spin-off from "Route to Calvinism"

[webdog]

Did you write this?

Yes, you did.

After I quoted your original comment which was this:


What am I being dishonest about?
You changed the statement from it's original wording to clarify that "some" Calvinists don't know what Calvinism teaches" based on one person's beliefs encountered on this board.
Words fail me, webdog.

Are you deliberately trying to mislead? I would hope not. I stand by what I stated.

 

[donnA]

I was just about to leave, and came back to say, it's really sad that there are people who believe they can control God, they plan, and enact their plans and God has to follow suit, do what they want, or make sure they get what they want. No matter what His own plans might have been.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

No decision? Do you make plans" without deciding what you will do? I mean -- I love this verse because it shows what liberty we have in Christ that we CAN make plans and decisions, still be in the will of God, and He rewards or either detours our plans for our good.

Read it again. man's plans are not the ones whose become the steps.
God determines the steps.
I plan, I think, but ultimately the choice I make, the step I take, is that which has been determined by God. And that's why I am held accountable, because it was the plan, the choice I wanted. I unknowingly conformed to God's steps by my plans.
Please show where "man" in this verse is said to be the one who caused the "steps".

No, but "Hey, what are you doing" suggests that that questions comes in that it wasn't what man would have decided to do, right?

Man's decisions aren't even a factor in that verse.
The verse is Nebuchadnexxar's praise that God brings about His purposes and will without consulting man or checking to see if man's choices match up. God does what He pleases, He does that which conforms to His purposes. Man's decisions aren't even given a place in this passage.

Here's what is wrong with your reply -- God has made many promises and threats. We cannot change the outcome of either our obedience or of our disobedience. God has "laid down" in the Bible what will happen! We can still decide to disobey, can't we? God has already decided what will happen if we do, hasn't He? Unless He shows mercy upon whom He will, we're stuck!

This is irrelevant. What does this have to do with the verse?

Lamentations 3: 37
Who can speak and have it happen if the LORD has not decreed it?

It's a rhetorical question that has the answer of "NNE".
No man can speak and have something happen if God has not decreed it.
Notice there's no mention that God simply "knew ahead of time". The word is "decreed". Look up the meaning. There's no wiggle room for God simply knowing man's words or actions beforehand.

Oh? Your parents didn't choose to make love? You couldn't choose to commit suicide? You have never chosen where you will live? These things were "foreordained" in that God foresaw them and permitted them.

Huh? Who said man doesn't do things or make choices?
Not me.
Here's the verse again:

Acts 17: 26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

According to you, the passage should read like this:

Acts 17: 26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he looked ahead and saw the times set for them and the exact places where they would live.

How can it say that God is determining things, if really all he is doing is looking ahead to see what man has determined will happen?

They were NOT decided by God. God did NOT decide that your parents would marry one another much less the rest. He KNEW of it -- He KNEW what every gene in your parents would make you to be like.

Hmm. So God knew it would happen, but had nothing to do with it? Ever??
Oh, wait. You said:

isaiah -- these all show man making a decision and God overriding if man's decision is not according to God's plan.

So since you've allowed that God can "override" man's decisions if they are not according to his plan, then you must know when this occurs and when it does not?
Do you?

2 Timothy 1:9
who saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

I think I've seen you post something that says that God doesn't know of man's choices until He creates them, which is why God doesn't know those who are going to hell. If I have time, I'll look for the exact quote.
I don't think this verse in 2 Timothy can support that view.

"Counsel and foreknowledge" -- Yes. And He foreknew that Israel would reject Jesus too. That didn't mean it was His will nor that He made them reject Jesus.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

That verse plainly says it was God's set purpose that Christ be crucified by wicked men.
I'm not sure how else to read the verse. God's set purpose. God's purpose.

Eph. 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

This verse says that "everything" is worked by God to conform with the purpose of his will.
That means it was His will that Israel reject their Messiah. His will was carried out by "wicked men". That's how the Bible views God's will being accomplished, by men's actions.
The Bible does not know of a God who looks ahead to in order to know.

He "foreknew" it and "directed the steps," the consequences, accordingly.
No, had known and ordained beforehand.

Well, I guess when you change the verses around, you can make them say anything. You keep talking about God directing consequences, but that idea of ordering "consequences" is nowhere to be found

Acts 4:28
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

God decided beforehand what would happen and men's (unforced, free, voluntary, etc.)actions did it.

You are making way too much out of God controlling evil as well as good!

I'm reading the Bible at face value.

Lamentations 3: 38
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

No, the Bible is.
NIV translates "calamity", KJV "evil"
Word is the same in Hebrew, ra'a.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkeness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
"disaster"?
same Hebrew word which translates "evil".
So what do we do with these statements.
Pretend they don't have meaning.
Tell people that Satan is the reason bad things happen to them?
Every Christian has to make a decision about what to do with these difficult texts.
It's not easy for you or for me.
So rather than state

You are making way too much out of God controlling evil as well as good!

you could recognize that the Bible has some troubling statements about God's actions.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

"man's plans" -- no decision made here
"BUT God determines his steps"-- steps are determined by God, not man.
The BUT in the verse makes it clear, that God is ultimately in control of what event actually takes place.

Reconcile this notion with sin. Do you believe God is the author of sin?

Wait.
Do you agree that this is what this verse and the others are teaching?
Do you believe that God has determined that which will happen?

Agreed. What does this have to do with intellect and day to day choices, though...the very choices God sets before us?

Our choices are ours in the sense that we want them and we make them. I do those things that I want to do and from God's perspective, I am doing that which He has determined.
My sin is mine and God's displeasure with it rests on me.
God did not make me commit the sin, however his determination of it makes it conform to His purposes and will.
I cannot blame God and say he made me do it, because the sinful desires which birthed it, reside in my heart as a result of my sinful nature.

To answer your question about God "being the author of sin", I'll say this:
At this point in my studying, I do not see God making me sin in order to accomplish His will. My sinful desires make me sin.
Somehow in God's view, His will for that sin to occur is done without me being able to escape accountability.

According to you, what does it mean for "God to be the author of sin"?

Your theology sounds like that of the hyper's...or let me clarify "some"... on here (God is the first cause of absolutely everything including sin, or He is not sovereign)

First of all, let me say thank you for clarifying your remarks. It's way more helpful than speaking in generalizations.
Second, I don't know what the Calvinists on here believe.
I can say that hyper-Calvinism is rare, more rare than non-Calvinists think.
Third, I will reserve including myself from the others on here until I know more of what they believe.

 

[MB]

Wow, you guys are hard work.
MB, I said that "that entry" is not my post, meaning I didn't write that post.
I linked to it on my blog and posted an excerpt of what the girl was saying.
Please, I beg you, read more carefully.

My mistake I understand now I'm sorry.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Donna;

I was just about to leave, and came back to say, it's really sad that there are people who believe they can control God, they plan, and enact their plans and God has to follow suit, do what they want, or make sure they get what they want. No matter what His own plans might have been.

I've been posting here for a little while now and I haven't read any such post. I have met those who believe that man has no control of there own destiny. That God controls every thought and action of man. If this is true then those same people believe that God directs our path right in to sin. That God stops men from believing in Him making God responsible for all our sins. You see God does direct our path this is true, it's just that we don't always follow His directions. Your preconceived ideas of what God's will really is isn't what you believe them to be at all. God is in control but the doctrine of Calvinism doesn't define what God's will really is.

The Bible tells us what His will is but maybe you haven't seen it.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What is God's will? isn't to have all men to be saved. Is His will carried out? No saddly it isn't, not because God isn't willing but, because not all men are willing

MB

 

[webdog]

Wait.
Do you agree that this is what this verse and the others are teaching?
Do you believe that God has determined that which will happen?

I'm not talking about that verse, but your comment on it. I don't believe God determines man's sin, no.

According to you, what does it mean for "God to be the author of sin"?

In the same sense a book is written. I can write a book about a character's life, and the character is bound to do what I wrote. I determined what the character would do, and how. If I write that the character murders someone, I'm the first cause of him being a murderer.

I can say that hyper-Calvinism is rare, more rare than non-Calvinists think.

It's not too rare here. This is a rare board.

 

[webdog]

I was just about to leave, and came back to say, it's really sad that there are people who believe they can control God, they plan, and enact their plans and God has to follow suit, do what they want, or make sure they get what they want. No matter what His own plans might have been.

I believe that it is also really sad. I don't see that here, though, so if you are implying that's what the non cal's here believe, you have erected a strawman. You will see plenty of that on a catholic board, though.

 

[donnA]

Hi Amy;
This is a quote from your blog

How do you know it wasn't God's plan that you be fat. What gave you the right to think for yourself as in " You have to want it " Your testimony here is true. Salvation is that way, you have to want it. It isn't just given to you. You really have to want it. You have to be willing to accept it by your own voluntary will.
God's plans for us are never forced on us. He also has a plan for us if we reject Him . It's called hell.
Demonstrations of men living by there own plans;
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


MB

In that case, theres nothing wrong with being fat and unhealthy, a person could just say God intended me to be this way, so I don't have to do anything about it.

 

[donnA]

I believe that it is also really sad. I don't see that here, though, so if you are implying that's what the non cal's here believe, you have erected a strawman. You will see plenty of that on a catholic board, though.

I am seeing exactly what I described on this thread and on the previous one.

 

[johnp.]

webdog.

I don't believe God determines man's sin, no.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience...

If I write that the character murders someone, I'm the first cause of him being a murderer.

Job 2:21 ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

Not like you webdog a?

john.

 

[webdog]

I am seeing exactly what I described on this thread and on the previous one.

I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, your TULIP colored glasses must be dirtier than I thought. I see no such thing here.

 

[webdog]

webdog.



Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience...



Job 2:21 ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

Not like you webdog a?

john.

Isaiah40:28, here you go!

I can say that hyper-Calvinism is rare, more rare than non-Calvinists think.

 

[johnp.]

ISA 40:27 Why do you say, O Jacob, and complain, O Israel, "My way is hidden from the LORD; my cause is disregarded by my God"? 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

And what? PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

They only do His bidding for Him to deal with as He pleases. It's my favourite! RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Now answer mine.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Knowledge

We all are in need of Jesus, there is none without sin.

Nor can we blame God, God cannot not be tempted nor tempt anyone. We are drawn by our own evil desires.

Who can save us from this body of death praise be to Jesus.

God has predestined those who are in Christ to be saved, our only hope is Jesus.

To say God directs the path to sin, is what God will not do. We are drawn by our own evil desires.

Jesus can save us from this body of death.

The path that God is leading you to by your own desires is death and only Jesus can save you from it.

God says to trust in the Lord, not your own understanding and He will direct your path.

We might not reach this generation, but the next generation is here to.

 

[webdog]

ISA 40:27 Why do you say, O Jacob, and complain, O Israel, "My way is hidden from the LORD; my cause is disregarded by my God"? 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

And what? PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

They only do His bidding for Him to deal with as He pleases. It's my favourite! RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Now answer mine.

john.

Isaiah40:28 is a poster, John. It would help to read the entire thread...

 

[johnp.]

psalms.

To say God directs the path to sin, is what God will not do.

Roms 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience...

To say God directs the path to sin, is what God will not do.

PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.

God says to trust in the Lord, not your own understanding and He will direct your path.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

john.

 

[johnp.]

webdog.

What are you saying, Isaiah 40:28 is a poster? Explain yourself please and respond to my points please.

john.

 

[webdog]

webdog.

What are you saying, Isaiah 40:28 is a poster? Explain yourself please and respond to my points please.

john.

Try READING THE THREAD. You will understand exactly who Isaiah40:28 is!:BangHead:

You really made no points to begin with worth responding to. Anyone can pull a Scripture verse out of context. Responding to your arguments is futile, as you don't like help putting Scripture back into context.

 

[johnp.]

Ok, the penny has dropped.

I am not hyper but if I had a choice, which I don't, I would rather acknowledge God's Sovereignty more than anything else. That is the only thing that matters. God is Sovereign.

You really made no points to begin with worth responding to.

If I might be so ignorant as to remind you of your own words: Just what the BB needs...more arrogance, ad hominems and the spreading of vitriol (webdog)

john.