"Spiritual Formation"

[FlyForFun]

Mysticism always undermines doctrine because it places experience above objective truth. The usual definition of mysticism is union with God with no intermediaries. The medieval monks had 3 levels to go through to find union with God (see "The Cloud of Unknowing" which I've read). It is esoteric garbage.

Thomas Keating, Thomas Merton and others who have influenced this modern mystical movement believed in meditating with Buddhists and Hindus and thought the Buddhists and Hindus had spiritual insight and wisdom. Keating says the goal is to be with God in the state where subject and object disappear. IOW, there is no distinction between you and God. This is not Christianity - it is an Eastern religious worldview.

Exactly right. I was teaching an Adult Sunday School class when one of the participants (a proponent of SF) exclaimed, "This is not propositional! The gospel is about relationship!"

I replied, "You can't have 'relationship' without knowledge, and the closer you are, the more you know..."

Oy.

I have an article on it here:
http://christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_ContemplativePrayer1.html

Excellent articles. Read and heed.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Good to keep this warning sounding. People are happy with a Sovereign God as long as He is not sovereign over their salvation.

People are happy with teaching in the churches, as long as its not strict Bible teaching.

Sola Scriptura! If they do not speaking according to the Law and the Testimony, it's because there is no light in them.

RB

 

[Johnv]

There are a lot of myths surrounding the emergent church model. First of all, occultic mysticism is not a facet of the emergent church. Prayer and meditation, however, is. Since prayer and meditation are scripturally encouraged, this should be a nonissue.

Second, on the issue of spiritual formation, every church, whether emergent or not, should be engaging in spiritual formation. If one does not allow himself to be formed spiritually, he stands the chance of being formed carnally.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

There are a lot of myths surrounding the emergent church model. First of all, occultic mysticism is not a facet of the emergent church. Prayer and meditation, however, is. Since prayer and meditation are scripturally encouraged, this should be a nonissue.

Second, on the issue of spiritual formation, every church, whether emergent or not, should be engaging in spiritual formation. If one does not allow himself to be formed spiritually, he stands the chance of being formed carnally.

Way too simplistic my friend. The emergent church is doing alot of the things desribed here. Pretty weak doctrinally...if they still even believe in truth.

Spiritually formed? All I have seen is doctrinal deformity coming from this spiritual formation.

Sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo.

Bring out the text of Scripture please.

 

[Johnv]

No disrespect intended, ReformedBaptist, but I suspect your exposure to emergent churches is limited. Dismissing a church simply because it calls itself "emergent" is like the early Lutherans dismissing stained glass windows because they were "too catholic".

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No disrespect intended, ReformedBaptist, but I suspect your exposure to emergent churches is limited. Dismissing a church simply because it calls itself "emergent" is like the early Lutherans dismissing stained glass windows because they were "too catholic".

I think that's a good assumption, but its untrue. Ran around those circles for some time.

How about a doctrinal statement from the emergent movement/church. Pick anyone..let's look at it.

 

[Johnv]

How about a doctrinal statement from the emergent movement/church. Pick anyone..let's look at it.

Hmmm, well, my church is an emergent church, and our statement of faith and practice is as follows:

• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One God - [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]We believe in one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One Savior [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His sinless life, His vicarious, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension and second coming in glory.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One Bible [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]– We believe in the Bible (both the Old and New Testaments) as the inspired and infallible word of God.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Fall of Man [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe man was created good and upright, however, man, by voluntary transgression, fell and therefore incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Salvation of Man [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Resurrection of Believers and Non Believers[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]-Believers into everlasting life and non believers to everlasting punishment[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Baptism [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- The outward sign of the inward change in a life through salvation in Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Holy Spirit [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit who enables a believer to live a holy life.[/FONT]

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Hmmm, well, my church is an emergent church, and our statement of faith and practice is as follows:

• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One God - [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]We believe in one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One Savior [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His sinless life, His vicarious, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension and second coming in glory.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]One Bible [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]– We believe in the Bible (both the Old and New Testaments) as the inspired and infallible word of God.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Fall of Man [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe man was created good and upright, however, man, by voluntary transgression, fell and therefore incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Salvation of Man [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Resurrection of Believers and Non Believers[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]-Believers into everlasting life and non believers to everlasting punishment[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Baptism [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- The outward sign of the inward change in a life through salvation in Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Arial]Holy Spirit [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]- We believe in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit who enables a believer to live a holy life.[/FONT]

Shoudl I consider my point proven?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Shoudl I consider my point proven?

How? I am not a fan of the emergent church. I read MacLaren and see him either increasingly going farther into heresy or just finally his real false ideas.

But you asked for a statement, it was given so show us how this proves your point.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

How? I am not a fan of the emergent church. I read MacLaren and see him either increasingly going farther into heresy or just finally his real false ideas.

But you asked for a statement, it was given so show us how this proves your point.

I have passed gas longer than it takes to read that.

I will critique it in the next post.

 

[Revmitchell]

There are a lot of myths surrounding the emergent church model. First of all, occultic mysticism is not a facet of the emergent church. Prayer and meditation, however, is. Since prayer and meditation are scripturally encouraged, this should be a nonissue.

Second, on the issue of spiritual formation, every church, whether emergent or not, should be engaging in spiritual formation. If one does not allow himself to be formed spiritually, he stands the chance of being formed carnally.

Contemplative prayer is eastern mysticism repackaged. Using vague terms such as prayer, mediation, and spiritual formation does nothing to support the value of the emerging church which is heretical to be sure.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

One God - We believe in one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
One Savior - We believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His sinless life, His vicarious, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension and second coming in glory.
One Bible – We believe in the Bible (both the Old and New Testaments) as the inspired and infallible word of God.
Fall of Man - We believe man was created good and upright, however, man, by voluntary transgression, fell and therefore incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God.
Salvation of Man - We believe in salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Resurrection of Believers and Non Believers-Believers into everlasting life and non believers to everlasting punishment
Baptism - The outward sign of the inward change in a life through salvation in Jesus Christ.
Holy Spirit - We believe in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit who enables a believer to live a holy life.

With this statement I can believe:

1. Jesus is just another way to God.
2. There is other inspired, infallible word of God out there.
3. I dont have to repent to be saved.
4. Homosexuality is ok
5. The pope is the head of the church
6. Salvation is by works and grace
7. Salvation is by works alone.
8. The apocrypha is the Word of God too.
9. God isn't sovereign
10. The Lord's Table/Communion no longer is needed. It's optional.
11. We are justified by works.
12. There are no covenants between God and mankind.
13. The Law of God has no place in a Chrisitan's life.

et., et.,

It's not what it says...its what it doesn't say.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I have passed gas longer than it takes to read that.

I will critique it in the next post.

I am glad this is not a face to face conversation. I shall wait with clothes pinned nose for what you shall say.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I am glad this is not a face to face conversation. I shall wait with clothes pinned nose for what you shall say.

There must be humor...lol

 

[webdog]

With this statement I can believe:

1. Jesus is just another way to God.
2. There is other inspired, infallible word of God out there.
3. I dont have to repent to be saved.
4. Homosexuality is ok
5. The pope is the head of the church
6. Salvation is by works and grace
7. Salvation is by works alone.
8. The apocrypha is the Word of God too.
9. God isn't sovereign
10. The Lord's Table/Communion no longer is needed. It's optional.
11. We are justified by works.
12. There are no covenants between God and mankind.
13. The Law of God has no place in a Chrisitan's life.

et., et.,

It's not what it says...its what it doesn't say.

You would be reading into that which is not there. That is eisegesis.

 

[Johnv]

Contemplative prayer is eastern mysticism repackaged.

Define contemplative prayer. There's nothing in my church that resembles "eastern mysticism".

Many unfamiliar with the emergent church define contemplative prayer as taking a word or phrase and chanting on it. This can be contemplative prayer, but it is not exclusively cotemplative prayer. Contemplative prayer usually involves sitting in a secluded area (our church has prayer stations which people can go to after communion) and engaging in a perios of contemplation: personal, silent, intimate, isolated, and individual.

That said, I'm amused at how many people ahbor what they call "idle repetition" as vain prayer, yet their own churches frequently engage in weekly unison repetition of the Lord's prayer. My church does neither, btw.

 

[Marcia]

Define contemplative prayer. There's nothing in my church that resembles "eastern mysticism".

Many unfamiliar with the emergent church define contemplative prayer as taking a word or phrase and chanting on it. This can be contemplative prayer, but it is not exclusively cotemplative prayer. Contemplative prayer usually involves sitting in a secluded area (our church has prayer stations which people can go to after communion) and engaging in a perios of contemplation: personal, silent, intimate, isolated, and individual.

That said, I'm amused at how many people ahbor what they call "idle repetition" as vain prayer, yet their own churches frequently engage in weekly unison repetition of the Lord's prayer. My church does neither, btw.

I've been following the contemplative movement for a number of years. I cover this in my article (a link is posted to it on this thread). The term usually does not mean actual contemplation but certain breathing patterns that get one into a state where one is not thinking. In fact, the proponents of this actually say that one should not be thinking. Often, they advocate repeating a word or phrase over and over, sometimes silently or aloud. You are also supposed to go back to this word if your mind wanders. (Of course, repeating a word does not allow one to think; the bible tells us to think when we pray).

Thomas Keating, the arch designer of all this, said that if you think of God, you can't pray.

So while your church may mean actual contemplation by "contemplative prayer," that is definitely not how most of what is called contemplative prayer is being taught or modeled.

 

[Tom Butler]

Marcia, this is very helpful to me. I was wondering how contemplative prayer squares with simple meditation, and how one could do it scripturally without getting caught up in the mysticism.

I think one should be careful when emptying the mind of thoughts. I fear it can leave the mind vulnerable to demonic attack, or something more subtle.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, this is very helpful to me. I was wondering how contemplative prayer squares with simple meditation, and how one could do it scripturally without getting caught up in the mysticism.

I think one should be careful when emptying the mind of thoughts. I fear it can leave the mind vulnerable to demonic attack, or something more subtle.

The problem is with the words for "meditation" and "contemplation." People mean different things by them. Eastern meditation is nothing like biblical meditation. The Hebrew word translated as meditation, as I understand it from research and from others who know Hebrew, means to ponder, reflect, understand, and sometimes to memorize God's word.

But it's the Eastern form of meditation (without identifying it as such) that has infiltrated our culture and is also being identified as Biblical meditation. This is partly the result of Thomas Merton (who died in '68), Thomas Keating, Basil Pennington, Richard Foster, and others.

 

[Johnv]

I've been following the contemplative movement for a number of years.

The contemplative prayer movement does not have a monopoly on its verbage or usage. What often happens is we hear that a church is "emergent" so we automatically condemn it based on the word alone. My church is emergent, but not unbiblical in the slightest.