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Spirit of God - Catholic church stuns the world

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wopik

New Member
The Catholic church stunned the world with its new ideas about the Spirit. The new concept is printed in their second editon encyclopedia. These new ideas come closest to what the Spirit actually is ----

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition, article: Spirit of God (all quotes come from this article) ---

"The OT (Old Testament) clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's Power.

"If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Isa. 48:16; 63:11; 32:15).......Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis.1:3-7). When such expressions are used, THEY ARE MERE FIGURES OF SPEECH that are explained by the fact that the RUAH was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8).

"Neither is there found in the OT or in rabbinical literature the notion that God's spirit is an intermediary being between God and the world. This activity is proper to the angels, although to them is ascribed some of the activity that elsewhere is ascribed to the spirit of God"

THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA FURTHER STATES:

".......the NT (New Testament) concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT.......The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

"When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God's spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:9), one is NOT JUSTIFIED IN CONCLUDING immediately that in these passages God's spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom.6:6; 7:17).

Thus the context of the phrase 'blasphemy against the spirit' (Mat.12:31; cf. Mat.12:28; Luke 11:20) shows that reference is being made to the power of God".
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
They appear to be imploding from the doctrinal errors of Catholicism to something now closer to Mormonism.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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wopik

New Member
The apostle Paul states clearly that "there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ ..." (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.

***************************************

Jesus likewise never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between God the Father and Himself (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18,22; etc.). The Holy Spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ’s teaching in general.

Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about Himself and the Father, especially when He never makes similar statements about Himself and the Holy Spirit.

We should also consider that, in visions of God’s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; 7:10).

Jesus is repeatedly mentioned as being at the right hand of God, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father’s left hand.

Nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in the Scriptures.
 
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Ray Berrian

New Member
'Jesus commands that we preach/teach not just in some nations but all countries of the world. And when water baptism takes place it is to be ministered in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The last chapter of Matthew is not faint hearted but clearly includes the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit. {vs. 19}

God is one and is known to the saved of this world as God the Spirit, God the Son, and God the Father.

At Jesus' baptism the voice of the Father in Heaven sounded, John the Baptist baptized the Son, and the Holy Spirit was not only in attendance but 'lighted on Him.' {Matthew 3:16-17}

I know there used to be a quasi-Christian group in Lancaster County Pennsylvania who called themselves, Jesus Only. One might really question if they were even saved and in the fold of Christ.

In St. John fourteen indicates the reality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit of God.

Berrian, Th.D.
 
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wopik

New Member
At Jesus' baptism the voice of the Father in Heaven sounded,...
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IMO, it was probably not the Father's voice, since Jesus said we have neither seen His shape or heard His voice at any time (Jn 5:37).

"And lo a voice from heaven....." - Matt 3:17.

Angels sometimes bring and announce messages.
 
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natters

New Member
wopik, I think you're reading into those quotes. They seem to be about specific passages, etc. I would like to see the entire article - do you have a link? I have seen my fair share of misquotes and misunderstood quotes during my time on discussion boards, and this feels no different. The Catholic Church has always been the biggest explainer and defender or orthodox Trinitarian doctrine.
 
M

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

I know there used to be a quasi-Christian group in Lancaster County Pennsylvania who called themselves, Jesus Only. One might really question if they were even saved and in the fold of Christ.

Berrian, Th.D.
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Why would you question the salvation of a Jesus Only Church? They believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Isn't that what most people think that one has to do to be saved?

MEE
saint.gif
 
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Ray Berrian

New Member
billwald,

'If the OT pictured the HS as a person then why has 6,000 years of Jewish scholarship missed it?'
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'The reason why the Israelites and other people missed the reality of the Holy Spirit, is because they are blinded to the truth. The Jewish rabbis were more interested in perpetuating their own religious traditions including which kinds of foods to eat or not eat. As early as Genesis 1:2; Genesis 6:3b & then again in Psalm 51:11 the second King of Israel said, 'Cast me not away from Thy Presence; and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.' We need to get the Gospel to all non-Christians so the Spirit of God can work on their lives, so they might respond to the living and true God. References to the Spirit of God are written in many places in the O.T., while there are more references as to His Personality in the N.T.

Every Christian is indwelled by the Spirit of God and the Apostle Paul reminds us to not 'grieve the Holy Spirit of God . . . ' {Ephesians 4:30}
 
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natters

New Member
Ray Barrian said "References to the Spirit of God are written in many places in the O.T."

True, but not usually as a "person", and rarely conclusively so. I think that's the point of the initial quotes at the top of this thread. For example, may KJV-only supporters like to quote NIV Executive Director Kenneth Barker as saying "Few clear and decisive texts say that Jesus is God", but Barker *affirms* that Jesus is God, he was just making an observation about scripture, and also did NOT say that Jesus is not God or that there are no texts that say Jesus is God. As the Catholic Church is the biggest defender of orthodox Trinitarianism, I suspect the quotes at the top of this thread are these sorts of quotes, presented in a way and in an attempt to make the Catholic Church look like it is unorthodox in this matter.
 
H

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
Genesis 1:2 -- "...and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Gen. 6:3 -- "...my Spirit will not contend with man forever..." (if God is speaking, and He is, then He would say -- if the Holy Spirit were not a person -- "I will not contend with man forever." The idea of "My strength will not contend with man forever" actually indicates that man is strong enough to take on God!)

Nehemiah 9:30 -- "By your Spirit you admonished them through your prophets."

Pslm 106:33 -- "for they rebelled against the Spirit of God,..." (if the Spirit were not His own Person, then "for they rebelled against God" would have been quite sufficient.)

Ezekiel 2:2 -- "As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raise me to my feed and I heard him speaking to me."

Micah 2:7 -- "Should it be said, O house of Jacob:'Is the Spirit of the Lord angry? Does he do such things?'"
(a quality, such as power or strength, cannot be angry in and of itself. Only a person or animal or angel -- at any rate a complete being of some kind -- can be angry.)

Zechariah 4:6 -- "So he said to me, 'This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty." (that sentence is utter nonsense if the Holy Spirit is nothing but the might and/or power of God!)

At Jesus baptism, it is true that we only read that a 'voice from heaven' spoke. But what that Voice SAID is "This is my Son, whom I love..." -- what angel would say that?

And I don't know what Scriptures the Catholics are reading that they would claim Jesus did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a Person, but my Bible says, in John 14:26, "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

or go back bit to John 14:16, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

I would assume from Jesus statement there that the Catholic church is of the world and neither sees the Holy Spirit nor knows Him.

John 16:13-14 -- "But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."

(This last is absolutely nonsensical, again, if the Holy Spirit is not a person. For the Holy Spirit in this passage is a 'he' who guides, speaks, hears, and brings glory to Christ.)

Actually, Bob Ryan has his finger on the truth of the matter. Mary is to be elevated and since there are only three in the Godhead, one of the real Trinity must be debunked.

Talk about a sin against the Holy Spirit!!!
 
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gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by BobRyan:
They appear to be imploding from the doctrinal errors of Catholicism to something now closer to Mormonism.

In Christ,

Bob
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Doesn't surprise me. It has been known for some time that some of the RCC churches have done services with the Mormons. I pastored an SBC church in AZ and they liked to do activities with the Mormons. But when I came they didn't like me because I interfered with that. But now they have a pastor who will roll over and play dead.
 
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Ray Berrian

New Member
gb93433,

Sorry I touched the wrong lever on my computer.

Mega years ago while in Mesa, Arizona, the Mormon Church had a small chapel kind of thing where they gave out materials about their church. {cult} I had a lengthy discussion with the host there about Biblical facts. While in this tri-city we attended First Baptist Church.

Do the Mormons still have those centers presently? I do know that you do not still live in Arizona, so you might know for sure.
 
B

Bro Tony

New Member
gb93433,

When and where did you pastor in Mesa? You are right still today many of our Baptist churches see no problem with joining with the Mormons.

Bro Tony
 
W

wopik

New Member
natters

wopik, I think you're reading into those quotes. They seem to be about specific passages, etc. I would like to see the entire article - do you have a link?
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I went to my local county library branch and they had the Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition, article: Spirit of God.

I have found no link online.
 
D

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Helen:

And I don't know what Scriptures the Catholics are reading that they would claim Jesus did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a Person, but my Bible says, in John 14:26, "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit Whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

or go back bit to John 14:16, "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you."
.....

John 16:13-14 -- "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."

(This last is absolutely nonsensical, again, if the Holy Spirit is not a person. For the Holy Spirit in this passage is a 'he' who guides, speaks, hears, and brings glory to Christ.)
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[surfacing]
Helen makes some really good points (I hope you don't mind I capitalized the masculine pronoun in reference to the Deity and have bolded a couple of more words for emphasis)

Here's another:
"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." John 15:26

Here the Helper (the Spirit) is identified by personal pronouns and is distinguished from the Father (since He "proceeds from the Father") and the Son (as He is "sent" by the Son).

And another:
"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth. It is for your advantage that I go away; for if I (Jesus) do not go away, the Helper (the Spirit) will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement"

So basically one can't interperet correctly John 14-17 without seeing the truth of the Trinity.

I'm not surprised that representatives of certain groups on here deny this fundamental truth about God as these are obviously oblivious to the Nicene Creed. However, I was a bit surprised (but not necessarily shocked) to see a Catholic Encyclopedia actually suggesting the Holy Spirit is not a person. [I say not shocked, for one could possibly make the case the the RCC's demotion of the Holy Spirit began with its unilateral insertion of the Filioque into the Nicene Creed about a thousand years ago. Which leads to Helen's next point...]

Actually, Bob Ryan has his finger on the truth of the matter. Mary is to be elevated and since there are only three in the Godhead, one of the real Trinity must be debunked.

Talk about a sin against the Holy Spirit!!!
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I disagree that the elevation of Mary necessarily entails a demotion of the Spirit. In the Orthodox church, Mary is honored quite a bit (certainly more than in Protestant churches, but not to the extreme of certain RCC dogmas and opinions), but the Holy Spirit is certainly emphasized and worshipped equally with the Father and the Son. As I mentioned above, I believe that the demotion of the Spirit began first with the Filioque and an overemphasis on the Augustinian* view of the Trinity, but I could see where the current push to call Mary "Co-Redemptrix" (and the crazy idea that ALL prayers must be filtered through Mary) would further His "demotion".

[*as opposed to the Cappodocian--and, I submit, the Biblical--teaching of the Trinity which was expounded in the Nicene Creed]

[/submerging]
 
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