Spiritual body of all true believers?

[Dr. Walter]

I agree with your analysis on the distinction and cause and effect relationship between justification and progressive sanctification. However, there is also sanctification found in the perfect passive participle (I Cor. 1:2 "sanctified") that relates to the Spirit's work of regeneration as well as positional sanctification by justification (2 Thes. 2:13). In the latter two cases it simply means a "setting apart" by the Spirit of God through regeneration in regard to your person and through justification in regard to your position.

It was nice conversing and hopefully we will pick this up again later when some others provide some imput. Thanks

Again, thank you for the time and effort. I know how wearisome this kind of exchange can be.

I hope you have been refreshed after your rest.

For now (at least on my part) I believe there are sufficient Scripture and varied interpretations thereof for folks to read and digest.

Perhaps at some later time this subject and the others we have debated can be renewed after the consideration of the scriptures and views presented. Hopefully others will join in.

Again, I appreciate your in-depth knowledge of the Scripture and your willingness to interact but especially for your desire for the correct interpretation of the doctrines concerning "the Church(es) of God'.

My last word is that I do distinguish between justification, sanctification and our final glorification by God as His children in the resurrection.

I see sanctification as an extension of intial justification, distinct but not separate from it.
Sometimes these elements are blurred or even overlapping (or so it seems, such as in 1 Timothy 2:15) in the Scripture but always connected.


HankD

 

[saturneptune]

Dr. Walter,
To clear up some of your posts, you are making several divisions among the saved, it seems. One would be "living inside and outside the city." Then you make the division between those "who bring honor to the saved and the saved," "church membership and the Lambs Book of Life," and "the Bride and the saved." It is almost like two types, the saved and the super saved.

I guess my question until I understand you better is, who is the Bride, those who are ruling the saved, and those who live in the city? Who are these people today here on earth vs the ones that are just saved? It is my sincere hope you are not in any manner equating the Bride to a modern day in American local Baptist church roll.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter,
To clear up some of your posts, you are making several divisions among the saved, it seems. One would be "living inside and outside the city." Then you make the division between those "who bring honor to the saved and the saved," "church membership and the Lambs Book of Life," and "the Bride and the saved." It is almost like two types, the saved and the super saved.

I guess my question until I understand you better is, who is the Bride, those who are ruling the saved, and those who live in the city? Who are these people today here on earth vs the ones that are just saved? It is my sincere hope you are not in any manner equating the Bride to a modern day in American local Baptist church roll.

No, I am not makings those divisions - the Scriptures are. Revelation 21 explicitly states there are "saved" living outside the new Jerusalem on the new earth. They are a lower class of saved because they are ruled over by others.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. - Rev. 21:24


In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. - Rev. 22:2


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. - Rev. 2:7

There are guests invited to the Marraige supper in Rev. 19:8. The Bride is never invited to the marriage supper she is the one being honored.

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Not all the saved are in the bride, not all the saved are in the city, not all the saved have right to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Hence, the distinction is not about salvation as the are all equally "saved."

 

[saturneptune]

You still fail to answer the question. Who on earth today is the bride, those inside the city, and those who rule? Those on your local church roll? Those who agree with your interpretation of Scripture? How about those with perfect attendance pins for 73 years? I think we could make a movie out of this. Salvation Plus Part 2: The Works. If I recall my basic religion classes in college, it seems the Mormons have some type of levels of heaven concept.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You still fail to answer the question. Who on earth today is the bride, those inside the city, and those who rule? Those on your local church roll? Those who agree with your interpretation of Scripture? How about those with perfect attendance pins for 73 years? I think we could make a movie out of this. Salvation Plus Part 2: The Works. If I recall my basic religion classes in college, it seems the Mormons have some type of levels of heaven concept.

The present day bride ("say" - Rev. 22:17) is the aggregate of New Testament churches in their unglorified state (Rev. 22:16; 2 Cor. 11:2). The future glorified bride (Rev. 19:6-7) is composed of only saved persons who characteristically served Christ faithfully through New Testament churches.

New Testament churches are churches that preach the same gospel, administer the same baptism and teach how to observe the same faith and order and reproduce after their own kind until Jesus comes again. They are found in the pages of the New Testament and are found under degrading names in history where their true belief and practices have been distorted and perverted by their enemies. The only name in history that has characterized them is the name their sacramentalist enemies gave them "Anabaptists."

 

[saturneptune]

The present day bride ("say" - Rev. 22:17) is the aggregate of New Testament churches in their unglorified state (Rev. 22:16; 2 Cor. 11:2). The future glorified bride (Rev. 19:6-7) is composed of only saved persons who characteristically served Christ faithfully through New Testament churches.

New Testament churches are churches that preach the same gospel, administer the same baptism and teach how to observe the same faith and order and reproduce after their own kind until Jesus comes again. They are found in the pages of the New Testament and are found under degrading names in history where their true belief and practices have been distorted and perverted by their enemies. The only name in history that has characterized them is the name their sacramentalist enemies gave them "Anabaptists."

I actually agree with some of your points. I do believe that there has been a reminant from the book of Acts to now that preserves the New Testement Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church is automatically eliminated (along with Eastern Orthodox) because of the nonsense of their doctrine. Logic says that it also eliminates the mainline Protestant denominations, as they were formed in the 1500s or so, plus most of them practice pseudo Baptism, as you have pointed out. The later nut case denominations such as the Church of Christ and the like with their Baptism and salvation link make it quite obvious that they are not a NT church (to be kind).

Using that, by the process of elimination, one might conclude that some form of Baptist line is the reminant, or at least a group of like faith and order. Some problems arise here. First of all, there is no firm evidence for such a succession, only indirect evidence. Also, as you can see from this board, Baptists are all over the map with respect to the Lords Supper, evangelism, missions, elder rule, Calvinism, Landmarkism, and now, even some accepting alien baptisms. So it begs the original question, which stripe of Baptist (we are not a denomination) in America today is the preserved NT church.

I understand your posts better after rereading them. Yes, some of the saved will rule, and one would think there is a good case to be made of them coming from that true NT church of which you mention. The question remains, who is it?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The answer to your question "who is it" is not difficult to answer if you agree to some basic principles.

1. There are absolute non-negotiable essential doctrine and practices in Scripture versus relatively non-essential doctrines where there is room to differ.

2. The Great Commission provides a non-negotiable framework of essentials to be recognized as a true Church of Christ.

I believe there are three principles to defined the beliefs and practices that must be regarded as non-negotiables and all churches that compromise or violate these non-negotiables are apostate churches.

A. Every doctrine and practice the scriptures by clear express statement or necessary inference demand is non-negotiable (e.g. Gal. 1:8-9; Jn. 3:3; Lk. 12:3; 3 Jn.9-11; etc.)

B. Every doctine and practice that is essential to distinguish Biblical Christianity from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity and its doctrines.

C. Every doctrine and practice that is essential to preserve the previous two prinicples until the end of the age (inspiration, preservation and final authority of the Scriptures for truth; The Great Commission discipleship process to progate the truth; the New Testament church as the pillar and ground of the truth).

The Great Commission definition of a disciple defines three essentials of all New Testament Churches. They are a plural "ye" that preach the SAME gospel, administer the SAME baptism and teach the SAME faith and order once delivered by Christ in this commission who have been produced by such and reproduce such.

Therefore, relatively minor differnces concerning wine or grape juice in the Lord's Supper, close or closed communion, end time views, washing feet, women's position, etc. do not affect the essential character of true churches of Christ.

I actually agree with some of your points. I do believe that there has been a reminant from the book of Acts to now that preserves the New Testement Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church is automatically eliminated (along with Eastern Orthodox) because of the nonsense of their doctrine. Logic says that it also eliminates the mainline Protestant denominations, as they were formed in the 1500s or so, plus most of them practice pseudo Baptism, as you have pointed out. The later nut case denominations such as the Church of Christ and the like with their Baptism and salvation link make it quite obvious that they are not a NT church (to be kind).

Using that, by the process of elimination, one might conclude that some form of Baptist line is the reminant, or at least a group of like faith and order. Some problems arise here. First of all, there is no firm evidence for such a succession, only indirect evidence. Also, as you can see from this board, Baptists are all over the map with respect to the Lords Supper, evangelism, missions, elder rule, Calvinism, Landmarkism, and now, even some accepting alien baptisms. So it begs the original question, which stripe of Baptist (we are not a denomination) in America today is the preserved NT church.

I understand your posts better after rereading them. Yes, some of the saved will rule, and one would think there is a good case to be made of them coming from that true NT church of which you mention. The question remains, who is it?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I looked for the follow up post that I made but could not find it. If you really want to thoroughly understand my position then read the introduction and first three chapters in this online book:

http://s.webstarts.com/victorybaptistchurch/uploads/In_Search_of_New_Testament_Churches2.pdf

You will not have any questions concerning what I believe after reading this material. It presents it in a very logical consequential fashion.

The answer to your question "who is it" is not difficult to answer if you agree to some basic principles.

1. There are absolute non-negotiable essential doctrine and practices in Scripture versus relatively non-essential doctrines where there is room to differ.

2. The Great Commission provides a non-negotiable framework of essentials to be recognized as a true Church of Christ.

I believe there are three principles to defined the beliefs and practices that must be regarded as non-negotiables and all churches that compromise or violate these non-negotiables are apostate churches.

A. Every doctrine and practice the scriptures by clear express statement or necessary inference demand is non-negotiable (e.g. Gal. 1:8-9; Jn. 3:3; Lk. 12:3; 3 Jn.9-11; etc.)

B. Every doctine and practice that is essential to distinguish Biblical Christianity from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity and its doctrines.

C. Every doctrine and practice that is essential to preserve the previous two prinicples until the end of the age (inspiration, preservation and final authority of the Scriptures for truth; The Great Commission discipleship process to progate the truth; the New Testament church as the pillar and ground of the truth).

The Great Commission definition of a disciple defines three essentials of all New Testament Churches. They are a plural "ye" that preach the SAME gospel, administer the SAME baptism and teach the SAME faith and order once delivered by Christ in this commission who have been produced by such and reproduce such.

Therefore, relatively minor differnces concerning wine or grape juice in the Lord's Supper, close or closed communion, end time views, washing feet, women's position, etc. do not affect the essential character of true churches of Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

I get a message saying the page does not exist. I really want to read it, because, according to you, the ones in authority or ruling or living in the city are present day Baptists or those of like faith and order. Since there are many, many Baptist groups, I want to see which one you have come to the conclusion is the real NT church. From your above description, you have excluded all the Baptist groups that do not use missionaries or evangelism. It also seems you have excluded those Baptist associations that are accepting alien baptisms for membership, and from your list, local Baptist churches or groups that practice open communion. You did not address those Baptist churches that have adopted a reform or Calvinistic doctrine.

Non-negotiables vs negotiables as you phrase it vary from person to person. I really fail to understand why a Christian indwelt with the Holy Spirit finds it necessary to quote another flawed mortal's opinion of what the Bible says. (usually a dead theologean)

 

[HankD]

I get a message saying the page does not exist. I really want to read it, because, according to you, the ones in authority or ruling or living in the city are present day Baptists or those of like faith and order. Since there are many, many Baptist groups, I want to see which one you have come to the conclusion is the real NT church. From your above description, you have excluded all the Baptist groups that do not use missionaries or evangelism. It also seems you have excluded those Baptist associations that are accepting alien baptisms for membership, and from your list, local Baptist churches or groups that practice open communion. You did not address those Baptist churches that have adopted a reform or Calvinistic doctrine.

Non-negotiables vs negotiables as you phrase it vary from person to person. I really fail to understand why a Christian indwelt with the Holy Spirit finds it necessary to quote another flawed mortal's opinion of what the Bible says. (usually a dead theologean)

Try the following:

http://s2.webstarts.com/victorybaptistchurch/uploads/In_Search_of_New_Testament_Churches2.pdf

then wait to give the server time to upload the .pdf document.

It is 300 plus pages and takes a couple of minutes, you will have a blank screen until it uploads.

HankD

 

[Dr. Walter]

The same guy has an excellent book on the Bride of Christ that explains my position to the "T" at the following website:

http://s2.webstarts.com/victorybaptistchurch/uploads/BrideWeb.pdf

I get a message saying the page does not exist. I really want to read it, because, according to you, the ones in authority or ruling or living in the city are present day Baptists or those of like faith and order. Since there are many, many Baptist groups, I want to see which one you have come to the conclusion is the real NT church. From your above description, you have excluded all the Baptist groups that do not use missionaries or evangelism. It also seems you have excluded those Baptist associations that are accepting alien baptisms for membership, and from your list, local Baptist churches or groups that practice open communion. You did not address those Baptist churches that have adopted a reform or Calvinistic doctrine.

Non-negotiables vs negotiables as you phrase it vary from person to person. I really fail to understand why a Christian indwelt with the Holy Spirit finds it necessary to quote another flawed mortal's opinion of what the Bible says. (usually a dead theologean)

 

[saturneptune]

This is a good example of what I am talking about. First of all, this thread is not a Calvin-free will debate thread, just an example relating to the subject of the thread. I stay out of the subject as much as possible, because it is just spinning wheels.

However, there are those, and on this board, that would tell you that a New Testement church must have as one of its Biblical elements reformed theology. Personally, the issue is not an essential, but to some it is. So even after reading the article, I ask one more time, which group of Baptist or of like order are the ones on earth today who will rule or live inside the Holy City?

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is a good example of what I am talking about. First of all, this thread is not a Calvin-free will debate thread, just an example relating to the subject of the thread. I stay out of the subject as much as possible, because it is just spinning wheels.

However, there are those, and on this board, that would tell you that a New Testement church must have as one of its Biblical elements reformed theology. Personally, the issue is not an essential, but to some it is. So even after reading the article, I ask one more time, which group of Baptist or of like order are the ones on earth today who will rule or live inside the Holy City?

I have answered this question on the other thread subject regeneration before faith. Depending on how they defined Reformed Theology and what elements they are referring to may be true or may be false. Certainly the reformed doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works found in the life of the justified is an essential to be a true N.T. Church as the only other is the "accursed" position of justification by works. Other than that particular element there is no other "Reformed" theology that is necessary to be a true N.T. Church.