Spiritual Interpretation pt5.

[John of Japan]

Whilst I am by no means opposed to education and lots of it, I think it might be pointed out that neither C.H. Spurgeon nor D.M. Lloyd-Jones, perhaps the greatest British preachers of the 19th and 20th Centuries respectively, had any formal theological training. Indeed, until about 1850, British Universities were closed to dissenters, so a doctorate would have been out of the question for Spurgeon.

The question I have raised is not whether one can be a great preacher without a theological education. The question is whether one can be a scholar without that education. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were certainly great preachers, mightily used of God, but I don't think anyone puts them forward as scholars.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm afraid you are not understanding the world of the scholar. You cannot get a Ph.D. at the level of my son's without doing new, original research. In other words, my son's dissertation broke completely new ground in the area it was in. He did research on the Greek word "foreknowledge" (prognosis), especially in the Petrine epistles, that has never been done before. Also, note that his dissertation was not on Calvinism, but strictly on the Greek word and the milieu in which it gained its meaning. It should be of benefit to any Calvinist who honestly wants truth.
Pr 18:13--"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

From what I've seen of Chilton, North and others, no contest.
Yep.

Hello John,
as time permits I would like feedback dealing with Isa54-66
In particular...lengthen the cords, strengthen the stakes...missionary activity, kingdom growth and expansion...as it releates to the restored mandate for redeemed men in Hebrews 2:5-8 to have Dominion here on earth, now, and going forward...or do you think this is also postponed?
The prophicies of gentiles flooding into the kingdom....
Isa 65, isa 66.....seems to speaking about now....
I used Chilton as a tool to get to the verses...I would rather discuss the verses ,rather than Chilton.

 

[John of Japan]

Hello John,
as time permits I would like feedback dealing with Isa54-66

It was to the Jews.

In particular...lengthen the cords, strengthen the stakes...missionary activity, kingdom growth and expansion...as it releates to the restored mandate for redeemed men in Hebrews 2:5-8 to have Dominion here on earth, now, and going forward...or do you think this is also postponed?

The grammar and context of this passage mean that it means Jesus Christ as ruler, not by any means anyone else, including North, Chilton or any other reconstructionist.

The prophicies of gentiles flooding into the kingdom....
Isa 65, isa 66.....seems to speaking about now....
I used Chilton as a tool to get to the verses...I would rather discuss the verses ,rather than Chilton.

You and North have said essentially that it is impossible to refute Chilton. I'm tired of that challenge (you know, the red flag and the bull?), and will refute his use of the Greek when I get time. Right now I'm grading papers all day.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The question I have raised is not whether one can be a great preacher without a theological education. The question is whether one can be a scholar without that education. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were certainly great preachers, mightily used of God, but I don't think anyone puts them forward as scholars.

I don't know how much you have read of Lloyd-Jones, but he was a particular guide for me in my formative years as a Christian and I have read quite a few of his books.
His 8-volume series on Ephesians and his even longer series on Romans strike me as works of considerable scholarship as does his 'Great Doctrines' trilogy. Likewise, Spurgeon's commentary on the Psalms is a work of great scholarship, referencing the works of dozens of Puritan writers.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't know how much you have read of Lloyd-Jones, but he was a particular guide for me in my formative years as a Christian and I have read quite a few of his books.
His 8-volume series on Ephesians and his even longer series on Romans strike me as works of considerable scholarship as does his 'Great Doctrines' trilogy.

Lloyd-Jones is kind of the British version of my grandfather, John R. Rice. Both wrote with great blessing and help for the average believer. Both even wrote some things which are scholarly, but which were not really accepted as great works in academia. John R. Rice wrote eight commentaries, but they were really devotional and not scholarly. (I was the research assistant for his Rev. commentary.) Likewise, aren't Lloyd-Jones' works on Ephesians expository rather than straight exegesis?

Likewise, Spurgeon's commentary on the Psalms is a work of great scholarship, referencing the works of dozens of Puritan writers.

My father-in-law gave me that set. Again, Spurgeon was a wonderful expositor, but he would never have claimed to be a scholar, going by his biographers.

Seeing what hard effort and extremely difficult work my son went through to get an accredited PhD in NT under a well-known scholar gave me great appreciation for modern scholarship. For example, my son had to learn from scratch two two languages known for scholarly works. He chose German and French. His breadth of knowledge and understanding of modern scholarship astounds me, and I ask him for help quite often. My own son has become my academic mentor!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Likewise, aren't Lloyd-Jones' works on Ephesians expository rather than straight exegesis?

They are expository, and certainly not devotional. But to give an example of their character, ML-J gives a whole book to 6:10-12, which is one of the best books on demonology to be found.
However, my intention was not to decry education or to put down your son ( I have a daughter who has a PhD, and I know how hard she worked for it), but only to warn against dismissing someone because he lacks formal educational qualifications. FWIW, ML-J was very highly educated, but in medicine rather than theology.

 

[Rippon]

I don't know how much you have read of Lloyd-Jones, but he was a particular guide for me in my formative years as a Christian and I have read quite a few of his books.
His 8-volume series on Ephesians and his even longer series on Romans strike me as works of considerable scholarship as does his 'Great Doctrines' trilogy. Likewise, Spurgeon's commentary on the Psalms is a work of great scholarship, referencing the works of dozens of Puritan writers.

David Larson, Professor Emeritus of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, considered him to be a scholar. But like Spurgeon was self-taught. Come to think of it, Augustine, John Gill and a number of others did not have formal education in the field of theology, but it can't be denied that they were scholars.

F.F. Bruce, had no degree in Biblical Studies -- no earned doctorate, but he was superlative in that field. He supervised hundreds of postgraduate students in Biblical Studies.

 

[Rippon]

Lloyd-Jones is kind of the British version of my grandfather, John R. Rice. Both wrote with great blessing and help for the average believer.

Talk about false analogies! There is a huge chasm between the two --only a significan contrast.
By the way, MLJ never "wrote books. He preached and lectured. And those sermons and addresses were put into print.

John R. Rice wrote eight commentaries, but they were really devotional and not scholarly.

Ya think?

 

[Rippon]

They are expository, and certainly not devotional. But to give an example of their character, ML-J gives a whole book to 6:10-12, which is one of the best books on demonology to be found.
However, my intention was not to decry education or to put down your son ( I have a daughter who has a PhD, and I know how hard she worked for it), but only to warn against dismissing someone because he lacks formal educational qualifications. FWIW, ML-J was very highly educated, but in medicine rather than theology.

DMLJ called himself a "theologist" rather than a true theologian. But who can deny the profound theology of the man.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Very good! It smashed into the feet of the Roman Empire and splintered it into ten Germanic tribes, the Holy Roman Empire, which corresponds to the seventh head of Revelation which ten horns would war with the Lamb (the Church) and hate the Harlot (Jews) and eat her flesh and burn her with fire (which Hitler and others before him epitomized).Incredible the accuracy of the prophecies.

Wait...I thought Revelation was about things "shortly" to come to pass..........#confused

 

[percho]

Are the writings of Paul the Apostle, scholarly?

Where and when did he get his PHD and who was his teacher?

 

[Covenanter]

John 9
Scholarship versus experience.

 

[John of Japan]

Are the writings of Paul the Apostle, scholarly?

Where and when did he get his PHD and who was his teacher?

He was mentored in the manner of the scholarship of his day to the highest level of learning under Gamaliel, who had a high reputation in Jewish scholarship (Acts 5:34, 22:3). He was also a linguist, speaking multiple languages (1 Cor. 14:18), at the very least Hebrew, Latin (being a Roman citizen), Aramaic, and Greek. So yes, his writings are very scholarly.

 

[John of Japan]

They are expository, and certainly not devotional. But to give an example of their character, ML-J gives a whole book to 6:10-12, which is one of the best books on demonology to be found.
However, my intention was not to decry education or to put down your son ( I have a daughter who has a PhD, and I know how hard she worked for it), but only to warn against dismissing someone because he lacks formal educational qualifications. FWIW, ML-J was very highly educated, but in medicine rather than theology.

I really don't think I was dismissing anyone because of a lack of educational qualifications. My whole point in this discussion has been to show that David Chilton, the erstwhile author of a commentary on Revelation (Days of Vengeance), had fake degrees and was not a scholar. This was to answer Iconoclast, following Gary North in the Publisher's Preface to the book, who wrote a complete ridiculous challenge:

"But there will be no successful attempt by scholarly leaders of the various pessimillennial camps to respond to Chilton. There is a reason for this: They cannot effectively respond. As we say in Tyler, they just don't have the horses. If I am incorrect about their theological inability, then we will see lengthy, detailed articles showing why Chilton's book is utterly wrong. If we don't see them, you can safely conclude that our opponents are in deep trouble. To cover their naked flanks, they will be tempted to offer the familiar refrain: 'We will not dignify such preposterous arguments with a public response.' That is to say, they will run up the intellectual white flag."

So according to North, if scholars ignore the work of a man with fake degrees and no effective knowledge of the original languages, they are admitting defeat. That's baloney. To prove this, I am going to start a thread showing Chilton's lack of knowledge of the Greek, in spite of his claimed M.Div. and Ph.D. (from a degree mill).

 

[kyredneck]

Very good! It smashed into the feet of the Roman Empire and splintered it into ten Germanic tribes, the Holy Roman Empire, which corresponds to the seventh head of Revelation which ten horns would war with the Lamb (the Church) and hate the Harlot (Jews) and eat her flesh and burn her with fire (which Hitler and others before him epitomized).Incredible the accuracy of the prophecies.

Wait...I thought Revelation was about things "shortly" to come to pass..........#confused

I’m hesitant to invest any more time on this thread because Squire’s gonna pop up anytime now with a six hour warning, my time is somewhat limited with contractors on site rebuilding a barn, you’re not at all interested in shedding any confusion, only with being ‘contrary’ or ‘anti’ to other’s best efforts to understand the book, and I personally have invested much prayer and research over the years to collect what little I do understand about the book, but, regardless, here’s some of my pearls.

things "shortly" to come to pass..........#confused

Yes, the Bible is true! I believe it when it says “This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished”; “Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come”; “there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”; “yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry”; “the things which must shortly come to pass… the time is at hand … I come quickly … Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand”,etc.

I will never accept that these things actually mean ‘thousands of years and still waiting’.

I agree with the Preterists that the book was written sometime late 60s, not 95, and that much of the book is about the judgement of the Great Harlot and the fulfillment of the covenant curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which were to “shortly come to pass” at the time of the writing, but I part with the Preterists and basically agree with Historicist/Idealism and some Futurist interpretation beyond that.

I think Preterists are mistaken in identifying the seven heads of the Beast with the Caesars. The seven heads correspond to the four beasts of Daniel and represent seven ‘epochs’ of world powers (ultimately not flesh and blood, but principalities, powers, world-rulers of this darkness, the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, Ephesians 6:12) which have ever warred down through history with the Heavenly Born of the Woman of Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12.

Concerning the Beast of Revelation, excerpts from Brother Edward Overby’s books (Historicist) ‘A Brief Commentary on Revelation’ and ‘A Brief Commentary on Daniel’:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“In verses 12-14 the 10 horns are explained. The 10 horns represent 10 kings, 12, which represent 10 kingdoms. In the time of John these 10 “have received no kingdom as yet.” Since this is also true of the 7th head, verse 10, and the only one that had not controlled the beast up to John's time, then it follows that the 10 horns must be on the 7th head. The 7th head with ten horns which was to come and rule the beast after John's day is different from all the heads before it. This is one head having the same basic civilization and being the same basic people, the Germanic tribes, yet they are many, 10 horns. The Germanic tribes were divided politically into a number of separate governments ruling at the time. There were 10 that originally set up kingdoms in the former Roman empire. These ten developed and changed in many ways throughout history. They were divided and subdivided into many many kingdoms and they consolidated and united and conquered so that they were just a few kingdoms. Their boundaries have changed greatly through the years. These changes we have mentioned are of no significance as far as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. The changes have confused some as to the identity of the 10 horns.”

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

The ten horns also correspond with the image in Daniel 2:

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. Dan 2

Ten toes, the ‘Christianized’ Germanic Tribes. Two feet, Eastern and Western Holy Roman Empires.

The common view that the Harlot represents the RCC is wrong. The Harlot represents apostate Judaism, the unfaithful murderous wife of Jehovah. The seventh head with ten horns represents The Holy Roman Empire, resurrected from the ashes of Rome and ruled by Germanic tribes, which were to war with The Lamb (the Church) and hate the Harlot (apostate Judaism).

So you see, there is a ‘legitimate gap’, or transition from the sixth head (Roman Empire) to the seventh head (Holy Roman Empire), which was still yet future at the time of the writing.

things "shortly" to come to pass..........#confused

The “days of vengeance and wrath unto this people” had actually already begun when Revelation was written:

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

This is verified by Josephus who covers in detail the grief and havoc that the Roman procurators (from 52-66 AD) Felix, Festus, Albinus, and Florus wrought upon Judea that precipitated the Zealot revolt against Rome and brought the horrors of those days upon them.

…and I’ve other things to do.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I’m hesitant to invest any more time on this thread because Squire’s gonna pop up anytime now with a six hour warning, my time is somewhat limited with contractors on site rebuilding a barn, you’re not at all interested in shedding any confusion, only with being ‘contrary’ or ‘anti’ to other’s best efforts to understand the book, and I personally have invested much prayer and research over the years to collect what little I do understand about the book, but, regardless, here’s some of my pearls.



Yes, the Bible is true! I believe it when it says “This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished”; “Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come”; “there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”; “yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry”; “the things which must shortly come to pass… the time is at hand … I come quickly … Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand”,etc.

I will never accept that these things actually mean ‘thousands of years and still waiting’.

I agree with the Preterists that the book was written sometime late 60s, not 95, and that much of the book is about the judgement of the Great Harlot and the fulfillment of the covenant curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which were to “shortly come to pass” at the time of the writing, but I part with the Preterists and basically agree with Historicist/Idealism and some Futurist interpretation beyond that.

I think Preterists are mistaken in identifying the seven heads of the Beast with the Caesars. The seven heads correspond to the four beasts of Daniel and represent seven ‘epochs’ of world powers (ultimately not flesh and blood, but principalities, powers, world-rulers of this darkness, the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, Ephesians 6:12) which have ever warred down through history with the Heavenly Born of the Woman of Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12.

Concerning the Beast of Revelation, excerpts from Brother Edward Overby’s books (Historicist) ‘A Brief Commentary on Revelation’ and ‘A Brief Commentary on Daniel’:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“In verses 12-14 the 10 horns are explained. The 10 horns represent 10 kings, 12, which represent 10 kingdoms. In the time of John these 10 “have received no kingdom as yet.” Since this is also true of the 7th head, verse 10, and the only one that had not controlled the beast up to John's time, then it follows that the 10 horns must be on the 7th head. The 7th head with ten horns which was to come and rule the beast after John's day is different from all the heads before it. This is one head having the same basic civilization and being the same basic people, the Germanic tribes, yet they are many, 10 horns. The Germanic tribes were divided politically into a number of separate governments ruling at the time. There were 10 that originally set up kingdoms in the former Roman empire. These ten developed and changed in many ways throughout history. They were divided and subdivided into many many kingdoms and they consolidated and united and conquered so that they were just a few kingdoms. Their boundaries have changed greatly through the years. These changes we have mentioned are of no significance as far as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. The changes have confused some as to the identity of the 10 horns.”

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

The ten horns also correspond with the image in Daniel 2:

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. Dan 2

Ten toes, the ‘Christianized’ Germanic Tribes. Two feet, Eastern and Western Holy Roman Empires.

The common view that the Harlot represents the RCC is wrong. The Harlot represents apostate Judaism, the unfaithful murderous wife of Jehovah. The seventh head with ten horns represents The Holy Roman Empire, resurrected from the ashes of Rome and ruled by Germanic tribes, which were to war with The Lamb (the Church) and hate the Harlot (apostate Judaism).

So you see, there is a ‘legitimate gap’, or transition from the sixth head (Roman Empire) to the seventh head (Holy Roman Empire), which was still yet future at the time of the writing.



The “days of vengeance and wrath unto this people” had actually already begun when Revelation was written:

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

This is verified by Josephus who covers in detail the grief and havoc that the Roman procurators (from 52-66 AD) Felix, Festus, Albinus, and Florus wrought upon Judea that precipitated the Zealot revolt against Rome and brought the horrors of those days upon them.

…and I’ve other things to do.

My Brother Larry,

You are wise not to invest any more time.....these revelations come to only a few & I am convinced very few get it anyway. Anyway, it is in the hands of God to illuminate......so, let it go.

God bless you for trying!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Yes, I'm going to issue a Six Hour Warning, effective 6 PM Pacific. However, please feel free to start another thread (part 6) to expand on your thoughts.

I’m hesitant to invest any more time on this thread because Squire’s gonna pop up anytime now with a six hour warning, my time is somewhat limited with contractors on site rebuilding a barn, you’re not at all interested in shedding any confusion,

 

[percho]

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thes 2:14-16

Do those verses say anything about the following verse?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Is it the Judeans of Israel who have been blinded?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Yes, I'm going to issue a Six Hour Warning, effective 6 PM Pacific. However, please feel free to start another thread (part 6) to expand on your thoughts.