Spirit or Ghost?

[robycop3]

The KJV refers to the Holy Spirit as both the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. However, no modern English version I know of ever refers to Him as "Ghost".

Now, while "Holy Ghost" was OK in 1611, MODERN usage of the word "ghost" carries something not holy about it. It usually refers to the disembodied spirit of a dead person and to me using it as the name of the Holy Spirit in modern English is less-than-fully-respectful.

WHAT SAYEST THOU?

 

[TexasSky]

It may be used as "less than respectful" today, but the word carries the same meaning.

 

[FrankBetz]

Roby, if you believe in ghosts/ disembodied spirits, then you really do have a problem!!

There's not but One Ghost, and He's HOLY!!

 

[av1611jim]

Just one more attempt to smear a Bible that SOME folks would rather disappear.


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

The modern translation are consistent in translating pneuma as spirit. That's remarkable since pneuma actually means spirit.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ghost is "up to date" NOW, just as it was in 1611. (The Ghostbusters, She saw a ghost, TV paranormal researchers HUNTING ghosts, etc.) Nobody that I have ever read or heard about mistook the Holy Ghost for an unholy one. That's ridiculous. (The Pentecostals CERTAINLY mistake UNHOLY ONES for the Holy Ghost though!)

Inconsistency in translation (YEAH! for the KJ translators) turns out to PRODUCE consistent truth, which is ALWAYS given therein. (See Gentiles for Greeks in 1 Cor.10, which PRODUCES THE TRUTH of the text. BARBARIAN GENTILES, not Greeks.)

A ghost is a BODILY APPARITION. Within the OT, they gave up the ghost, and it WENT SOMEWHERE. (See Genesis, Job, etc.)

Well, well, what do we have in Luke 16 and Rev.6. We have DEAD PEOPLE (souls) with BODILY CHARACTERISTICS. The GHOST is a bodily shape. It is the SOULISH BODY of the individual.

When the Holy Ghost appeared at Christ's baptism, HE TOOK the "bodily shape" of a DOVE, typical of a clean spirit. He could APPEAR as a shape.

YOU HAVE THE HOLY GHOST IN YOU, which is THE IMAGE, the BODILY SHAPE of Christ. (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory.) Rom.8, Col.1-2

RESPECT the ole' Book like it is, for NOTHING has replaced it as of yet, in clarity, honesty, and absolute truth.

Amen.

 

[Artimaeus]

I asked the question once upon a time, How come it says Holy Spirit in some places and Holy Ghost in others? Is there a difference?. When told they were the same word in the original language I was satisfied and never gave it another thought. So, no problem here.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

A long time ago, someone told me that the Father's name is God, the Son's name is Jesus, and the Holy Ghost's is Holy Spirit. Well, go ahead and laugh...I can take it, lol.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The modern translation are consistent in translating pneuma as spirit. That's remarkable since pneuma actually means spirit.

Exactly right!

 

[Ben W]

Why not use the term Comforter?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The modern translation are consistent in translating pneuma as spirit. That's remarkable since pneuma actually means spirit.

Exactly right! </font>[/QUOTE]Both the pastor's have it "exactly wrong" here. Where in Greek do you see, "pneuma actually means spirit"? "Pneuma" was first used by the Greek Philosopher, Anaximen in the 6th century B.C, where he used it for "blast, wind". As we read in John 3:8, "the pneuma (wind) blows where it wills". It is also used for "breath of life" ; "divine inspiration"; even a "living being"; and also "spirit". So, to say "pneuma actually means spirit", is not completly correct, since this meaning of "pneuma" was not the earliest.

In 1590, which was before the KJV, our English word "Ghost" meant, "a person". Before this time, in 1485 it was used for "good spirits", and in 1529, for "evil spirits". In Middle English, "ghost" = "spirit", so the KJV was right to render it as it did, for the time. However, the meaning in Modern English has somewhat changed, and therefore "spirit" is now the accepted reading. Either word is acceptable, since Biblically they both mean the same thing.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Why not use the term Comforter?

BenW, The Greek word "pneuma" is never, as far as I am aware, used for "comforter". The correct Greek word for this is "parakletos", which literally means, "called to one's side", as in a legal term for an "advocate"

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Just one more attempt to smear a Bible that SOME folks would rather disappear.


In HIS service;
Jim

Jim, I think that this is a bit harsh. I don't think to question the choice of certain words in the KJV, especially where the meaning has changed, can be seen as a smear.

A good example can be found in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, where the KJV has rendered the Greek "katecho", by "let", which in our modern usage would mean to "allow". However, the actual Greek meaning is "hinder", which is the complete opposite to what the KJV uses. Our English "let" in Middle English (1642) was used "to hinder, stand in the way of". But it is never used today for such. We have to move on in some, no all, cases.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The modern translation are consistent in translating pneuma as spirit. That's remarkable since pneuma actually means spirit.

Exactly right! </font>[/QUOTE]Both the pastor's have it "exactly wrong" here. Where in Greek do you see, "pneuma actually means spirit"? "Pneuma" was first used by the Greek Philosopher, Anaximen in the 6th century B.C, where he used it for "blast, wind". As we read in John 3:8, "the pneuma (wind) blows where it wills". It is also used for "breath of life" ; "divine inspiration"; even a "living being"; and also "spirit". So, to say "pneuma actually means spirit", is not completly correct, since this meaning of "pneuma" was not the earliest.

In 1590, which was before the KJV, our English word "Ghost" meant, "a person". Before this time, in 1485 it was used for "good spirits", and in 1529, for "evil spirits". In Middle English, "ghost" = "spirit", so the KJV was right to render it as it did, for the time. However, the meaning in Modern English has somewhat changed, and therefore "spirit" is now the accepted reading. Either word is acceptable, since Biblically they both mean the same thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Who is "exactly wrong"? Your post contradicts itself. You start out by saying where does it actually mean spirit and then you conclude by saying it means spirit. Make up your mind.

In the context of the discussion, spirit is the correct translation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Both the pastor's have it "exactly wrong" here. Where in Greek do you see, "pneuma actually means spirit"? "Pneuma" was first used by the Greek Philosopher, Anaximen in the 6th century B.C, where he used it for "blast, wind". As we read in John 3:8, "the pneuma (wind) blows where it wills". It is also used for "breath of life" ; "divine inspiration"; even a "living being"; and also "spirit". So, to say "pneuma actually means spirit", is not completly correct, since this meaning of "pneuma" was not the earliest.

Any Greek lexicon will say what I have said. The issue is not what it meant in the 6th century BC. The issue is not what "ghost" mean whenever. The issue is that pneuma means spirit. There is no reason to be inconsistent. The Holy Spirit inspired one word (pneuma). To use a different word lends to confusion. In our modern day context, "ghost" has a meaning that doesn't really communicate the person of the Holy Spirit. As you rightly say, the language has changed and so "spirit" is the accepted reading. The book has it right.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The modern translation are consistent in translating pneuma as spirit. That's remarkable since pneuma actually means spirit.

Exactly right! </font>[/QUOTE]Both the pastor's have it "exactly wrong" here. Where in Greek do you see, "pneuma actually means spirit"? "Pneuma" was first used by the Greek Philosopher, Anaximen in the 6th century B.C, where he used it for "blast, wind". As we read in John 3:8, "the pneuma (wind) blows where it wills". It is also used for "breath of life" ; "divine inspiration"; even a "living being"; and also "spirit". So, to say "pneuma actually means spirit", is not completly correct, since this meaning of "pneuma" was not the earliest.

In 1590, which was before the KJV, our English word "Ghost" meant, "a person". Before this time, in 1485 it was used for "good spirits", and in 1529, for "evil spirits". In Middle English, "ghost" = "spirit", so the KJV was right to render it as it did, for the time. However, the meaning in Modern English has somewhat changed, and therefore "spirit" is now the accepted reading. Either word is acceptable, since Biblically they both mean the same thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Who is "exactly wrong"? Your post contradicts itself. You start out by saying where does it actually mean spirit and then you conclude by saying it means spirit. Make up your mind.

In the context of the discussion, spirit is the correct translation. </font>[/QUOTE]No, my post does not contradict itself. If you and Larry would care to read what I wrote, you might just see what I mean.

I was picking up on Larry's statement: "pneuma actually means spirit", which in itself is misleading, since even the Biblical usage is not only "spirit", as I showed from John 3:8. I also showed that the meaning when the KJV was written for "ghost" is what our present day "spirit" means. I have yet to come across a Christian who confuses the KJV use of "ghost" with some evil spirit. Even the word "spirit" is used for evil spirits today.

At the end of the day I see no problem with either word, as both mean the same when used in its correct context. As I have said, for Larry to make his statement, with a view that "spirit" is the only correct way to render "pneuma", is complete nonsense. And, for you to agree, is done so blindly.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

The issue is not whether pneuma means something more than just spirit. The issue is that it means spirit and not ghost. It is really pretty simple. Therefore, the question at hand is Spirit or Ghost, and the correct and obvious answer is spirit.

 

[Artimaeus]

Strong's Dictionary: G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

"pneuma" doesn't, by itself, mean spirit. As in, pneumonia and pneumatic, however, the context determines whether it is referring to spirit or wind or air. The vast majority of times it does seems to mean spirit. Which still doesn't make a distinction between "ghost" and "Spirit".

 

[icthus]

Here is something for you guys that think that the KJV is outdated and not a reliable translation. Can you explain the rendering of the Greek of 1 Corinthians 7:1, in the NIV. Check the Greek, and then compare this with the KJV and NIV, and then see who gets this right. I would be interested to hear why the NIV has so very clearly distorted what the Greek says.

 

[robycop3]

Personally, I do NOT use "Holy Ghost" in ordinary conversation because of what "ghost" means to most English speakers now.

In Matthew 14:26 & Mark 6:49, where Jesus is walking upon the water, His disciples thought they were seeing a ghost; they didn't recognize Him. The Greek word used here is "phantasma", which appears nowhere else in Scripture. The KJV renders this as "spirit", while most MVs say "ghost". I believe therein lies the difference in the Greek between the conception of a ghost and the Holy Spirit. Hagios Pneuma has power while phantasma does not.

From what I have learned from reading 16-17th C. British literature besides the AV 1611, it seems that they called every ethereal being a "ghost", with the special name "Holy Ghost" for the Holy Spirit. In fact, the AV is the ONLY work of that time in which I've seen Him also called "Holy Spirit".

The key word is "Holy".

Mr. Betz, you continue to exhibit poor reading comprehension. Please cut-n-paste where I said I believe in ghosts, or admit you were wrong.(I do NOT consider the Holy Spirit to be a ghost in the modern sense, but I consider Him to be a Person of the Holy Trinity, being God along with Yahweh and Jesus.)