Spiritual hearing...or the lack thereof

[Iconoclast]

In reference to the discussion in the other thread....what enables you to do this with a Calvinist but not a non-Cal? Why the freedom to err on something so Orthodox as the heaven issue....but not this? Some might consider that a more blatant error. So you can "eat the meat and spit out the bones" with this guy merely because he is a determinist??

Hos,

No...I can do it with any type of teaching, but to be honest Cals preach more meat as a rule....to my hearing anyway..... I sent you a PM...he answered my email...is going to send me the notes

On sermonaudio I like;
W.R.Downing
Albert N Martin
Geoff Thomas
Paul Dowling
Edward Donnely
Paul Washer
James White
Greg Nichols
Jim Savisito
Sam Waldron
John Macarthur

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hos,
No...I can do it with any type of teaching, but to be honest Cals preach more meat as a rule....to my hearing anyway.....

You CAN do it, but my impression is that you don't or you refuse to...I think you are missing out if that is the case....Especially about the C.S. Lewis thing...we can talk about that later, maybe in PM.

With respect to the part I bolded: I must agree with you, Calvinism was a nearly dead idea 25-30 years ago....but the failure of non-Cal teaching to satisfy the need for some of the real meat of the word has, I think, contributed to a resurgence of Cal teaching. Generally speaking I do think that that is often the case. I believe that many people are drawn towards Calvinist teaching and embrace it, largely because they are sick of milk and the first ones to offer them meat are Calvinists....They may be wrong in their conclusions, but they cannot be blamed for being attuned to deeper teaching. This is, I think, especially true of your Y.R.R's. Not to worry...the non-Cals have recognized this failure and they are correcting it. :thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

You CAN do it, but my impression is that you don't or you refuse to...I think you are missing out if that is the case....Especially about the C.S. Lewis thing...we can talk about that later, maybe in PM.

With respect to the part I bolded: I must agree with you, Calvinism was a nearly dead idea 25-30 years ago....but the failure of non-Cal teaching to satisfy the need for some of the real meat of the word has, I think, contributed to a resurgence of Cal teaching. Generally speaking I do think that that is often the case. I believe that many people are drawn towards Calvinist teaching and embrace it, largely because they are sick of milk and the first ones to offer them meat are Calvinists....They may be wrong in their conclusions, but they cannot be blamed for being attuned to deeper teaching. This is, I think, especially true of your Y.R.R's. Not to worry...the non-Cals have recognized this failure and they are correcting it. :thumbsup::wavey:

Hos,

I did speak with pastor Culver a few hours ago. He has an orthodox view of heaven, but as I suspected....he does not think we have the words to describe it.
Also...he is going to send me 3 PDF files of the notes he made available to the class. He assured me there are many scriptures that he offered....but that to open them all during the sermon would have hindered what he was trying to focus on.... They were to numerous to list.

This Pastor seemed very much to be the real deal.....I had to pretty much shut and and listen...lol. I will visit there next time I am in Denver.

You CAN do it, but my impression is that you don't or you refuse to...I think you are missing out if that is the case....Especially about the C.S. Lewis thing...we can talk about that later, maybe in PM.

you are most likely correct with your observation here.
i am just one person,and have learned what works for me....With any of these people I set aside......my prayer would be that God uses all of them as He will.....But for example....i will never read the "screwtape letters".....
I have no interest, not even to be able to discuss them......that is just me.
Pilgrims progress I did read through as Bunyon was very sound theologically and many sermons spoke about that work.

I prefer doctrine.....doctrine that builds and expands based upon Jesus, and His commands to us. I have a working knowledge of other teachings and systems....but only so I can recognize error when i come across someone trying to present it.
I do not always acknowledge the error...because I try to avoid being contentious......because I know by experience...that contentions are always being put forward.
Even with this sermon...I was not offering it so much to add to the cal/arm discussion...as much as I thought pastor Culver opens up good ideas for meditation and study.....after speaking with him directly...I am confident that he is a solid Pastor who labours in the word and doctrine. Any question I asked Him, he was right on it:thumbsup:

Again...there is an expression...jack of all trades...master of none....
I at this point in life attempt to narrow my focus on what will help equip me to better serve our Lord.

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I did speak with pastor Culver a few hours ago. He has an orthodox view of heaven, but as I suspected....he does not think we have the words to describe it.

Good, Hopefully, he merely mispoke (a legit possibility) when he said "Heaven is not a "place" per se. If that was simply human frailty/failure then it is understandable...Let us assume the best, that he merely mispoke then.

i will never read the "screwtape letters".....

OH! Forsooth!!! And in only the prologue of the book he makes this Brilliant statement!! (as I cannot readily fetch one of my 3 personal copies, I will paraphrase)

"There are two errors men might possibly make with demons, the one is to deny their existence, the other, is to take an unnatural and unhealthy interest in them. And the Devil will accept either the materialist or the sorceror with equal relish"

(my paraphrase).

....but only so I can recognize error when i come across someone trying to present it.

Again....Do you not see circularity??? I mean by that, a circular argument: the assumption that your present belief is true....and therefore the necessary falsehood of another....which is proven...only by your previous assumption.

I prefer doctrine.....doctrine that builds and expands based upon Jesus, and His commands to us.

You do realize that a non-Cal might reasonably feel that they are merely responding to precisely the same sentiments right?

I do not always acknowledge the error...because I try to avoid being contentious......

This made me chuckle...because you are, I think, as effective at being "non-contentious" as I am, which is to say, not very much...:laugh: It is something to be worked on on both of our parts.

Pilgrims progress I did read through as Bunyon

Uh, Ya, you are simply a horrible human being if you don't. I might be mistaken...but last I heard...the two best selling books in the English language were, in decending order:
1.) The Bible
2.) Pilgrim's Progress

I at this point in life attempt to narrow my focus on what will help equip me to better serve our Lord.

An apprecciable sentiment, but, it again belies a certain circularity to your belief system...No?

 

[Iconoclast]

Again....Do you not see circularity??? I mean by that, a circular argument: the assumption that your present belief is true....and therefore the necessary falsehood of another....which is proven...only by your previous assumption.

No....I do not think of it in these terms at all.....you are calling revealed truth...an assumption. God's truth is not subjective. When the bible declares truth....anything other is falsehood.

You do realize that a non-Cal might reasonably feel that they are merely responding to precisely the same sentiments right?

A non cal who is a believer....is a future cal....with alot to learn. cals have much more to learn about God's eternal purpose as revealed in scripture....but they have less baggage to discard along the way.
That being said....some non cal believers have gifts or graces that might exceed the cal......in service or obedience. They should not use that as an excuse not to grow doctrinally.
The tendency and danger of the Cal is to grow in doctrinal understanding,but not pray about the other graces. The non cal who might have a more pleasant countenance.....tends to despise the cal who is ahead doctrinally.....so the charge comes of , pride, arrogance, puffed up...when in reality both are reacting to defects they have because of their identity.
The cal sees the doctrinal defects....so tends to despise the other good qualities the person has.The cal tries to help....but the non cal defends ...rather than accept correction.
The non cal seeks to help the cal become more "well rounded" or balanced.
But the cal mostly rejects what is offered...because having seen the massive doctrinal defects of the non cal in doctrinal areas...they do not consider what could be helpful advise sometimes.

PICTURE.....two large circles...the one on the right...calvinism.....the one on the left .....other professed believers.....as they over lap....the other circle matches portions of the cal circle....they have that in common..

to whatever degree they match up...they align with truth....over time...the non cal circle comes more into focus...with the cal circle:thumbsup:

This made me chuckle...because you are, I think, as effective at being "non-contentious" as I am, which is to say, not very much...:laugh: It is something to be worked on on both of our parts.

:laugh: you noticed this!:laugh: Even though we disagree on somethings, slowly i think we can see that we agree on more than we do not agree upon.Uh, Ya, you are simply a horrible human being if you don't. I might be mistaken...but last I heard...the two best selling books in the English language were, in decending order:
1.) The Bible
2.) Pilgrim's Progress



An apprecciable sentiment, but, it again belies a certain circularity to your belief system...No?

Not to me it does'nt. Scripture says this is the way...walk in it. There are many direct commands that are clear. When someone sees the absoluteness of the sovereignty of God....they move and think with a purpose....anyone who is not moving forward does not make it.....anyman who puts his hand to the plow,and looks back...is not fit for the kingdom...remember Lot's wife.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 5 :
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.



Solid food, meat isn't just a certain teaching that others don't accept, but putting into practice righteousness that we learned from Christ into action.



"There is King Jesus marching at the head of his troops; and can it be that some of you, who profess to be his followers, are on the other side; that professing to be Christ's you are lighting in the ranks of the enemy—carrying the baggage of Satan and wearing the uniform of hell, when you profess to be soldiers of Christ? I know there are such here: God forgive them! God spare them; and may the deserters yet come back, even though they come back in the chains of conviction! May they come back and be saved! O brethren and sisters, there are enough to destroy souls without us—enough to extend the kingdom of Satan without our helping him. "Come out from among them; touch not the unclean thing; be ye separate." Church of God! awake, awake, awake to the salvation of men! Sleep no longer, begin to pray, to wrestle, to travail in birth; be more holy, more consistent, more strict, more solemn in thy deportment! Begin, O soldiers of Christ, to be more true to your colors, and as surely as the time shall come when the church shall thus be reformed and revived, to surely shall the King come into our midst, and we shall march on to certain victory, trampling down our enemies, and getting to our King many crowns, through many victories achieved."

C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast, you posted...

I can do it with any type of teaching, but to be honest Cals preach more meat as a rule....to my hearing anyway

I disagree. There is just as much "meat" in non-cal teaching as there is in cal teaching.

The primary differance is that there is so much BAD meat from the Cal camp. Much more than the non-cals.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you posted...



I disagree. There is just as much "meat" in non-cal teaching as there is in cal teaching.

The primary differance is that there is so much BAD meat from the Cal camp. Much more than the non-cals.

AIC,

Not even close.What you might be thinking of is some who have seminars on self esteem, and tolerance,and diversity....but this is not to be confused with expository preaching. Many a non cal cannot bear it...that is why you see the pragmatic ....."seeker friendly" ministries......trying to be relevant and, stylish, rather than biblical,popping up everywhere.
That you do not grasp cal teaching is why you malign it.....but when push comes to shove....you know it is true:thumbsup:

The primary differance is that there is so much BAD meat from the Cal camp

AIC....if you contend that there is so much "bad meat" in the cal camp....it would be easy for you to give five clear specific examples that we could learn about.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 5 :
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.



Solid food, meat isn't just a certain teaching that others don't accept, but putting into practice righteousness that we learned from Christ into action.



"There is King Jesus marching at the head of his troops; and can it be that some of you, who profess to be his followers, are on the other side; that professing to be Christ's you are lighting in the ranks of the enemy—carrying the baggage of Satan and wearing the uniform of hell, when you profess to be soldiers of Christ? I know there are such here: God forgive them! God spare them; and may the deserters yet come back, even though they come back in the chains of conviction! May they come back and be saved! O brethren and sisters, there are enough to destroy souls without us—enough to extend the kingdom of Satan without our helping him. "Come out from among them; touch not the unclean thing; be ye separate." Church of God! awake, awake, awake to the salvation of men! Sleep no longer, begin to pray, to wrestle, to travail in birth; be more holy, more consistent, more strict, more solemn in thy deportment! Begin, O soldiers of Christ, to be more true to your colors, and as surely as the time shall come when the church shall thus be reformed and revived, to surely shall the King come into our midst, and we shall march on to certain victory, trampling down our enemies, and getting to our King many crowns, through many victories achieved."

C.H. Spurgeon

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

This sermon is based upon these Scriptures apparently:

2 Opinions 3: 16-22 It is based almost wholly upon:
mins. 12-19 His personal philosophy of epistemology and ontology



On the whole: He did not "Preach the Word" He introduced us to his philosophical understandings and cracked open the Bible in order to demonstrate what he thought: He did not derive his ideas from Scripture as much as He gave us His personal point of view and put the Scriptures into it. He faithfully exegeted the Scriptures when he used them...but he did not derive his points from them. Generally, I tend to prefer a more Biblical sermon, rather than fallen man's understanding.

Hos......
This might shed more light on where he got the teaching from:thumbsup:

here are the verses given out to those in the class,that the teaching was based on;
Like Elisha’s servant and Christ’s
hearers, we have to be given eyes to see and ears to hear (cf. 2 Kings 6:1-17; John 10:22-27).

(cf. Ezekiel 1:4-28, 8:1-4, 10:1-22).

(cf. Ezekiel 1; Revelation
4:1-6, 21:9-21).
(cf. Isaiah 6:1-3, 57:15)
And because God dwells in heaven, it is the place from which He exercises the
various aspects of His rule over His creation. Thus heaven is portrayed in the
imagery of a temple and throne room (Psalm 11:1-4, 103:19; Isaiah 6:1-4, 66:1;
Ezekiel 1:26-28, 10:1-5; Daniel 7:1-10; Revelation 21:22-22:1-2; etc.).

In keeping with heaven’s status as God’s habitation, the Bible uses the language
of obscurity and inaccessibility to describe it. It is a realm obscured from human
sight and removed from human access. Significantly, God must grant men both
the sight of it and entrance into it (cf. God’s presence at Sinai and the Holy of
Holies with Acts 7:54-56; Hebrews 11:8-16; Revelation 4:1, 15:5, 19:11, 21:25ff).
(Exodus 3:1-2, 24:1-13; cf. 1 Kings 19:1-8).
(Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 3:17; Micah 4:1-2). Jerusalem is so
closely linked with the “mount of God” that the terms are sometimes used synonymously
(ref. Isaiah 37:32, 66:20; Daniel 9:16; Joel 2:32, 3:17; Zechariah 8:3).
(cf. Genesis 11:1-4, 12:8, 22:1-2; Exodus 3:1-12; Numbers
22:39-41, 33:51-52; 2 Chronicles 33:11-15; Ezekiel 6:13; etc.; cf. also John 4:19-20).
Though God dwells in a “high and holy place,” He is not remote from men, but
“descends” to encounter them in the reality of their world and existence (Isaiah 57:15).
So He did on Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:1-22), on the mount in the land of Moriah
(Genesis 22:1ff), on Mount Sinai (Horeb) with Moses and the sons of Israel, and later on
Mount Zion in Jerusalem. So also the prophets spoke of the day of the Lord’s coming
when He would descend on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:1-4) and, as the result of
His work of purging and renewal, His holy mountain would encompass the entire earth
(Daniel 2:24-35). In that day, Jerusalem – the mount of God – was to be the habitation of
all the nations (cf. Isaiah 11:9-10, 25:1-10, 56:1-8, 66:20 with Revelation 21:1ff).
2. Eden
Furthermore, the language and imagery of Eden are employed and developed
throughout the Scripture in reference to appointed places where God dwells with
His people. So it was with Canaan (cf. Exodus 3:8 and Joel 2:1-3 with Exodus
15:11-17, 25:1-8) and the temple (1 Kings 6:18ff; 7:18ff), and so it is with the
new creation (Isaiah 4:2-6, 51:3, 65:13-25, 66:18ff; Jeremiah 31:1-12; Ezekiel
36:33-36; Hosea 2:14-23; Amos 9:11-15; cf. Revelation 21:1-3 with 22:1-19).


There are plenty more......but this will give you the idea now:laugh::laugh:
he might have gotten some of his ideas from these verses....not philosophy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for that summary...you saved me an hour of my time :thumbs:

anyone that denies heaven is a real place is someone I will avoid like the plague

.
I would avoid someone that did that also...but he does not deny it...he just thinks our conceptions of it are too carnal and limited
It was not spoken as clear as it could be,and caused some confusion.

Also...IC, I thought you were against philosophy?

yes i am ...all philosophy that is carnal and against scriptural revelation. In this message pastor culver demonstrates how the carnal philosophers in athens missed the true and living God. he demonstrates the fatal flaw of all carnal philosophy,and idolatry. Still waiting for you to listen between the 20-33 minute mark.....and respond...stop being a lazy slug WD:laugh:

 

[webdog]

yes i am ...all philosophy that is carnal and against scriptural revelation. In this message pastor culver demonstrates how the carnal philosophers in athens missed the true and living God. he demonstrates the fatal flaw of all carnal philosophy,and idolatry. Still waiting for you to listen between the 20-33 minute mark.....and respond...stop being a lazy slug WD:laugh:

Not lazy...I've since taken your approach of only surrounding myself and listening to those whose theology I agree with :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

Not lazy...I've since taken your approach of only surrounding myself and listening to those whose theology I agree with :laugh:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Not lazy...I've since taken your approach of only surrounding myself and listening to those whose theology I agree with :laugh:

Well, it does make life more peaceful. :love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

Not lazy...I've since taken your approach of only surrounding myself and listening to those whose theology I agree with :laugh:

Good one....:laugh::thumbsup::wavey: Thing is i thought you would agree with him...