• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual Interpretation....pt4

Status
Not open for further replies.

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Denying the resurrection

Who, exactly, has done that here?

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;
52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Mt 27

Duty calls. I'll think on the other.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
Again, I never accused you or anyone else of denying the resurrection. However, I did make the claim that your interpretation and application of certain passages of scripture make your belief in the resurrection inconsistent. Besides the fact that Mt. 27.52, 53 are outside the context of Dan. 12.1,2 (ignore the chapter division and read what comes before and what follows), do you also claim that many at that time rose to shame and everlasting contempt? Furthermore, were those saints raised to everlasting life or raised to die again? Also, the great tribulation alluded to by Jesus in Mt. 24 is closely connected to the resurrection.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Who, exactly, has done that here?

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;
52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Mt 27

Duty calls. I'll think on the other.
Only Jesus has been raised glorified state, those soon died afterwards!
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
do you also claim that many at that time rose to shame and everlasting contempt

Just because there's no mention of it in the passage doesn't mean it didn't happen. The designation 'many' in both Dan & Mt indicates neither was the 'general' resurrection.

And my salvation or me being 'in the faith' in no wise hinges on me ciphering this out correctly. No 'very great danger' of the eternal fire for getting it wrong.
 

Covenanter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Irenaeus and Hippolytus lived long before Scofield. At any rate, the historical data is against the seventieth week having been fulfilled in and around the time of the crucifixion.

We all read the historical data around the time of the crucifixion. Why do you think 300 weeks should be inserted between week 69 & 70?

Absolutely wrong. No one was ever saved by repentance and any kind of ceremony, including baptism. It's salvation and faith in all ages and dispensations.
I was quoting Peter - Acts 2:38
Do you not think repentance is vital for salvation?

And you still haven't justified the separation of week 70 from weeks 1-69.

I've 3 weeks work for you - I'll pay you in the 4th week.
Sorry mate - the 4th week is totally separate from weeks 1-3. Maybe it will come next year or perhaps 1000 years away.

Jesus did complete his wonderful saving work within the prophesied timescale of 70 weeks.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
your belief in the resurrection inconsistent

Show us YOUR consistency with the resurrection(s). How do you make the two resurrections of Rev 20 jibe with Mt 25? Do you insert a thousand year gap between Mt 25:40 and 41? (you people seem to have a knack for inserting gaps)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

.... one thousand years later:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: Mt 25
 
Last edited:

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I was quoting Peter - Acts 2:38
Um, no, you didn't quote that verse or even give the reference.
Do you not think repentance is vital for salvation?
Absolutely. I meant to say "repentance and faith," not "salvation and faith."

I just totally oppose the idea that baptism or any other work or ceremony is necessary for salvation in any age. Almost all Baptists are with me on that.
And you still haven't justified the separation of week 70 from weeks 1-69.
Yes I have, you just don't agree.
I've 3 weeks work for you - I'll pay you in the 4th week.
Sorry mate - the 4th week is totally separate from weeks 1-3. Maybe it will come next year or perhaps 1000 years away.

Jesus did complete his wonderful saving work within the prophesied timescale of 70 weeks.
Okay, now you're back to making no sense. Without some kind of context, these statements are irrelevant and/or incoherent.

I'm about to leave for home. See everyone Monday, God willing.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
Just because there's no mention of it in the passage doesn't mean it didn't happen. The designation 'many' in both Dan & Mt indicates neither was the 'general' resurrection.

And my salvation or me being 'in the faith' in no wise hinges on me ciphering this out correctly. No 'very great danger' of the eternal fire for getting it wrong.

I was just asking a question.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
Show us YOUR consistency with the resurrection(s). How do you make the two resurrections of Rev 20 jibe with Mt 25? Do you insert a thousand year gap between Mt 25:40 and 41? (you people seem to have a knack for inserting gaps)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

.... one thousand years later:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: Mt 25

You obviously do not have a problem with gaps either. You claim the destruction of Jerusalem is the subject of Dan. 9.26, 27. The destruction of Jerusalem, as you should know, lies outside the time frame of the seventy weeks if they are continuous. The Jews themselves do not hold to the idea that they have to be continuous or that they even were. Iconoclast claims the resurrection of the dead in 1 Th. 4.16 still awaits fulfillment when the coming of the Lord in the very same verse has already been fulfilled. What did you say about gaps again? You should not expect to find a resurrection in Mt. 25.31-46 as the judgment of living nations is under consideration.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You claim the destruction of Jerusalem is the subject of Dan. 9.26, 27.

I haven't commented on Dan 9, actually have forgotten more than I know about it, read Phillip Mauro's (NOT a Preterist) 'Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation' years ago and became convinced that Dan 9 is all about Christ and has nothing to do with a fictional character called Antichrist, and that before I'd ever heard of this "very dangerous" thing called 'Preterism'.

If I get time I may review and collect my thoughts.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
="Yeshua1,

The ECF held on the whole though to pre mil, and I am not speaking to a rapture of the church, just that God does state that right before the Messiah returns, Israel will have the time of Jacobs Folly/troubles, preparing them to meet their returning God!

[QUOTEI understand your viewpoint, but think that AD 70 was not when God totally reject Israel, as he rejected mainly their spiritual leadership! God still has future plans for them, as evidenced by Him fighting for their cause at final war called Armageddon][/QUOTE]


Zechariah 13:8 2/3 of isarael dies at Day of the Lord, but rest remaining will see the Messiah![/QUOTE]
Zechariah 13King James Version (KJV)

13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


Zech 13...is speaking about the cross. we know this because Mt quotes it here:
mt26;
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

So..once again....where does your loose assertion find support...nothing in Zech 13...about Jacobs trouble, or Armageddon.
 

Covenanter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ian said:
I've 3 weeks work for you - I'll pay you in the 4th week.
Sorry mate - the 4th week is totally separate from weeks 1-3. Maybe it will come next year or perhaps 1000 years away.

Jesus did complete his wonderful saving work within the prophesied timescale of 70 weeks.

Okay, now you're back to making no sense. Without some kind of context, these statements are irrelevant and/or incoherent.
I'm surprised you find: "Jesus did complete his wonderful saving work within the prophesied timescale of 70 weeks" no sense, irrelevant and/or incoherent. It's the main point of this discussion. 70 weeks, 490 years, is a period of time. And its a glorious truth.

What is lacking that has been postponed indefinitely to some future week?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You should not expect to find a resurrection in Mt. 25.31-46 as the judgment of living nations is under consideration.

Agree. I knew beforehand a resurrection is not mentioned, wasn't sure what you believed. Questions for more of what you believe:

Are the subjects all mankind? Or professors of the faith?

Where is 'the throne of His glory'?

Is this yet future or ongoing now?

How does this judgement jibe with the judgement of Rev 20:11-12?

Are folks that don't see it your way in 'very great danger'?
 
Last edited:

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm surprised you find: "Jesus did complete his wonderful saving work within the prophesied timescale of 70 weeks" no sense, irrelevant and/or incoherent. It's the main point of this discussion. 70 weeks, 490 years, is a period of time. And its a glorious truth.

What is lacking that has been postponed indefinitely to some future week?
The time of the second coming, to deal with saving national israel and setting up His Kingdom here on theearth!
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
I haven't commented on Dan 9, actually have forgotten more than I know about it, read Phillip Mauro's (NOT a Preterist) 'Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation' years ago and became convinced that Dan 9 is all about Christ and has nothing to do with a fictional character called Antichrist, and that before I'd ever heard of this "very dangerous" thing called 'Preterism'.

If I get time I may review and collect my thoughts.

I have read that book along with his The Hope Of Israel: What Is It? I used to highly recommend them both when I was a Primitive Baptist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top