Spiritual interpretation ....pt.7

[Iconoclast]

The Kingdom of God teaching in scripture is simple if you start with the right premise. The right premise is grounded in Genesis 1;26-27 and God's purpose for creating man. Man was to "rule" over this present world as God's vice regent. God's rule is first WITHIN man and that is why man was made in the "image" of God and "upright" according to a moral standard - God's righteousness. God's rule was to be THROUGH man over this world. God created a sinless world with a sinless ruler (Adam). The fall destroyed the rule of God IN man and thereby destroyed it THROUGH man. The eternal covenant of redemption is designed to first establish God's rule IN man and then THROUGH man. This restored rule will not be accomplished according to the eternal covenant design until there is another sinless world ruled over by sinless man.

In the mean time,the rule of God is being manifest THROUGH man progressively according to progressive sanctification but never perfectly until "thy kingdom come" when God's will, will be manifest on earth as it is in heaven - perfectly IN and THROUGH man within a sinless new heaven and earth.

In this age that progressive imperfect rule THROUGH man is manifested through the public kingdom administration which began with the family unit in Genesis, and then progressed to the "house of God" within a visible expressive kingdom - Israel. After the cross it then was transferred along with the "keys of the kingdom" to the New Testament "house of God" until the end of this age. Individually, his rule has always been IN man established by spiritual union and then THROUGH man established by progressive sanctification, but institutionally it has been established IN the "house of God."

Hello B,
Do you see this as the beginning of that process?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

redeemed man obeying the creation mandate?

 

[The Biblicist]

Hello B,
Do you see this as the beginning of that process?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

redeemed man obeying the creation mandate?

No, I see the kingdom in its fullest force prior to the fall in sinless state of creation. After the fall, I see the partial reinstatement of the Kingdom WITHIN those in the Second Adam. The new birth (spiritual union) establishes the kingdom/rule of God within all who are "in Christ" as the Second Adam. However, the outward manifestation of that rule is where the process becomes more complex and incomplete between the fall and the restoration of a new heaven and earth. It is in that outward manifestation of His rule where the professing kingdom of God occurs mixed together with the counterfeit professing people of God. It is in this PROFESSING KINGDOM where Israel in the Old Testament as the professing kingdom and the church in the New Testament operate with the administration of the keys of the kingdom. The nation of Israel in the OT and the church in the New Testament were the visible authorized administrators within the professing kingdom as the ordinances, ordained ministry, along with public worship is conducted in this aspect of the kingdom of God.

 

[Covenanter]

Indeed He does, and they have been happening through the ages and are still happening today. That's one reason why we know the Bible is true.

Our Lord's ascension into heaven was not invisible. It was seen by countless myriads of angels (Daniel 7:10-14; 1 Timothy 3:16). Nor will His return 'on the clouds' be invisible (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7).

What makes you think that Peter was referring to Jews specifically? His first letter was written to Christians living in Central and Northern Turkey (1 Peter 1:1; cf. 2 Peter 3:1). Even if he were referring to Jews, there are plenty of Jews today who scoff at Christianity.

So you think it was never our Lord's intention that the Gospel should go outside the Roman world? Strange! Matthew 24:14. "And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Were people in Japan or Australia given a witness of the Gospel by AD 70?Also, although the Gospel was preached remarkably quickly, it is extremely doubtful that it had reached the whole of the Roman world by AD 70.

We agreed that 24:4-14 are not signs related to the destruction. The Gospel continues to all nations until Jesus returns.

Would "every nation under heaven" convince you? Those "Pentecostal" Jews presumably went home.

Jesus' "coming" statements quote Daniel. What direction was he coming? The Jews understood the"blasphemy."

Why should first century Gentiles be scoffers? The warning was to the Jews. The attitude of subsequent generations of Jews is not in the prophecy though the state of the city of Jerusalem is.

It would be helpful if you were to reply to what I write, rather than invent things you can ridicule.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We agreed that 24:4-14 are not signs related to the destruction. The Gospel continues to all nations until Jesus returns.

So you do not believe that 'wars and rumours of wars etc. are not related to AD 70? I'm sorry; I was not aware of that. Most Preterists that I have debated take the whole of the Olivet Discourse as applying to that event.

Would "every nation under heaven" convince you? Those "Pentecostal" Jews presumably went home.

Convince me of what? There was clearly no church established in Philippi, Thessalonika etc. before Paul arrived. It is hyperbole.

Jesus' "coming" statements quote Daniel. What direction was he coming? The Jews understood the"blasphemy."

Of course they did. The term 'Son of Man' as used by the Lord Jesus throughout His ministry, might have referred either to Ezekiel or Daniel 7. When He used the term in Mark 14:62, it was a clear reference to Daniel and was a clear claim to His divinity. That does not alter the fact that Daniel 7 refers to our Lord's return to heaven after His ascension.

Why should first century Gentiles be scoffers? The warning was to the Jews. The attitude of subsequent generations of Jews is not in the prophecy though the state of the city of Jerusalem is.

Why wouldn't they? They have been ever since. The Gospel was 'folly to the Gentiles' even in the 1st Century (1 Corinthians 1:23).

It would be helpful if you were to reply to what I write, rather than invent things you can ridicule.

I believe I am replying to what you write, but I'm sorry if you feel it is ridicule. That is not my intention. Sometimes, when I'm in a hurry, my posts may seem unnecessarily brusque. Please forgive me if I come across as rude.

 

[Yeshua1]

Indeed He does, and they have been happening through the ages and are still happening today. That's one reason why we know the Bible is true.

Our Lord's ascension into heaven was not invisible. It was seen by countless myriads of angels (Daniel 7:10-14; 1 Timothy 3:16). Nor will His return 'on the clouds' be invisible (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7).

What makes you think that Peter was referring to Jews specifically? His first letter was written to Christians living in Central and Northern Turkey (1 Peter 1:1; cf. 2 Peter 3:1). Even if he were referring to Jews, there are plenty of Jews today who scoff at Christianity.

So you think it was never our Lord's intention that the Gospel should go outside the Roman world? Strange! Matthew 24:14. "And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Were people in Japan or Australia given a witness of the Gospel by AD 70?Also, although the Gospel was preached remarkably quickly, it is extremely doubtful that it had reached the whole of the Roman world by AD 70.

The whole world meant there was not just the Roman Empire, but the entire world, as Jesus meant the churcgh to go out to all nations, not just Middle east!

 

[kyredneck]

You are the one insisting that all prophecy focusses on AD 70

???

Where? Link to ANY post where I've even remotely implied that.

when no one whatsoever saw Christ.

Everyone has seen the the immense impact that His ' coming into His kingdom' has had upon humankind.

 

[Yeshua1]

None denies that the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple (Matthew 24:2), and I certainly don't deny that He put a time marker on it (v.34). But several other prophesies are better seen as operative all through the age (vs. 4-14) and this is backed up by Revelation. No one at all saw the Son of Man 'coming on the clouds of heaven with great power' in AD 70.
[QUOTE}
Peter was aware of scoffers challenging Jesus because his "coming" for judgment had not occurred. He reminds them that they are presuming on God's longsuffering. Time to repent, NOW! AD 70 put an end to doubts and doubters.

So you think that AD 70 put an end to doubt and doubting? And to scoffing as well? I don't think so!

Sure there is! Wars and rumours of wars; nation rising against nation; famines, earthquakes and pestilences; false Christs and false prophets, and of course the Gospel being steadily preached throughout the world. When people ask me about these things and ask why God doesn't do something, I tell them that if they didn't happen the Bible wouldn't be true.

It's not a failure at all.

Yes, but they didn't happen! No one saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70. And as for all the other things, they didn't stop in AD 70, that's for sure!

Well, for sure! Certainly we should not be bent out of shape by unfulfilled prophecy and get on with 'speeding the Lord's coming (2 Peter 3:12) by preaching the Gospel all through the world.

Rather, the prophesied events are being fulfilled all through history and will continue to be so until the Lord's coming, which will, as you say, be without specific warnings.[/QUOTE]
When Jesus has the actual second coming, the entire world will know of it, as there will be right then a new world order established upon the earth, NONE of that happened AD 70!

 

[Iconoclast]

So you think that AD 70 put an end to doubt and doubting? And to scoffing as well? I don't think so!

Sure there is! Wars and rumours of wars; nation rising against nation; famines, earthquakes and pestilences; false Christs and false prophets, and of course the Gospel being steadily preached throughout the world. When people ask me about these things and ask why God doesn't do something, I tell them that if they didn't happen the Bible wouldn't be true.

It's not a failure at all.

Yes, but they didn't happen! No one saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70. And as for all the other things, they didn't stop in AD 70, that's for sure!

Well, for sure! Certainly we should not be bent out of shape by unfulfilled prophecy and get on with 'speeding the Lord's coming (2 Peter 3:12) by preaching the Gospel all through the world.

Rather, the prophesied events are being fulfilled all through history and will continue to be so until the Lord's coming, which will, as you say, be without specific warnings.

When Jesus has the actual second coming, the entire world will know of it, as there will be right then a new world order established upon the earth, NONE of that happened AD 70![/QUOTE]


Who said anyone saw the Lord?
Who said they had to?
The kingdom had already been instituted before 70 ad....but you are just making it up as you go.

 

[Covenanter]

When Jesus has the actual second coming, the entire world will know of it, as there will be right then a new world order established upon the earth, NONE of that happened AD 70!

If events haven't occurred according to your opinions, is it possible that YOU could be wrong?

 

[Covenanter]

So you do not believe that 'wars and rumours of wars etc. are not related to AD 70? I'm sorry; I was not aware of that. Most Preterists that I have debated take the whole of the Olivet Discourse as applying to that event.

Most Preterists would understand those events in the way Jesus explained. They happen without specific significance. Ongoing, not signs of the end, neither of AD 70, nor the Lord's final coming for resurrection and judgment.

Convince me of what? There was clearly no church established in Philippi, Thessalonika etc. before Paul arrived. It is hyperbole.

True, but world wide preaching was in progress. Could Jesus not have come before 1492 because America hadn't been discovered and evangelised? Therefore AD 70 must be wrong?!?

Of course they did. The term 'Son of Man' as used by the Lord Jesus throughout His ministry, might have referred either to Ezekiel or Daniel 7. When He used the term in Mark 14:62, it was a clear reference to Daniel and was a clear claim to His divinity. That does not alter the fact that Daniel 7 refers to our Lord's return to heaven after His ascension.

Why wouldn't they? They have been ever since. The Gospel was 'folly to the Gentiles' even in the 1st Century (1 Corinthians 1:23).

At the time of writing, the "this generation, forty years" prophecy was fast approaching or was spurious. They chose to scoff, rather than repent.

Today, nobody can honestly argue that the flood didn't occur, nor that Jerusalem and the temple still stand. Jesus was wrong in his prophecy.

They may, of course, argue and scoff, because they believe lies. That is to their loss. But if AD 70 had not occurred the way it did, on time and in detail, then the scoffers would be vindicated, rather than Christ.

I believe I am replying to what you write, but I'm sorry if you feel it is ridicule. That is not my intention. Sometimes, when I'm in a hurry, my posts may seem unnecessarily brusque. Please forgive me if I come across as rude.

Thanks, accepted.
My concern is that when I have answered a post in detail, points I haven't made are assumed and and answered.

Yesh and Jap John are experts at deliberate misunderstanding and "refuting" their own misunderstandings.

 

[Iconoclast]

The thorns and briers from Isa5 are the same ones the writer to Hebrews warns true believers about. When Jesus is rejected by most in Physical Israel in Mt 21......only the elect remnant is saved....He then continues building His church in the midst of opposition.
There are no major events to yet happen until the last day.
The day of the Lord came upon Israel.....now The gospel spreads as mt28 speaks of,until the activity right before the last day.

 

[Yeshua1]

When Jesus has the actual second coming, the entire world will know of it, as there will be right then a new world order established upon the earth, NONE of that happened AD 70!

Who said anyone saw the Lord?
Who said they had to?
The kingdom had already been instituted before 70 ad....but you are just making it up as you go.[/QUOTE]
All eyes shall see him per revelation, Jesus stated also that His coming will be as flash as lighting from east to the west, so will be something that will be recorded down as a BIG event, especially when the resurrection of the saints happen!

 

[Covenanter]

Who said anyone saw the Lord?
Who said they had to?
The kingdom had already been instituted before 70 ad....but you are just making it up as you go.

All eyes shall see him per revelation, Jesus stated also that His coming will be as flash as lighting from east to the west, so will be something that will be recorded down as a BIG event, especially when the resurrection of the saints happen!

Read Isaiah 6.
Seeing without understanding. We often say "I see" when we mean that we understand. The tribes of Israel certainly understood when their scoffing was answered by the AD 70 destruction. 2 Peter 3, Acts 28

The destruction was a BIG event. How many other events of the first century are still widely known?

 

[Yeshua1]

Read Isaiah 6.
Seeing without understanding. We often say "I see" when we mean that we understand. The tribes of Israel certainly understood when their scoffing was answered by the AD 70 destruction. 2 Peter 3, Acts 28

The destruction was a BIG event. How many other events of the first century are still widely known?

Not known at all outside of isreal, but the second coming will be known world wide!

 

[Covenanter]

Not known at all outside of isreal, but the second coming will be known world wide!

ONE minute to reply. You have NOT read the references.

 

[Iconoclast]

Who said anyone saw the Lord?
Who said they had to?
The kingdom had already been instituted before 70 ad....but you are just making it up as you go.

All eyes shall see him per revelation, Jesus stated also that His coming will be as flash as lighting from east to the west, so will be something that will be recorded down as a BIG event, especially when the resurrection of the saints happen![/QUOTE]

Can you answer any question at all?

here is the question....
show where anyone of us declared that Jesus physically returned in ad 70 ...quote or tell us which post it was...is that too much to ask? If none of us said that, stop saying it!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.