better tell all the ladies in your choir to sit down and shut up cause they cant say a word at church.

Start makeing since of what youa re saying.

Almost thought you were speaking in tongues.

IN THE NAME OF JESUS, HELP US ALL

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

For the third time you never answered my question about John 3:8

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Never mind DHK, you dont have a desire to understand, what is the point with going on.

Do woman talk at your church? Do they have a conversation out in the Lobby. If so you are going against the word of God. Unless you can put the scripture in context to what it is talking to.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The context is speaking in tongues. Read the post again.

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
you can look in the epistiels for salvation but that is not where you will find it. The Epistiles were written to churches that were already saved. Why tell a saved person how to get saved again. They were merely giving the instruction and ecourgment in living for Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe to clarify some mis-conceptions about salvation and oh..say tongues...as in the book of 1 Corinthians for instance?

Just because the epistles were writen to the churches does not make them lies.

One thing you can not do with the book of Acts is deny it's uniqueness. You can't say that everyone today will experience things as they did back then, because we were not alive when Jesus was. The only reason some things are different in the book of Acts is because it was a transition from the Old Covenant to the New Testament. What was started in the gospels was followed through by the pouring out of the Spirit on His people in the book of Acts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

The book of Acts is where salvation is. Peter had the athority and that the bottom line. Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does tongues come into all of this. It never says one must speak in tongues nor does it say that anyone there who received the word spoke in tongues. In fact the only miracles it says were done, were done by the Apostles not the people who believed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

I am sorry we disagree on the tongues issue. I read that the bible states that it is for us, and you dont. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where? It says that they are for a sign, not for everyone.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I showed you where paul said "I would that ye all speak in tongues" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You always cut this verse off mid-stream. You forget the words but rather.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 COrinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why you miss the point that there is something he would much rather us do is beyond me. Meaning..you could speak in tongues, but you don't have to and actually I would much rather you do something else!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I showed you where it said that the promise is unto you and to everyone" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, where? The Holy Spirit was promised to everyone, but the gift of tongues is for SOME as God chooses.

You also admitted that there is no distinction in the gift or the evidence, at least a Biblical distinction, just your experience and personal knowledge. That goes contrary to what the Bible says here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I showed you that unknown tongus is for us today. But you think it as already ceased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say they will be used for any other purpose then a sign? Where does it ever speak of tongues as some gibberish that you use? It does say they will cease and I believe they have.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either way, even if the gift is still around, your use of it is not in accordance with scripture. You speak in gibberish, tongues is a language


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I showed you that you speak mysteries in the Spirit, and you have a problem with that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I do and so did Paul. That is why in the same chapter he said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 14:13
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
nd i know htat you have showed me alot of stuff, but we both come up with two diffrent assumptions. The only thing I have to support what I believe is my interpratation of the Word of God and the experience that i have that is parellel with the book of Acts. The only thing that you have is your interpratation of the Word of God that is parellel with what you want to believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I base my beleif on the Word of God and that alone. You add your experience and that is where your trouble lies. Again, I repeat..your experience is not parallel with the book of Acts because the Apostles spoke in KNOWN languages for a specific purpose.

I would be glad to study the verse in John 3. What about it? I can hear the Spirit, I can feel the Spirit, but I still don't speak in tongues.

~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
For the third time you never answered my question about John 3:8<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Nicodemus came to Jesus by night seeking some answers. He had seen the miracles that Christ had done. "No man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with him" (vs.2). Nicodemus wanted to know about eternal life. What Jesus is about to explain to him is that there are two kinds of births, two kinds of lifes. Verse six says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There is the fleshly carnal life which we have through natural birth, that is being born of the flesh. Then there is the spiritual life which we have by being born of the Spirit. Two kinds of birth, and two kinds of life. If you are but born only once, that is by physical birth, you will die and go to Hell. You will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. You will end up separated from God for all eternity. You MUST be born again. It is an absolute necessity. He says this three times.
When Jesus first says that Nicodemus must be born again (vs.3), Nicodemus is confused. He does not understand. "He replies, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (Vs.4). Perhaps he was thinking of reincarnation or something related to that. He had been born once from his mother's womb. How could that event repeat itself? Jesus then answers, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. The Spirit obviously refers to the Holy Spirit. But what does the water refer to?
The context immediately rules out baptism. That's the farthest thing that would have been from Nicodemus's mind. He did not need to be baptized, nor was Jesus talking of baptism anywhere in this passage. There remains then two possibilities that are both viable. The first has already been presented to you, that this is a simple comparison between two different types of births: physical and spiritual— the water referring to the physical birth, and the spirit referring to the spiritual birth. This is a perfectly acceptable explanation. You must be born again— into God's family. Up to this point, Nicodemus, you are not. You are a child of the devil (John 8:44). You are dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1). You don't even exist spiritually. You are a child of wrath, a child of disobedience (Eph.2:2,3). You must be born again, adopted into God's family by receiving Christ as your Saviour (John 1:12,13).
But water could have another meaning. It could symbolically refer to the Word of God, as it does in other passages of Scripture. "Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you" (Jn.15:3).
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
---Notice this verse carefully. We were begat, that is born again with the Word of truth. That fits in with John 3:5, perfectly, as does 1Peter 1:23:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
---We are born again by His Word. Born again both by the Word and by the Spirit: both are necessary
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
---The wind is symbolic of the work of the Holy Spirit. You cannot see the wind, but you can see the evidence of the wind--the leaves shaking in the wind, and so on. You do not understand all the mysteries of the wind, as you do not understand all the mysteries of the working of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit works in the heart of a person, convicting him of his sin and bring him to the place where he may repent and trust Christ as Saviour, you may not always know how, when, where that is happening. Sometimes God speaks to an individual in a still small voice undiscernable to others. At others times he may speak to many with great conviction, as in a revival meeting. God works in mysterious ways. We do not always understand. Our minds our finite; God is infinite.
DHK

 

[Don]

Interesting....

So the best I can figure out is that you may believe I'm not saved, because I haven't spoken in tongues.

Please allow me to remind you: Tongues are a sign for them that believe not. I don't need to speak in tongues to prove (provide evidence) to you or anyone else that I'm saved. As it is stated, only God knows the heart.

As for John 3:8: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This verse is not saying that the Spirit will cause a sound to be uttered from us. In fact, the Spirit can make intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered (Romans 8:26)

Jesus was talking in a parable about how Nicodemus wasn't understanding the words that Jesus, and others, were telling him. Look at verses 10-12 for the explanation.

It basically meant that those of us with the Spirit in us, to unbelievers, were like the wind: They see it working in us, but understand not where it came from, or where it's leading us.

Oneness, please re-read John 6 in depth. One thing you will find is "it is the Spirit that quickeneth"; another is that no man comes to Christ except God leads him. This is incontrovertible, undeniable, unarguable scriptural evidence that the Spirit, God, works on us to save us. The concept that the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell us until after we are saved doesn't mesh with this teaching from God Himself.

Further, there are too, too many accounts of people in the book of Acts being saved without speaking in tongues. It is my (albeit limited) understanding of the Oneness Pentecostal belief system that one is baptized, and thus saved, and then speaks in tongues; this is contrary to Acts 10, which clearly shows that the Gentiles spoke in tongues before being baptized.

Oneness, MEE, I firmly believe it is YOU that is not seeing what the rest of us are saying. I firmly believe that it is YOU that has the blinders on, and has put a yoke on the people that wasn't meant to be there by "requiring" the speaking of tongues to "prove" (provide evidence of) salvation. God did not require this; but the Oneness Pentecostals do.

ANY time we come across someone who says that we must do a certain thing, we MUST question it. The Baptist pastor that says we must wear a tie...needs to be questioned. The well-meaning lady who sits in the back row and says we must go door-knocking every Thursday night or there's something wrong with our walk with God...needs to be questioned. The ones who step forward and say that we must be circumsized in the manner of Moses, or we cannot be saved...need to be questioned.

Those that say we must speak in tongues, or the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in us...need to be questioned.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

[susanpet]

Boy, does all this sound familiar! I am married to a man who speaks in tongues and I don't. All it has done has caused strife in our marriage. He goes to a pentacoastal church and my daughter and I go to a baptist. I can't even discuss any thing about religion to him because he's had this experience and he tells me I am wrong. I have prayed for 10 yrs. for God to work this out and I have hope He will. I can't understand why some people get this gift and others do not. But it only makes the people I know who have this "gift' to act like they are the only ones who know God. I believe that Jesus doesn't like for His children to bicker over doctinal issues and to get on board and grow up and realize that He shed His precious blood to save us. That is all He will look for when He comes back. Is the blood applied to your soul?

 

[wishtolearn]

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here but I have a question. My husband's friend at work is Pentacostal and although they discuss religion occasionally, he doesn't come home with a lot of pertinent information. Exactly what is this language you are speaking? Armaic? Klingon? What does it sound like?

Please don't insinuate that women other than those at your church only look like real women. I've seen some of the gals who have the long unshapely hair and no makeup. Makes me want to run to the Clinique counter and stock up. Everybody has their own ideals on what makes them look beautiful.

 

[ONENESS]

wish to learn, looking beautiful and looking godly are two diffrent things. i am not going to start a standards issue but and I did not mean that no one else looks like women except for the UPC womean.

I know there are alot of Methodist, Baptist, etc. That up hold to what the bible teaches on this matter.

And yes some are ugly, But there are even some that wear make up that make me want to run and get an ax. j/k

ITs not on the outside that makes one who they are. You can wear a dress, never cut your hair and yadda yadda yadda and be the most unholly person in the world.

Its the HEart that determines what you are.

COme to Jesus just like you are, but dont stay that way.

Guys about tongues, we are beating a dead horse. I can understand where you are comeing from and why you believe what you do.

THere is a video called oneness vs. the Trnity, and it is a debate b/t David Bernard and another baptist preacher. It is really great. I am not the best at explaining everything that I need to. Being here I can tell how much I dont know. and I can tell where i need to study up on.

But I will get that video back from a friend and I will try some way to get it on a written format.

Thanks

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: ONENESS ]