Spirit & Soul

While you are entitled to your opinion, you have not posted one scripture that "DEFIES" my conclusions. You have only accused me of "stringing together some scriptures" to support my ideas.

I did answer your questions, you did not like the answers. I would be happy to continue this discussion, however you need to start posting the scripture that supports your ideas. That has yet to be seen.

I have tried to post a sufficient amount of scripture to support my conclusions and where I did not post the scripture I gave the reference.

Please try refuting the Scriptures that I posted in support of my conclusions about the body/soul/spirit, instead of the assumptions that you have made based on a bias to a certain theological construct (millennial exclusion).

You have continually made statements and posted conclusions in this thread as though we should simply accept your view of salvation when it comes to body/soul/spirit, yet you have not used scripture...only your opinions of what scripture says.

I have done very little interpretation in my posts, I have mostly just posted the scripture and asked for your refutation of the words from "the BOOK."

Unless you are willing to engage on this level, and with these requests, I don't know if we can continue.

Max

 

That is untrue. Go back and re-read either my last post or the post before that one. I said Hebrews 10, I Peter 1 and James 1 all contradict your claim that our soul is currently saved and not in need of anything else.

No sir you did not answer my questions. I can re-post them if you like or you can go back and re-read them, but you did not answer the questions that I laid out.

Again that is incorrect and has been addressed.

Well if you knew me, which you don't (and I don't know why people act like they know a person when they don't know anything about the person), you would know that I held to the body, soul and spirit beliefs before I was ever instroduced to the Word of the Kingdom (millennial exclusion as you call it). So for you to accuse me of holding certain views to make a certain theology work is way off base.

Again that is absolutely false.

Why is it that I have to answer all your questions, but you can skate around mine?

Again your conclusion defies the simplest of Scripture. Scripture tells us that man can not understand God because God's Word is spiritually discerned. That means man's spirit must be made alive so that man can understand the spirit. Yet you say that it is the soul that is saved first, but according to Scripture man can't even begin to understand Scripture until his spirit is saved. So I don't know why you need more refuting than that right there. From the first step out of the box your conclusions defy Scripture. Or maybe you don't see that verse of Scripture the same way?

 

Soul and spirit are used interchangeably many times in the Bible. However, sometimes there is a distinction between the two. I gave my whole self to Christ and what He does with each part is in His authority and I'm fine with that.
1 Thess. 5:23 says..Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, peircing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Taken in context, only God can discern thoughts and intents of the heart and only God can separate the soul and spirit.

 

Correction: 1John 5:13 tells us there is the KNOW SO of salvation. "Hope" in the NT means promise.

Are you OSAS or not?

Sure the soul is saved! You are confusing the process of sanctification with the promise of salvation. Salvation is a "process" as you are pointing out. "Phase #1" is justification of the soul (your spirit) immediately! Justification means that all the rest of the process WILL be accomplished in you by God. You can't be justified and later lost!

"Phase #2" is sanctification -- the Holy Spirit living in your spirit growing you into the image of Christ, "Who [HS] shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body [at the rapture], according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Phil 3:23

Phase #3 is glorification at the rapture. Once the process is begun with justification, there is ABSOLUTELY NO question of the outcome!

Huh??

Oh contrare'!! That is precisely why the mind, emotions, and will ARE in the spirit. You see, our mind must be renewed daily or these bad things will happen. We don't need to get saved daily (our soul/conscience) -- we need to be mentally and emotionally renewed daily.

Absolutely!! We live in the temple of God, right? The same body Jesus had. Would you say His body was "glorified" on the earth? Wait -- look at scripture before you answer -- John 17:22-23. And it is obvious you didn't read 1Cor 15:29-41. Had you done so, you would be inquiring about "terrestrial glory" and the new "body as it hath pleased God" to give us.

Paul does not teach on "terrestrial glory" in Ephesians, dear.

In out spirits, of course we war with the flesh. But we have also the Holy Spirit like Christ did, dwelling in our "earthen [corruptible] vessel."

Are you saying you aren't a Christian?

He did not have His glory that was from heaven. However, ALL people glow -- even Moses from Sinai -- when the come from the presence of God. But Christ appeared MANY times to 500+ disciples (1Cor 15:4-8), not shining in glory because He had not come direct from God's presence!

Wrong. Like the shekinah glory in the Holy of holies, we have the glory of the Holy Spirit in us surrounded by a "goat hair" tabernacle called "the flesh," if you please.

1Thes 4:17 -- "and there shall we ever be with the Lord." I think it is going to come as a shock to some Christians that we will be spending the MK in NJ -- in heaven -- and only then come down in NJ to the earth for the "8th day" of creation, eternity.

Oh, contrare' again! I think you recognize that much of what I am "espousing" has not been thought of by the church to any great degree. Nevertheless, I have scripture on my side and will gladly show you specifically where I get my thoughts from.

skypair

 

Actually 'Hope' in the NT means "EXPECTATION" as in you are expecting something


Faith is the substance of things "hoped" for (or expected) and the evidence of things not seen.

Allan's version:
Our expectation of those things we have placed Faith into is the visible evidence of what they can't see or know about.

 

Jump, this is TOTALLY unfair!! Rather than accuse him of poor scholarship and less than honorable motives, you need to show what scrpture you have that negates his view.

What's saved and How -- Just as in the fall, so it is with the redemption. Adam died in his soul immediately (cut off from God), he died in his spirit progressively (led by own mind, emotions, and will), and he died in his flesh eventually. In "last Adam" we are redeemed in like manner -- justified in Christ, we receive relationship immediately and eternally. Sanctified in the Spirit, we are led progressively by the Spirit. Glorified in the flesh, we will live with God eventually.

When -- beginning when we receive Christ as Savior (1Cor 15:1-4).

skypair

 

jump,

This is an excellent example of what max and I are trying to tell you -- 1) you didn't use scripture and 2) like most of "Christendom," in order to come to your conclusion, you lump the spirit and soul together.

skypair

 

Allan has already addressed this, but hope does not mean promise. Promise means promise. Hope means that it is expected, but it's not a guarantee that it will happen.

Yes.

Please show me Scripture where is says the soul is already saved and is in need of nothing and then explain to me how that meshes with Hebrews 10, James 1 and I Peter one, which all three say the soul is not currently saved.

Again please show me with Scripture where it says that your soul is what is justified at the moment you believe on the Lord Jesus.

So you can just will yourself from Point A and end up at Point B as Jesus did. Man I must have been skipped over on the glorified body. Skypair there is not Sriptural evidence that you are no living in your glorified body.

You just said we were in our glorified bodies. Which is it? Are we in our glorified bodies or are we in our corruptible bodies? They aren't the same thing.

How in the world would you come to that conclusion?

That is true, but that wasn't the glory being spoken of I believe. I believe the glory spoken of was an outer glory, which we do not currently have.

Sorry, but that doesn't prove your point at all. That just says that those that the text was addressed to, which isn't all Christians by the way, shall be with the Lord. It doesn't say anything about residing in heaven for all eternity.

Well I haven't seen any yet.

Not totally unfair at all. I asked him some simple questions that he said he would answer. Instead of answering the questions he just throws out some verses and says look at these verses they connect with each other.

Again I have asked how yours and his view mesh with three Scriptures in particular that say our souls are not currently saved, but neither one of you have addressed them.

Please show Scripture that backs up this statement.

And neither did you. Look just above this to my previous statement.

I lump the spirit and the soul together that's just comical. I have repeatedly said that our soul and spirit are separate. I have been ridiculed for my stance on the spirit and soul being separate and you say that I lump them together. That's just funny. Please show one place where I said the spirit and the soul are the same thing or lumped together.

 

How can something be expected to happen if it is not gaurenteed!

If my son is expecting me to pick him it is because he has a gaurentee from me he will be picked up.

If there is no gaurentee then he is not expecting but wishing I will do what I said I will do.

 

Expectation is not equal to guarantee. If it is guaranteed then it is a promise. Expectations are things that should happen, but are not guaranteed. I expect that my wife will make it home this afternoon from work, but there is a possibility that she will not.

I expect my son to obey when he is asked to do something, but he doesn't always do it.

And in your example there is no guarantee that you will pick him up. What if you are in a car accident? Going to be kind of hard to pick him up if you are in the back of an ambulance heading to the hospital don't you think? Now the likely hood of you being in an accident is not very good, but it is a real possibility.

A hope as you said is an expectation, but not a guarantee. The Bible is full of evidence that not everyone's hope will be met.

 

True about man not being able to keep our end of the bargin at times within the paradigm of what is expected. And thus we wishfully hope we will not be disappointed.

However God is not man, and what Gods says we can expect to happen, or do you not agree. Faith is the substance of things expected... Expected from who?? God. And if God are we to assume that He is not able to do that which He stated and we place our faith into?? God forbid, brother!

If our Hope is in Christ who is God and God never lied then all we trust, expect, or have confidence in Him for is ASSURED.

 

What is happening it seems is that you are placing the hope within the realm of eternal salvation (and a lot of Christendom does that), but that's not what the hope is in regard to. Eternal (spiritual) salvation is not a hope, but a promised gift.

The hope is linked to ruling and reigning in the coming kingdom with Christ the Lord of lords and the King of kings. However we must be found qualified, and the Bible tells us that not all Christians are going to receive that hope not because God is flawed, but because man didn't do what was required of him.

That's an extremely brief look at the matter, but maybe it clears up where I am coming from.

 

There is also clear evidence, as posted in my last post that the "spirit" is not fully saved yet. The "spirit" is quickened at the point of the new birth so that it is once again capable of understanding the things of God, and yeilding to the influences of the Holy Spirit(1 Cor. 2). There is a continual washing away (by the word of God) of the sins of the spirit (2 Cor. 7). Our mind and our will are shaped or renewed daily(Eph. 4) as we yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8). This is the process of daily sanctification.

As to the "body," it is not yet saved. One day it will be...when it is made in incorruption and immortality (1 Cor. 15). It is presently still ruled by death (Rom. 7). It is to be brought under subjection daily, so as not to yield to the lust or motions of sin (Rom. 7) and the lust of the flesh (1 John 2). The body awaits salvation and the ultimate glorification when we "shall be like him" (1 John 3).

As to the "soul" it is the new man/new creature created in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5, Eph. 2 & 4, Col. 3). The soul (creature/creation) is what man became when God created Adam (Gen. 1) and the soul (new creature) is what man now becomes in Christ. The soul is positionally in Christ, seated together in heavenly places (Eph. 2). The soul/new man is created in "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4) and is therefore sinless (1 John 3). This is posible by the operation of God called spiritual circumcision (Col. 2) that separates the soul from the spirit and body (Heb. 4) freeing the soul from the bondage of fleshly and spiritual sins.


Once again, I post this as my response to your questions that I supposedly did not answer. You asked me about the very basics (who, what , when, how) of the salvation of the body/soul/spirit. That is exactly what I did... however you continue to deny that.

You then accused me of throwing together some scriptures to create my own reality...nice!

What the scriptures that I put together DO, is PROVE the true biblical definition of the spirit. From this definition one can begin to understand the differences in the tripartite man and how each relates to God and his free gift of salvation.

You have neglected to address the scriptures that define the spirit as the "mind, will, and emotions" and you maintain that it is the soul. You have not defended this with scripture yet.

Please show me why you reject the Biblical definition of the spirit (Mind, will, emotion) and exchange it for the soul. This is where we have a disagreement.

Max

 

I know very well MKE and do not agree at all with it. So with that in mind I do know where you are coming from.

But hope in God for whatever is still hope in God no matter where you find scripture speaking of it. And no that hope is not ONLY linked to the Coming Kingdom of Christ as in Christ we are qualified because we ARE Justified, Sanctified, and Glorified. If you will note these in the scripture are all past tense and therefore a completed fact. These are not subject to only one aspect of us but they are imparted to us on the whole.
Just as Amy stated the verse:

Christ left nothing to chance as nothing without Him is profitable. So to say one has Christ but not the fruits of one who has Christ misunderstands all that Christ has done and imparted to us - The Son's of God and partakers of the heirship of Christ. Or did God lie?

 

Once again, just for the record, here is the Biblical definition showing the spirit to be the "mind, will, and emotions."

1. MIND

The spirit of man = the mind of man
The Spirit of God = the mind of Christ

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The spirit is again linked to the mind in...

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


2. WILL

The spirit is clearly linked to the will...

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

3. EMOTIONS

The spirit is seemingly linked to the emotions...

Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

Act 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

Allan let's just take the Scripture you quoted, because this one right here alone disproves your point:

1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your didn't bold the right key word. The key word is may. That means it may happen and it may not. Sanctify is an optative, which means the action is desired, but doubtful that it will happen.

And that goes right in line with the rest of Scripture that says there will be more that miss the kingdom than there are that rule and reign in the kingdom.

As much as people want to deny this Truth it is spread throughout Scripture, OT and NT alike.

You are not automatically qualified. If you were there wouldn't be any need to grow. The only reason you would be left here is so that you could tell others about salvation by grace through faith, but we know that's not the only reason we are here. We are not a finished product.

 

Again just because you can show a verse here and there doesn't make it the Biblical definition. Does the spirit have a will, yes it does. It desires to do the right thing because it has been passed from darkness into the light. It has passed from death unto life.

Our spirit is what communes with God, not our soul as you and skypair suggest. God's essences is Spirit, not Soul. Therefore our spirits must be made alive so that we can understand God, not our souls be made alive so that we can understand God.

I Corinthians 2 says that the natural (soulical) man can not understand the things of God. And it tells us why. Becuase they are spiritually discerned.

Our spirit can't be in the "process" of being saved or we wouldn't be able to understand what it was that needed to be done in order to complete that process.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Adam and Eve died soulically. Their ability to relate to the physical world was never taken away.

I guess you could say it like this. The spirit contains a will that is new, but the soul contains the old will. It is this old will that we are to die to moment by moment and day by day.

Again I have said this three times now and neither you nor skypair have addressed this. If the soul is already saved, and there is nothing else left, then why does Hebrews 10, James 1 and I Peter 1 tell us that the soul is not completely saved?

 

Max,

Let me say this having again gone back and looked over your definitions and the Scripture that you have provided. It seems as though what you have done is drawn wrong salvical conclusions from these definitions.

Again I find no Scripture evidence that the soul is in a finished, saved state. I actually find the opposite.

I find no Scripture that says the spirit is lacking in anything necessary for salvation. Again the conclusions that you have drawn are totally backwards of what the Scriptural picture of salvation is and what the purpose of salvation is.

You did, if I remember correctly, post a Scripture in which you thought the spirit was lacking, so I will go back and look at it again. But the problem that we are having is that you have not completely answered my questions and so we are trying to dicuss step five, when I don't even know where you are coming from on step 1. I know some of where you are coming from, but that's why I asked you those questions to get further clarification, which I still have not received.

 

JJump,

Please understand that I have not once disagreed with you as to the spirit being quickened at the new birth. I do agree about this scriptural fact. However, the scripture is also clear that the spirit is still capable of sin (1 Cor. 2). The reason that this is significant is because of the beautiful parallel taught in the scripture about the "first Adam" and "last Adam."

Before the fall...the first Adam...

Man is completely acceptable before God. Able to commune with him in the spirit, not guilty of any fleshly or spiritual sins. Completely innocent of any wrong, and therefore he is a perfect creature. However, he has the capability of sinning. How? By making a willful, thoughtful choice. This was done, according to the biblical definition, by his spirit. The result was death.

The spirit died immediately. No communion with God.
The soul died immediately. No longer the perfect creature and separated from God.
The body died latter as a result of the sin.


Now after the fall... The Last Adam... Jesus Christ...

At the new birth...

The spirit is quickened. Able to commune with God once again, able to understand the things of God once again, Yet still capable of sin. But now having the ability to yield to the Holy Spirit to become perfected in holiness (2 Cor. 7)

The soul is given a new life. The life of Christ (Gal. 2). It becomes a new creature and therefore acceptable and justified in the sight of God. Just as he originally intended. It is sinless, becuase it is in Christ (Eph. 2, 1 John 3).

The body awaits its redemption and restoration, yet is promised to recieve one even beter that is incorruptible. It is currently still capable of sin and mustbe brought into subjection to the spirit daily as the spirit yeilds itself to the Holy Spirit daily.


It is a beautiful parallel Between the first Adam and Last Adam. It is a beautiful display of God's work of restoration to his original intent.

Thanks,

Max

PS - I don't see the soul as still in need of anything from the passages that you gave...please elaborate with specific scriptures from those passages.

 

I see no Scriptural evidence that the soul died or in need of being made alive. If so please present it.

I do agree with your conclusions of body and spirit. The spirit died and is in need of being made alive. But you suggest that the spirit is made partially alive and then needs to grow to become fully alive, but that's not the way Scripture puts it.

Again there is no Scriptural evidence that the soul is given new life. We have the life of Christ that can be manifested through our members if we die to our self (which is our fleshly lusts, and our souls (desire/agenda).

Scripture says if you will save your life (soul - same Greek word) now then you will lose it in the age to come. If you lose your life (soul) now you will find life in the age to come.

So by your definition of soul one can lose their salvation. But that is an impossibility, so just one more reason why your definition of the salvation of the soul won't work.

It doesn't say the soul becomes a new creature. Again the new creation has to do with not being a Jew or Greek. You are a new creation in Christ. Where you once were a Gentile with no God, now you are a part of the one new man in Christ that is tied to Christ so that you can now accept or reject the same message that was delievered to the nation of Israel. If you were still a Gentile then that would be impossible, because all earthly and spiritual blessings must flow through the seed of Abraham. As a Gentile you are not a part of the seed of Abraham.

If the soul is sinless then why are we told to lose our soul in order to have life in the age to come?

PS - I don't see the soul as still in need of anything from the passages that you gave...please elaborate with specific scriptures from those passages.

Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The saving of the soul is not completed action.

James 1:21 - Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

Why would James tell saved folks, whose souls are saved in your view, that they need to receive the word implanted which is able to save something that is already saved?

I Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Faith is not over. We have to continue to have faith until the end. If we do our souls will be saved. They aren't saved yet.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul? So by your definition of the salvation of the soul one can lose their salvation, but that is an impossibility.