Spiritual Israel, Christian Israel.....instead of Replacement Theology

[ChrisTheSaved]

Correct

Luke 1:32-33
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (not 1000 years in the millennium), and of His kingdom there will be no end.

Acts 2
Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

John 18:36
My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Matthew 28:18
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth

It's shocking to me how much people want to muddy the waters. Jesus is the only way to the father. The religion of the Jews is now the Son. Why do people want to hold Jews up so high? Should every knee not bend at my Lord Jesus Christ? Are we to ignore the Lords own words in John 14:6? What is the obsession here with keep the Jews separated from us? We are now the Jews......Did Jesus not come to the Jews, did not the Father send his Son, as a Jew, for the Jews? Did they not reject him? Matthew 21:33 is not about the religious leaders, its about the nation as a whole.

 

[agedman]

It's shocking to me how much people want to muddy the waters. Jesus is the only way to the father. The religion of the Jews is now the Son. Why do people want to hold Jews up so high? Should every knee not bend at my Lord Jesus Christ? Are we to ignore the Lords own words in John 14:6? What is the obsession here with keep the Jews separated from us? We are now the Jews......Did Jesus not come to the Jews, did not the Father send his Son, as a Jew, for the Jews? Did they not reject him? Matthew 21:33 is not about the religious leaders, its about the nation as a whole.

There is a difference in the statement that the Jews as a nation rejecting (which they did not, but were purposely blinded so as the Gospel would be carried to the Gentiles without the Jewish traditions and laws (as was almost the case) and the religious leadership rejection.

The religious leadership rejection is what was replaced by the worship of Christ, not the whole nation.

True believers have never (except under covenant theology) kept the Jews from Christ, that is God’s design for now.

Every knee does not nor has bent to Christ.

Such a presentation does not happen at the final judgment either.

The ONLY occurrence found in Scriptures is during the millennial reign.

 

[John of Japan]

Why is the nation of Israel any different than any other nation?

How many answers do you need? Just read your Bible. There are many reasons why Israel is different. Ever hear of the Abrahamic covenant? The Mosaic? The Davidic? All to Jews.

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:1-2).

Not to mention that they gave us the Messiah, the Christ.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

There is a difference in the statement that the Jews as a nation rejecting (which they did not, but were purposely blinded so as the Gospel would be carried to the Gentiles without the Jewish traditions and laws (as was almost the case) and the religious leadership rejection.

The religious leadership rejection is what was replaced by the worship of Christ, not the whole nation.

True believers have never (except under covenant theology) kept the Jews from Christ, that is God’s design for now.

Every knee does not nor has bent to Christ.

Such a presentation does not happen at the final judgment either.

The ONLY occurrence found in Scriptures is during the millennial reign.

I said every knee should bend...don't twist my words like you do the scripture. But everything you just said is mud in the waters of this discussion. You added noting but confusion and distraction to this.

There is not Judaism anymore. We are all to accept Christ, just like Paul did. The Jews all get to go to Hell and burn in a lake of fire until they stop it with man made religion they have created. Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven...period. If the "Jews" and I use that term lightly, as there are not really Jews in Israel, most of them are polish. In fact the vast majority of Jews are converts over history. But even they are welcome to accept Jesus Christ.

 

[agedman]

I said every knee should bend...don't twist my words like you do the scripture. But everything you just said is mud in the waters of this discussion. You added noting but confusion and distraction to this.

It is sad that you think that I am twisting your words considering I didn't quote them other then to cite them in a response.

I will put your accusation of my handling Scripture in this manner.

Search the threads.

Find in some manner that I did "twist" the Scripture.

I hold myself accountable to all that can translate and have a history of teaching such at the graduate level. I regularly appeal to them to alert me of ANY time that I have rendered Scriptures inappropriately.

Can you claim the same?

I ask not out of accusation but by reputation. For, should you in your search find that in some Scripture I have not dealt with it appropriately, then please, by all means, start a thread and display it that I be corrected, that I recant, that I do not enter eternity not having handled the Scriptures as completely valid and with veracity.

However, should you not find such, then I expect you to be a bit more respectful in your response.

There is not Judaism anymore. We are all to accept Christ, just like Paul did. The Jews all get to go to Hell and burn in a lake of fire until they stop it with man made religion they have created. Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven...period. If the "Jews" and I use that term lightly, as there are not really Jews in Israel, most of them are polish. In fact the vast majority of Jews are converts over history. But even they are welcome to accept Jesus Christ.

Here are some immediate thoughts:
1) you apparently do not remember that the Jews are and have been blinded to the Gospel by God.
2) the leadership and their system of worship was being done away, not the promises given under the covenant.
3) a new covenant of worship and expectation was given to the believers of this time.
4) there are Jews in Israel. Such a denial is unworthy of further discussion on that matter.
5) there is no "vast majority of Jewish converts over history." Just the opposite, as Paul stated would be the case.
6) ALL of ALL the world are welcome to believe, but only those given by the Father to the Son will be raised to eternal life.

Now there is one other area that I need to see some clarification.

You stated, "The Jews all get to go to Hell and burn in a lake of fire until they stop it with man made religion they have created."

Are you suggesting the lake of fire is not eternal and has some escape after a period of time in the flames?

Are you suggesting that the worship in which the Jews were given by God was "man made."

Are you suggesting that all Jews are going to hell, which would include the prophets, the Christ and the Apostles?

Perhaps your statement was reactionary, and you could spend a bit of time presenting that which was more clearly stated for those of us who have short term memory problems.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

It is sad that you think that I am twisting your words considering I didn't quote them other then to cite them in a response.

I will put your accusation of my handling Scripture in this manner.

Search the threads.

Find in some manner that I did "twist" the Scripture.

I hold myself accountable to all that can translate and have a history of teaching such at the graduate level. I regularly appeal to them to alert me of ANY time that I have rendered Scriptures inappropriately.

Can you claim the same?

I ask not out of accusation but by reputation. For, should you in your search find that in some Scripture I have not dealt with it appropriately, then please, by all means, start a thread and display it that I be corrected, that I recant, that I do not enter eternity not having handled the Scriptures as completely valid and with veracity.

However, should you not find such, then I expect you to be a bit more respectful in your response.




Here are some immediate thoughts:
1) you apparently do not remember that the Jews are and have been blinded to the Gospel by God.
2) the leadership and their system of worship was being done away, not the promises given under the covenant.
3) a new covenant of worship and expectation was given to the believers of this time.
4) there are Jews in Israel. Such a denial is unworthy of further discussion on that matter.
5) there is no "vast majority of Jewish converts over history. Just the opposite, as Paul stated would be the case.
6) ALL of ALL the world are welcome to believe, but only those given by the Father to the Son will be raised to eternal life.

Now there is one other area that I need to see some clarification.

You stated, "The Jews all get to go to Hell and burn in a lake of fire until they stop it with man made religion they have created."

Are you suggesting the lake of fire is not eternal and has some escape after a period of time in the flames?

Are you suggesting that the worship in which the Jews were given by God was "man made."

Are you suggesting that all Jews are going to hell, which would include the prophets, the Christ and the Apostles?

Perhaps your statement was reactionary, and you could spend a bit of time presenting that which was more clearly stated for those of us who have short term memory problems.

Yawnnn...

You really see what you want to don't you? The Jews don't have to keep going to hell, they can accept Christ. As in each individual Jew has a Choice. Not talking about the Jews before Christ, I'm talking here and now. The day Jesus died on the cross it all changed.

THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

There is not some special system set up for the Jews that allow them to circumvent this process.

Tell me this? When did God change the Bible to allow the Jews to convert to a prayer based system? They have created a man made system of faith for them to follow.

Just so we are clear...Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and oh yea, Jesus.

This stuff you guys go on about.

Jesus was super clear it was him and him alone. Guess who he was talking to? The Jews!

So to conclude this post I'd like to leave you with this closing thought....Jesus.

 

[agedman]

Yawnnn...

You really see what you want to don't you?

Not really.

All I read is what you expose in your own words. When I need further information, I usually ask.

The Jews don't have to keep going to hell, they can accept Christ. As in each individual Jew has a Choice. Not talking about the Jews before Christ, I'm talking here and now. The day Jesus died on the cross it all changed.

This is agreeable, for all people of the world, even those BEFORE Christ died on the Cross.

There is no other name (way) under heaven to be saved was that promise from Genesis 3, fulfilled in the Lord Jesus, and continues to this day (even to the end of the age).

THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

Through or by?

There is not some special system set up for the Jews that allow them to circumvent this process.

Romans 11:

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.​

Tell me this? When did God change the Bible to allow the Jews to convert to a prayer based system? They have created a man made system of faith for them to follow.

Again, Romans 11:

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!​

Just so we are clear...Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and oh yea, Jesus.

This stuff you guys go on about.

Jesus was super clear it was him and him alone. Guess who he was talking to? The Jews!

So to conclude this post I'd like to leave you with this closing thought....Jesus.

Again, perhaps you are being more reactionary then thoughtful.

No one is disputing that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the ONLY way, truth, life, and that nobody comes to the Father but by Him.

No one is disputing that Salvation resides in His good pleasure.

What this thread is about is the discussion of just how or even if the people called the Jews will be included in a mass conversion or if the church has in some manner replaced all promises of God, even those held by Paul and some shown above from Romans.


To conclude this post, the demonic forces know and respect and are subject to the Lord Jesus but that doesn't mean they are redeemed.

Merely being able to say the name, is not redemption. There will always be those who bow to the name, but are not redeemed.

Belief is the key.

John 3 declares that those that believe are not condemned; however, those who don't believe are already condemned.

 

[kyredneck]

If the "Jews" and I use that term lightly, as there are not really Jews in Israel, most of them are polish. In fact the vast majority of Jews are converts over history. But even they are welcome to accept Jesus Christ.

Be bery bery careful with this taboo topic, BB Admin bans folks for speech along these lines.

[add]

...you may want to read up on the findings of human genome research on this.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Be bery bery careful with this taboo topic, BB Admin bans folks for speech along these lines.

[add]

...you may want to read up on the findings of human genome research on this.

I have read that. Of course the mythology is shaky at best....the largest Jewish population shares the most in common with Europeans. It all matters in who you use as a test base. I will leave it alone though. You can't with a straight face say that the Jewish population is closely related to Palestine's when they completely different in appearance.

 

[agedman]

I have read that. Of course the mythology is shaky at best....the largest Jewish population shares the most in common with Europeans. It all matters in who you use as a test base. I will leave it alone though. You can't with a straight face say that the Jewish population is closely related to Palestine's when they completely different in appearance.

Are you saying that Abraham did not have two sons with only one being the son of promise, but both resulting in separate national peoples?

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Are you saying that Abraham did not have two sons with only one being the son of promise, but both resulting in separate national peoples?

What?

 

[kyredneck]

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:1-2).

...you left off the LEAD-IN from the previous chapter to this question:

9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

If Jews and Gentiles are both to be judged, and God is no respecter of persons, and the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of Jews, and if Jews transgress the law then their circumcision becomes uncircumcision, and if Gentiles fulfil the law their uncircumcision becomes circumcision and they will judge the Jews, and Gentiles who neither have the law nor are hearers of the law can 'do by nature' the things of the law because they have the law written in their hearts, and circumcision is of the heart, and those who spiritually inwardly have the law in their hearts and are circumcised in heart are the true Jews:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3

Paul picks up again 'the advantages of the Jews' in chapter 9:

4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

But note this:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

....reiterating what was established in the 2nd chapter, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly", but "he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter".

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

 

[kyredneck]

IOW, it's Spiritual Israel, Christian Israel, not physical Israel, that is the 'Israel of God'.

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

 

[kyredneck]

The truth is, dispensationalists are far more likely than covenant theologians to actively support the nation of Israel.

Why is the nation of Israel any different than any other nation?

Take your pick.

Unconditional support of Israel is kinda like another 'great commission' with them.

 

[agedman]

Take your pick.

Unconditional support of Israel is kinda like another 'great commission' with them.

Thank you for the link

It brought this up in the list.

http://www.dts.edu/download/publications/bibliotheca/DTS-The Future of National Israel.pdf

What is your opinion?

 

[prophecy70]

How many answers do you need? Just read your Bible. There are many reasons why Israel is different. Ever hear of the Abrahamic covenant? The Mosaic? The Davidic? All to Jews.

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:1-2).

Not to mention that they gave us the Messiah, the Christ.

Yes they were filled by Christ! And we became one people in christ!

Galatians 3
26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 9
1But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,a he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtainingb eternal redemption.

Not until a future 1000 years where its brought back!

Continuing on Romans 3
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith inh Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus!

 

[prophecy70]

Ever hear of the Abrahamic covenant? The Mosaic? The Davidic? All to Jews.

Genesis 17
12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.

So they all had to be Jewish to receive the covenant?

Romans 2
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

How can the covenants be for ethnic Jews?

The land is the earth and the inheritance is everyone in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for the link

It brought this up in the list.

http://www.dts.edu/download/publications/bibliotheca/DTS-The Future of National Israel.pdf

What is your opinion?

AG,

Replacement theologians also cite Matthew 21:43 as evidence of God’s permanent rejection of Israel. Jesus told the Pharisees, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruits of it.” DISPE

Ag...this was in the article...what nation is that verse speaking of.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for the link

It brought this up in the list.

http://www.dts.edu/download/publications/bibliotheca/DTS-The Future of National Israel.pdf

What is your opinion?

Now here is a main pillar that sorts this out;

Dispensationalists claim that their interpretational method leads them to maintain a distinction between Israel and the church as well as a future for the nation Israel. “Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation.”35 Ryrie is careful to point out that literal interpretation does not mean misinterpreting figures of speech. Rather, “Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation.”36 Dispensationalists argue that literal or plain interpretation is essen 31 Craig A. Blaising and Darrell L. Bock, Progressive Dispensationalism (Wheaton, IL: Victor, 1993), 21. Genesis 15:18–21 sets forth the extent of the land borders promised to the people of Israel. “On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kerrites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites’ ” tial to the study of Scripture. “If God [is] the originator of language and if the chief purpose of originating it was to convey His message to man, then it must follow that He, being all-wise and all-loving, originated sufficient language to convey all that was in His heart to tell man.”37 This approach guards against the medieval practice of “spiritualizing” a text, giving the text a deeper, spiritual meaning than the words themselves convey.

AG,
This keeps them from examining the truth..... explaining away truth as "spiritualizing".
In order to distinguish themselves further from other theological systems, dispensationalists claim to employ this hermeneutic “consistently and in all study of the Bible.”38 Ice argues, “Israel always and only refers to national Israel. The church will not be substituted for Israel if the grammatical-historical system of interpretation is consistently used because there are no indicators in the text that such is the case.”39 Stemming from this hermeneutic, dispensationalists see the prophecies made to Israel in the Old Testament (that were not literally fulfilled in either the Old or the New Testament) as being fulfilled in the future.

This ignores the Covenant curses that came upon national Israel.

Mt23;

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Martin posted this several times in these threads...

 

[Iconoclast]

Ag,

Classical dispensationalism is marked by a “sharp” distinction between Israel and the church. Ryrie says, “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a man is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. A man who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctions; and one who does, will.”40 Classical dispensationalism holds to a dualistic view of humanity. Israel is seen as God’s “earthly” people, while the church is His “heavenly” people.41

Here again is the issue.

now this;

Every covenant or promise for the church is for a heavenly reality, and she continues in heavenly citizenship when the heavens are recreated.”42 Ryrie modified this somewhat, saying that Israel’s earthly promises are to be fulfilled during the millennial kingdom, by Jews living when the kingdom is inaugurated and by those born during this thousand-year reign. “The earthly future for Israel does not concern Israelites who die before the millennium is set up. The destiny of those who die is different. Believing Israelites of the Mosaic age who died in faith have a heavenly destiny. . . . Jews today who believe in Christ are members of the Church, His body, and their destiny is the same as Gentile believers.”43

A bit of speculation...