Spirit or Ghost?

[KJB1611reader]

I agree that phantoms are not real.

I disagree with calling the Holy Spirit a "Ghost". As you say, phantoms are not real, and in English "ghost" means a phantom. One dictiary says:

"A ghost is the spirit of a dead person that someone believes they can see or feel.
...the ghost of Marie Antoinette.
The village is haunted by the ghosts of the dead children."

In English: Ghost is a personal spirit.

 

[David Lamb]

In English: Ghost is a personal spirit.

The usual meaning of "ghost" in English is a phantom or a spectre.

 

[KJB1611reader]

The usual meaning of "ghost" in English is a phantom or a spectre.

Do we use Bible meanings or secular meanings?

 

[David Lamb]

Do we use Bible meanings or secular meanings?

The bible does have some words in it that are not used in the secular world, words like "propitiation." But the Greek word "phantasma" is a word that is used in both secular settings and in the bible. It means "ghost" in the sense of a spectre or a phantom. The Greek word "pneuma" which is used in the name "Holy Spirit" means "spirit" or "breath." That is its biblical meaning.

 

[KJB1611reader]

The bible does have some words in it that are not used in the secular world, words like "propitiation." But the Greek word "phantasma" is a word that is used in both secular settings and in the bible. It means "ghost" in the sense of a spectre or a phantom. The Greek word "pneuma" which is used in the name "Holy Spirit" means "spirit" or "breath." That is its biblical meaning.

I will not continue this discussion.

 

[David Lamb]

I will not continue this discussion.

That's fine. Thank you for your posts so far.

 

[John of Japan]

Paul Cockrell on August 6, 2016 at 8:30 pm
In the KJV, when the term “Holy Ghost” is used, it refers to a direct visitation/operation of the Holy Spirit. Once the miraculous gifts dies out with the apostles, this no longer was available to Christians who were beginning to have the written word, as miracles were to confirm the word. Once the Gospels and epistles were written and spread throughout the church, there was no need to have these gifts. There are of course varying theological beliefs regarding the indwelling if the Holy Spirit today. That’s not my debate. But Ghost was a “guest” and thus the KJV translators gives us a wonderful too to differentiate between the third part of the Godhead visiting man.

Found this in a comment thread.

The problem with this theory is that "Holy Ghost" (89 verses) is much more common in the Bible than "Holy Spirit" (just 7 verses). Also, "Holy Ghost" occurs from Matthew to Jude, suggesting that it was a normal translation choice for the KJV translators. (Neither term occurs in Revelation.) On the other hand, "Holy Spirit" only occurs seven times in the entire Bible, 3 in the OT and 4 in the NT. The four in the NT are: Luke 11:13, Eph. 1:13 & 4:30, and `1 Thess. 4:8. This suggests that "Holy Spirit" was a rare, idiosyncratic rendering, and "Holy Ghost" was normal for the NT of the KJV. The rendering "Holy Ghost" occurs no times in the KJV OT, suggesting that the teams that translated the OT did not use that term as their normal rendering. On the other hand, since "Holy Spirit" occurs twice in Eph. and "Holy Ghost" occurs not at all in that book, I suggest that the team assigned to Ephesians preferred "Holy Spirit" over "Holy Ghost." So the reason for the difference is not theological, but is a translation choice of the various teams of KJV translators.

Now, if Cockrell is correct that "Holy Ghost" refers to a "direct visitation/operation," that does not explain the use of the term in 1 John 5:7, where it simply states the existence of the Holy Spirit without referring to a "visitation/operation" in regards to humans. On the other hand, in the seven times the term "Holy Spirit" occurs, every single mention is of a "direct visitation/operation" of the Spirit of God. I don't think Cockrell can explain that with his theory. Looks like to me he is just guessing, and didn't do the actual Bible study needed to form his theory.

 

[JD731]

Your arguments are not from Scripture, but from history...or whatever, I'm not really sure.

This morning in my personal devotions I translated a verse into English from John's Gospel. Later I translated six verses from the Hebrew book of Psalms for the Lifeline Japanese Old Testament. I was very blessed. The Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are still alive and full of blessing, because God gave the Scriptures in them.

God did not give His Bible in English, but in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration. That was written in Greek, not English. It is the very rare word theopneustos, "God-breathed," or "the breath of God." So, do you actually believe that God breathed out His word in English, which did not exist in any way, shape or form when the Bible was written?

Peter wrote that "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:21). You apparently disagree with the Word of God, and would rather say, "For the prophecy came not in 1611 by the will of man...."

We Baptists believe in the Bible as the "sole rule of faith and practice." Do you agree with that? If so, then where is "English" in the Bible?? Do you prefer history as per your argument rather than the Word of God?

Finally, you say, "People who speak English are the believers today." This says to me that you are against the Great Commission. You seem to think no one in the world can or should be saved unless they speak English. Is that your view?

I am not sure why you posted thusly with accusations that are not true. God surely moved away from the Hebrew and Greek and you bore testimony to the fact when you said in the same comments that you are translating some Hebrew into the language of Japan. Why did you not just send them a copy of the Hebrew manuscripts? I know the answer. It is because they would not understand them because they cannot read them.

No one in Japan will be interested in your translation except those who have been won to Christ (or who have joined themselves with them) by missionaries or preachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. People do not get saved, except maybe in rare circumstances, by reading a Bible. They get saved by hearing a preacher. Paul did not write one letter to gentiles until gentiles were saved and then he addressed all his letters to the churches and for a stated purpose. The written word seems to be for instruction and edification of Christians.

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

We have been saved. We speak English. God has graciously given us a translation from the apostles words to our words. He has given us his indwelling Spirit to teach us through those words. The professor who teaches that God has given us 150 English language translations with more on the way is a false teacher and is not our friend.

But, hey, John of Japan, I am glad Japan is getting the Bible in their own language after two thousand years and that you have obviously won many of them over your years and I don't want to fight with you. I count you as a friend. Praise God for missionary families. Our church supports many of you.

On a personal note:
I have complete confidence in my KJV. It is the word of God. However, I know it is a translation of God's words given to the original authors. God has not made it easy to know the great deep things but said we must study and work at knowing them. They are for the spiritual mind only, here a little, there a little, line upon line, etc. The words are incredibly precise in my thinking. The originals and the KJV both teach the exact same doctrines but because the words are different comparisons can be made to enhance our study and understanding. I do this all the time and find that those who do not are somewhat prone to some misunderstanding.

One example is Psalm 12. Many KJV only believers think this psalm teaches, preservation concerning the pure words of the scriptures, and I know from my studies that it has nothing to do with the preservation of the words of God although I do believe his words will be preserved. This Psalm is the answer to the prayer in a series of 12 psalms within the song book where the poor and needy are under intense persecution by that man who puffeth at them.

This is a tribulation Psalm and the poor and needy are those of Israel whom God is purifying through 7 fires of his judgement, the exact number of his woes and vials in the last half of the 7 year tribulation that is soon to come upon the whole world. The tool in the hand of God to do this purification is this man who has been doing the puffing.

The answer to these prayers found in the 12 psalms is in Psa 12:5. Here he promises that he will arise and deliver them. This is exactly what the tribulation saints have been praying for. In other places we learn his deliverance is just in the nick of time before they are totally destroyed. He is on the Father's throne until arising to do this deed of salvation for the remnant

I learned this through prayer, personal study, and comparing scripture with other scripture and by help from my Strong's. My use of the original languages has never taught me to doubt my KJV. Praise God for that. Many of these men who are scholars do nothing else but sow doubt and confusion and division and I believe a great number who handled the scriptures so carelessly will finally be proven to be on the side of the enemy, especially the paraphrasers and those who promote them by their silence, and there seems to be nothing they will call the pure word of God except only that which they and a few others can read.

 

[John of Japan]

I am not sure why you posted thusly with accusations that are not true. God surely moved away from the Hebrew and Greek and you bore testimony to the fact when you said in the same comments that you are translating some Hebrew into the language of Japan. Why did you not just send them a copy of the Hebrew manuscripts? I know the answer. It is because they would not understand them because they cannot read them.

Do you actually think people in Japan can read the Bible in English, and don't need their own translation? And I am positive that I did not witness that God is "done with" the Bible in the original languages.

No one in Japan will be interested in your translation except those who have been won to Christ (or who have joined themselves with them) by missionaries or preachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. People do not get saved, except maybe in rare circumstances, by reading a Bible. They get saved by hearing a preacher. Paul did not write one letter to gentiles until gentiles were saved and then he addressed all his letters to the churches and for a stated purpose. The written word seems to be for instruction and edification of Christians.

You are completely wrong. The book of John, for example, is a tract to lead people to Christ (John 20:31). Therefore our people in Japan have handed out over 80,000 Gospels of John or John and Romans, and 1000s of NTs. Yes, soul winners are necessary, but no one gets saved without a Bible. I would think as a KJV advocate you would be delighted that we had produced a Japanese NT for the first time from the Scrivener TR, which reflects the original of the KJV.

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

We have been saved. We speak English. God has graciously given us a translation from the apostles words to our words. He has given us his indwelling Spirit to teach us through those words. The professor who teaches that God has given us 150 English language translations with more on the way is a false teacher and is not our friend.

I am not the professor who teaches what you say. We use the KJV exclusively at our Bible college. And I tell my students that translating the Bible into the languages of the world is far superior to producing another unneeded English translation from the critical text. And I am delighted to be able to teach courses on missionary Bible translation for our MA in Bible translation.

But, hey, John of Japan, I am glad Japan is getting the Bible in their own language after two thousand years and that you have obviously won many of them over your years and I don't want to fight with you. I count you as a friend. Praise God for missionary families. Our church supports many of you.

Glad to hear this.

On a personal note:
I have complete confidence in my KJV. It is the word of God. However, I know it is a translation of God's words given to the original authors. God has not made it easy to know the great deep things but said we must study and work at knowing them. They are for the spiritual mind only, here a little, there a little, line upon line, etc. The words are incredibly precise in my thinking. The originals and the KJV both teach the exact same doctrines but because the words are different comparisons can be made to enhance our study and understanding. I do this all the time and find that those who do not are somewhat prone to some misunderstanding.

I too treasure the KJV, and have compared every verse of the NT to the TR. I recently answered a letter from a concerned father who wanted to make sure of our position. That's fine, and I answered carefully, but the truth is the KJVO movement has distracted fundamentalists for too long from missionary Bible translation, and I said something similar to him.

For example, D. A. Waite of the DBS only supported a couple of missionaries, and one of them was to England, a guy who seemed to spend more time defending the KJV than winning souls to Christ. We don't need to defend the KJV. It is a sword, not a museum piece. We should be attacking the enemy with it, not defending it as so many KJVO folk do.

One example is Psalm 12. Many KJV only believers think this psalm teaches, preservation concerning the pure words of the scriptures, and I know from my studies that it has nothing to do with the preservation of the words of God although I do believe his words will be preserved. This Psalm is the answer to the prayer in a series of 12 psalms within the song book where the poor and needy are under intense persecution by that man who puffeth at them.

This is a tribulation Psalm and the poor and needy are those of Israel whom God is purifying through 7 fires of his judgement, the exact number of his woes and vials in the last half of the 7 year tribulation that is soon to come upon the whole world. The tool in the hand of God to do this purification is this man who has been doing the puffing.

The answer to these prayers found in the 12 psalms is in Psa 12:5. Here he promises that he will arise and deliver them. This is exactly what the tribulation saints have been praying for. In other places we learn his deliverance is just in the nick of time before they are totally destroyed. He is on the Father's throne until arising to do this deed of salvation for the remnant

I learned this through prayer, personal study, and comparing scripture with other scripture and by help from my Strong's. My use of the original languages has never taught me to doubt my KJV. Praise God for that. Many of these men who are scholars do nothing else but sow doubt and confusion and division and I believe a great number who handled the scriptures so carelessly will finally be proven to be on the side of the enemy, especially the paraphrasers and those who promote them by their silence, and there seems to be nothing they will call the pure word of God except only that which they and a few others can read.

You don't really need to convince me of the doctrine of preservation of Scripture. I believe in it.

P. S. We now have a website for our translation at www.lifelinebible.org, and my webmaster is going to upload dozens of my files in Japanese, including tracts, so hopefully we will see Japanese fruit from that.

 

[KJB1611reader]

Do you actually think people in Japan can read the Bible in English, and don't need their own translation? And I am positive that I did not witness that God is "done with" the Bible in the original languages.

You are completely wrong. The book of John, for example, is a tract to lead people to Christ (John 20:31). Therefore our people in Japan have handed out over 80,000 Gospels of John or John and Romans, and 1000s of NTs. Yes, soul winners are necessary, but no one gets saved without a Bible. I would think as a KJV advocate you would be delighted that we had produced a Japanese NT for the first time from the Scrivener TR, which reflects the original of the KJV.

I am not the professor who teaches what you say. We use the KJV exclusively at our Bible college. And I tell my students that translating the Bible into the languages of the world is far superior to producing another unneeded English translation from the critical text. And I am delighted to be able to teach courses on missionary Bible translation for our MA in Bible translation.

Glad to hear this.

I too treasure the KJV, and have compared every verse of the NT to the TR. I recently answered a letter from a concerned father who wanted to make sure of our position. That's fine, and I answered carefully, but the truth is the KJVO movement has distracted fundamentalists for too long from missionary Bible translation, and I said something similar to him.

For example, D. A. Waite of the DBS only supported a couple of missionaries, and one of them was to England, a guy who seemed to spend more time defending the KJV than winning souls to Christ. We don't need to defend the KJV. It is a sword, not a museum piece. We should be attacking the enemy with it, not defending it as so many KJVO folk do.

You don't really need to convince me of the doctrine of preservation of Scripture. I believe in it.

I am very glad there is a Japenese N.T on the right text.

Please pray for China to get a T.R. Bible one day.

Shawn

 

[John of Japan]

I am very glad there is a Japenese N.T on the right text.

Please pray for China to get a T.R. Bible one day.

Shawn

I've heard that there is a project underway, but I have no details.

 

[KJB1611reader]

I've heard that there is a project underway, but I have no details.

There actually is a few Chinese versions out there, its just the need of people to be aware of the issue and the method of bringing them in. Also, most of the people elderly and already accustomed to the Union.

 

[KJB1611reader]

There was some good verions before the Union came out. Anyway, pray.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The KJV refers to the Holy Spirit as both the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. However, no modern English version I know of ever refers to Him as "Ghost".

Now, while "Holy Ghost" was OK in 1611, MODERN usage of the word "ghost" carries something not holy about it. It usually refers to the disembodied spirit of a dead person and to me using it as the name of the Holy Spirit in modern English is less-than-fully-respectful.

WHAT SAYEST THOU?

Roby, personally I don’t care. I was raised up saying Ghost and sometimes I still use it so …

 

[KJB1611reader]

Are there other words we use as Christian that have a different meaning now?

 

[John of Japan]

There actually is a few Chinese versions out there, its just the need of people to be aware of the issue and the method of bringing them in. Also, most of the people elderly and already accustomed to the Union.

I've heard that there is an effort to revise the Union Version to fit the texts of the KJV.

 

[KJB1611reader]

I've heard that there is an effort to revise the Union Version to fit the texts of the KJV.

I have heard too.

Most of the Chinese versions of the A.V. base is of the Union Version.

 

[JD731]

Do you actually think people in Japan can read the Bible in English, and don't need their own translation? And I am positive that I did not witness that God is "done with" the Bible in the original languages.

I am not sure how you missed the point and thought I was advocating for a KJV Bible in Japan, but, okay, I will take the blame for it but I assure you I do not think the Japanese needs an English Bible.

You are completely wrong. The book of John, for example, is a tract to lead people to Christ (John 20:31). Therefore our people in Japan have handed out over 80,000 Gospels of John or John and Romans, and 1000s of NTs. Yes, soul winners are necessary, but no one gets saved without a Bible. I would think as a KJV advocate you would be delighted that we had produced a Japanese NT for the first time from the Scrivener TR, which reflects the original of the KJV.

I am not going to argue this point except to say the NT church had it's beginning in Acts 2 without any NT scriptures and when gentiles were added in Acts 10 the apostles were surprised and in Ephesians 3 it is said to be a mystery only now revealed. and Paul, the revelator of the mystery said God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. He said faith comes by hearing the word of God and when he preached to an audience where no Jews attended in Acts 17 to the Athenians, he did not reference one Bible verse, preaching only what he knew about God's salvation through Christ, and people were saved. The first NT epistle, James, was written in 45 AD, a full 5 years after the door of faith was opened to the gentiles.

I just wanted to show you I was not shooting from the hip when I made those claims. This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture. Paul did not write his first letter until 49 AD (he was saved in 37/38 AD). I think we should believe the words and diligently seek out the context. Having said that, I am not against passing out scripture tracts, We pass out thousands in our area. Nothing wrong with cultivating the field.

I am not the professor who teaches what you say. We use the KJV exclusively at our Bible college. And I tell my students that translating the Bible into the languages of the world is far superior to producing another unneeded English translation from the critical text. And I am delighted to be able to teach courses on missionary Bible translation for our MA in Bible translation.

Praise God.

Glad to hear this.

I too treasure the KJV, and have compared every verse of the NT to the TR. I recently answered a letter from a concerned father who wanted to make sure of our position. That's fine, and I answered carefully, but the truth is the KJVO movement has distracted fundamentalists for too long from missionary Bible translation, and I said something similar to him.

Of our 87 missionaries we support we have had two involved in Bible translations and for their sakes I will not say where.

For example, D. A. Waite of the DBS only supported a couple of missionaries, and one of them was to England, a guy who seemed to spend more time defending the KJV than winning souls to Christ. We don't need to defend the KJV. It is a sword, not a museum piece. We should be attacking the enemy with it, not defending it as so many KJVO folk do.

I am not impressed with many from DTS.

You don't really need to convince me of the doctrine of preservation of Scripture. I believe in it.

P. S. We now have a website for our translation at www.lifelinebible.org, and my webmaster is going to upload dozens of my files in Japanese, including tracts, so hopefully we will see Japanese fruit from that.

I admire good missionary families who spend their lives serving God in difficult places. Thank you for your efforts to Japan.

 

[Ben1445]

This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture. Paul did not write his first letter until 49 AD (he was saved in 37/38 AD). I think we should believe the words and diligently seek out the context.

Jesus said this well before Paul went to the Gentiles.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Paul brought Scripture with him. Sure, he didn’t bring what wasn’t written. But there was still Scripture and it was available in every synagogue where he went. He also brought it with him.

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

The gentiles were also not far away from those Scriptures.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Faith cometh by hearing (the preaching) and hearing by the Word of God (Scripture)

The Word of God is the foundation, not the preaching.

 

[John of Japan]

I am not sure how you missed the point and thought I was advocating for a KJV Bible in Japan, but, okay, I will take the blame for it but I assure you I do not think the Japanese needs an English Bible.

My impression was that you emphasized the English over the languages on the mission fields of the world. There is nothing sacred or special about the English language. I often think and write in Japanese (also not a special language), and this morning I taught a Japanese lady in that language about the Baptist Distinctives. Her husband just graduated from our seminary and is going back to his home country to reach them for Christ. The mission board wanted her to get some training too, so here I am.

I am not going to argue this point except to say the NT church had it's beginning in Acts 2 without any NT scriptures and when gentiles were added in Acts 10 the apostles were surprised and in Ephesians 3 it is said to be a mystery only now revealed. and Paul, the revelator of the mystery said God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. He said faith comes by hearing the word of God and when he preached to an audience where no Jews attended in Acts 17 to the Athenians, he did not reference one Bible verse, preaching only what he knew about God's salvation through Christ, and people were saved. The first NT epistle, James, was written in 45 AD, a full 5 years after the door of faith was opened to the gentiles.

I just wanted to show you I was not shooting from the hip when I made those claims. This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture. Paul did not write his first letter until 49 AD (he was saved in 37/38 AD). I think we should believe the words and diligently seek out the context. Having said that, I am not against passing out scripture tracts, We pass out thousands in our area. Nothing wrong with cultivating the field.

Okay, I see where you are coming from on this. You have a polnt.

Praise God.

Of our 87 missionaries we support we have had two involved in Bible translations and for their sakes I will not say where.

PTL! I'm glad to hear this. IBF churches have gradually waked up to the need for new Bibles on the mission fields of the world. I've dedicated much of my ministry to that cause.

I am not impressed with many from DTS.

DTS? Not sure if you mean DBS here, but there is a link. D. A. Waite got his ThM and ThD from Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS), and founded the Dean Burgon Society (DBS). He's now in Heaven, though, where they don't care about degrees!

I admire good missionary families who spend their lives serving God in difficult places. Thank you for your efforts to Japan.

It's kind of you to say that. I very rarely hear it.