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Spirit or Ghost?
- Thread starter robycop3
- Start date
KJB1611reader
Member
No, there is a reason for the distinction.
Mny explainations online how its the same person of Trinity but the roles are different.
Mny explainations online how its the same person of Trinity but the roles are different.
I say that in an effort to make God more like us we insist on him being like us. We think God is interested in every one understanding his mind by just casually picking up a Bible and reading it and if the reader thinks it can be better understood with his choice of words then they should be changed. The only things God is interested in men understanding is that he is God, and his creation proves that to all men, and second, he has made the gospel of his salvation so simple that a child can understand it because it is not dependent upon the written word but by the testimony of a preacher who has been saved and is able to persuade the unsaved sinner in his own words. Understanding the great doctrines of the faith is not like this but requires an every word testimony of God himself and a heart that is submissive to his words and a mind that is engaged in seeking for his words and his ways. (God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe.
The Spirit of God is typified in the scriptures and because his function in his relationship with man is both on the inside and outside He is typified by a cloud, water, light and a host of other types. Twice, as I think of him as a ghostly cloud is 1) the baptism of Israel in the cloud in Egypt when God baptized Israel in the cloud and in the sea, both elements typifying the Spirit of God, one inward and the other outward. Number two is the Spirit appeared as an engulfing cloud on the mount of transfiguration of Christ in Mark 9. These redeemed men were in the cloud. The glorification of resurrected bodies of redeemed men will be the brightness of the glory of God which is being clothed with the Holy Ghost, as was Adam and Eve were when created. They were naked and knew it not, until they sinned. This is the image of God.
I would not change anything about the typical teaching found in the KJV. I do not want a God like me, I want to be like God.
Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
My faith is that I will one day be clothed by the Holy Ghost individually and will stand in the crowd, the church of Jesus Christ, who are collectively clothed with the Holy Ghost, occupying the heavenlies where clouds reside.
Re 2217 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Water on the inside;
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).
1 Timothy 6:16
Speaking of our Lord Jesus. a Man, dwelling in the light that cannot be seen. the Spirit.
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
That is my take on the KJV from whence we have the mind of God in words.
Well, ACTUALLY, God spoke His mind to His chosen penmen in THEIR languages, keeping those languages in constant use so they could be translated into then-future languages that followed. The KJV is but one translation of His words into English, not THE exclusive one. Bible versions in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek are actually closer to the originals than any other versions. The KJV has clear goofs & booboos, along with being in now-archaic English which is not in everyday use now. And 'ghost' is one example. In Elizabethan English, 'ghost' had several possible meanings, depending upon the context in which it was used. But the meaning has changed & doesn't simply mean "a spirit" any more. Thus, 'Holy Ghost" no longer commands the reverence it once did. Time to move to a MODERN-LANGUAGE Bible version !
Many men think like you and the last expression of the church, according to the word of God, is heaped up teachers having itching ears, and neither hot nor cold. This in spite of all the new English Bibles with different words, which you would have us believe will put us "in the know."
God forbid that I think like you.
More concerned about why the Kjv translated the Holy Spirit as being an IT, in 4 passages?
Where are the passages and why is it wrong?
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Please point me to a representative website.
There are excuses for the distinction, but no reasons. The Greek for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are exactly the same, πνεῦμα ἅγιον (with or without the definite articles). In our Japanese Lifeline translation (Home - Lifeline Japanese Bible, we translated the term the same, no matter what people say the so-called difference is: 聖霊. If we had translated "Holy Ghost" literally into Japanese (聖なる幽霊), there would be a huge misunderstanding by readers of who He is. We would have been laughed out of the country. The Holy Spirit is not some kind of incorporeal representation of a dead person.
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Here is a bizarre website where the author (a Dr. Benar, apparently) tries to make a comparison between "Holy Ghost" and "give up the ghost"--https://www.kjvtextualtechnology.com/holy-ghost-or-holy-spirit.php. That's ridiculous, because the phrase "give up the ghost" is simply a 17th century idiom. An idiom is: “any expression peculiar to a language, conveying a distinct meaning, not necessarily explicable by, occasionally even contrary to, the general accepted grammatical rules.” (Dictionary of Linguistics, Mario Pei & Frank Gaynor, p. 95). In other words, often when you translate an idiom in a strictly literal rendering, the meaning changes and you have failed as a translator. "Holy Ghost" was a literal translation for the KJV translators, but when Jesus "gave up the ghost" on the cross, it simply means "died." There was no literal ghost involved.
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In the King James Version, the Holy Spirit is referred to as "it" in a few places, primarily due to the grammatical nature of the Greek word "pneuma," which translates to "spirit" and is grammatically neuter. For example, John 1:32 and 1 Peter 1:11 use "it" in reference to the Spirit, and Romans 8:16, 26 uses "the Spirit itself" instead of "the Spirit himself," according to Logos.
Jn 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
The "it" is a reference to the form of the appearance of the Spirit. the Dove.
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Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
In this passage the Spirit is not presented as the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead even though he is. The context is to inform what gives life to the body that is dead and condemned. (death means separation from God and that is all it means) These verses are in the context of the hope of a new glorified body for the person who is in Christ Jesus. The Spirit is the life of both the Father and the son.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (the Father) dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit (of Christ) that dwelleth in you.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The Spirit is presented to us here as the LIFE of God when he is in the mortal body of the believer. He is the quickening, the agent of life. He is properly referred to as "it" in this context. There is so much to learn from this context.
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1Pe 1:10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets (of the OT) have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (in the prophets of the OT before the Holy Ghost was sent to Israel to indwell them and convert them) did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (his sufferings) In none of these instances is the Spirit presented to us as the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
The "it" is a reference to the form of the appearance of the Spirit. the Dove.
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Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
In this passage the Spirit is not presented as the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead even though he is. The context is to inform what gives life to the body that is dead and condemned. (death means separation from God and that is all it means) These verses are in the context of the hope of a new glorified body for the person who is in Christ Jesus. The Spirit is the life of both the Father and the son.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (the Father) dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit (of Christ) that dwelleth in you.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The Spirit is presented to us here as the LIFE of God when he is in the mortal body of the believer. He is the quickening, the agent of life. He is properly referred to as "it" in this context. There is so much to learn from this context.
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1Pe 1:10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets (of the OT) have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (in the prophets of the OT before the Holy Ghost was sent to Israel to indwell them and convert them) did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (his sufferings) In none of these instances is the Spirit presented to us as the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost.
37818
Well-Known Member
What was the reason?
The Holy Spirit should never be translated as an It, as He is very God
How do you know this?
How do I know that He is God?
Be serious. You did not question if the likeness of the Dove was God, you questioned if he was an it and Spirit at the same time..
37818
Well-Known Member
The Greek is in the neuter.
So Romans 8:16 was literally translated as, The Spirit itself . . . .
While it is true that the Greek word for "spirit" (πνεῦμα) is neuter, it is a grammatical neuter, not a gender neuter. We have clear evidence all through Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not a thing. He speaks, He can be grieved and resisted, He comforts, etc. Therefore, it is correct and a literal rendering to translate references to the Holy Spirit with "he/him," not with "it." To translate the Spirit of God with "it" is too literal, much like a lot of Young's Literal Translation, and is in error.
Furthermore, in 2025 it is also wrong to translate "Holy Spirit" as "Holy Ghost." It is impossible to do so in many languages without causing total confusion. It is only because of the KJV rendering that we are at all comfortable with calling God's blessed Spirit a "ghost." Maybe you heard of the man who did a Spanish translation and translated πνεῦμα as "fantasma," meaning an actual ghost, the spirit of a dead person. He was virtually laughed out of the country.
Furthermore, in 2025 it is also wrong to translate "Holy Spirit" as "Holy Ghost." It is impossible to do so in many languages without causing total confusion. It is only because of the KJV rendering that we are at all comfortable with calling God's blessed Spirit a "ghost." Maybe you heard of the man who did a Spanish translation and translated πνεῦμα as "fantasma," meaning an actual ghost, the spirit of a dead person. He was virtually laughed out of the country.