Indeed. But just as in politics the majority is tainted by the minority.
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Spiritual Israel, Christian Israel.....instead of Replacement Theology
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Correct!
Indeed!
John,
I am sure there other CT's that have a good working knowledge of Dispensationalism. Having been one myself for over 20 years it was not easy to turn my back on it. Just like changing churches you wind up leaving relationships. I graduated from the Word of Life Bible Institute which still is a Dispensational haven. Talk about becoming persona non grata at one of my Alma Maters! There are former classmates who treat me like a leper, so it was a change that came with a cost.
That said, the change was made out of conviction of what scripture teaches. I hold no animosity or grudges. I am glad we are able to discuss it here like brothers should. Irenic discussions on the BB over controversial subjects is not for the faint of heart. So far this thread is rather tame. I am pleased with that.
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That's sad. I certainly wouldn't reject someone's friendship based on that. Of course, I probably wouldn't ask you to teach prophecy in my church, if I still pastored.
I have noticed that there are plenty of Internet denizens who are nasty towards one or the other theology. Occasionally they wander in here from the wider Internet and try that, but I think the BB is one of the better monitored places around.
I know I can be rough or sarcastic when disagreeing, but I do my best never to attack personally or criticize someone's character. Unfortunately some here take strong disagreement as a personal attack.
You do not exegete one passage by simply listing a bunch of others. JoJ's pet peeve: long lists of verses that supposedly prove something without exegesis.
I made main points in response to your earlier post which was a reply to P70 together with supporting Scripture.
That is 5 points replying to your post which made 10 points.Ian said:
The overriding reason why Israel is different is they are relying on the conditional OC, on the physical types rather than the NC in the blood of Christ the antitype.
Sorry, none of what you said exegeted or even commented on the very clear verses I put forth. So I see no need to further respond.
The only very clear verses you put forth were Rom. 3:1-2. The context makes it clear that the Jews did not benefit from those advantages - rather they were condemned along with the world - the Law gave the knowledge sin.
All, Jew & Gentile, need the same salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
A comment on my previous post would be appreciated.
Yeah. Well, I am not exactly a choir boy. My North Jersey raises its head more than I would like.
Okay
This is a game for points? Didn't know that.
Again, my pet peeve is these long posts with all those Scripture verses which remain uninterpreted but are presumed to make your point. More and more, I answer those less and less. "A verse without a context is a pretext," as the hermeneutics quote goes.
You are being allegorically myopic. Paul gives a list of eight ways the Jews are different and special in Rom. 9:4-5--
(1) "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
(2) and the glory,
(3) and the covenants,
(4) and the giving of the law,
(5) and the service of God,
(6) and the promises;
v5
(7) Whose are the fathers,
(8) and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."
The whole context of Rom. 9-11 shows clearly that Israel and the church are separate--unless you interpret the whole 3 chapters allegorically.
From Joisey, eh? I've preached in NY, Connecticut, and Vermont, but not there. Awesome 2nd hand bookstores in that area of the world.
ChrisTheSaved
Active Member
Okay
This is a game for points? Didn't know that.
Again, my pet peeve is these long posts with all those Scripture verses which remain uninterpreted but are presumed to make your point. More and more, I answer those less and less. "A verse without a context is a pretext," as the hermeneutics quote goes.
You are being allegorically myopic. Paul gives a list of eight ways the Jews are different and special in Rom. 9:4-5--
(1) "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
(2) and the glory,
(3) and the covenants,
(4) and the giving of the law,
(5) and the service of God,
(6) and the promises;
v5
(7) Whose are the fathers,
(8) and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."
The whole context of Rom. 9-11 shows clearly that Israel and the church are separate--unless you interpret the whole 3 chapters allegorically.
All of that means zero John...zero. They are not some special people that get a day pass. Every Jew that has not bended the knee to Jesus is burning in hell. Jesus was talking to the Jews, his ministry was to the Jews. He was super clear that they accepted him or went to hell. He is the only way to the father. But they were and are all evil in there rejection of the Christ. They are anti-Christ.
Anyone who says that the Scripture means zero, means zero to me. さよなら。
Okay
This is a game for points? Didn't know that.
Again, my pet peeve is these long posts with all those Scripture verses which remain uninterpreted but are presumed to make your point. More and more, I answer those less and less. "A verse without a context is a pretext," as the hermeneutics quote goes.
You are being allegorically myopic. Paul gives a list of eight ways the Jews are different and special in Rom. 9:4-5--
(1) "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
(2) and the glory,
(3) and the covenants,
(4) and the giving of the law,
(5) and the service of God,
(6) and the promises;
v5
(7) Whose are the fathers,
(8) and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."
The whole context of Rom. 9-11 shows clearly that Israel and the church are separate--unless you interpret the whole 3 chapters allegorically.
The whole context of Romans 1-16 shows that the Israelites are condemned with the world except they repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Then they become members of the Church - Abraham's children by faith.
Regarding all those wonderful advantages, read Romans 4 where Paul writes, "if ... faith has no value, and the promise is worthless." Chris's zero post is an allusion to that.
Certainly unbelieving Israel and the church are separate, the force of Paul's argument is that they need to repent and believe. Then they become members of the church - children of the promise. Romans 9:8. They truly become "my people. " Romans 9:22-29
No longer separate and lost, but one redeemed people of God - the church, and members of the body of Christ.
These are the amazing privileges and advantages which the Jews had. But Paul continues:
'But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel........that is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed' (Romans 9:6-8). This is in line with Romans 2:28-29 where Paul declares, 'For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.' And again: 'What then? Are we [Jews] any better [than the Gentiles]? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written.........' (Romans 3:9-10).
What Paul is saying is that the Jews have had many great advantages, but unless they respond in faith to the Gospel those advantages will count for nothing, whereas if the Gentiles believe, they will be grafted in to the olive tree of Abraham. 'Know ye therefore that they which are of faith [whether Jew or Gentile] the same are the children of Abraham' (Galatians 3:7). None of this precludes a great revival among the Jews (nor indeed among the Moslems or anyone else), but the Jews will be saved in just the same way as anyone else-- by faith alone.
One olive tree, one people of God, one way of salvation. Believing Jew and believing Gentile together. Unbelieving Jew and unbelieving Gentile also together, but somewhere else.
This extract from Abraham Booth comes from A.W. Pink's book The Divine Covenants:
"It is of great importance to the right interpretation of many passages in the O.T., that this particular be well understood and kept in view. Jehovah is very frequently represented as the Lord and God of all the ancient Israelites; even where it is manifest that the generality of them were considered as destitute of internal piety, and many of them as enormously wicked. How, then, could He be called their Lord and their God, in distinction from His relation to Gentiles (whose Creator, Benefactor, and Sovereign He was), except on the ground of the Sinai covenant? He was their Lord as being their Sovereign, whom, by a federal transaction they were bound to obey, in opposition to every political monarch who should at any time presume to govern them by laws of his own. He was their God, as the only Object of holy worship; and whom, by the same National covenant, they had solemnly engaged to serve according to His own rule, in opposition to every Pagan idol.
"But that National relation between Jehovah and Israel being long since dissolved, and the Jew having no prerogative above the Gentile; the nature of the Gospel economy and of the Messiah’s kingdom absolutely forbids our supposing that either Jews or Gentiles are warranted to call the Universal Sovereign their Lord or their God, if they do not yield willing obedience to Him and perform spiritual worship. It is, therefore, either for want of understanding, or of considering the nature, aspect, and influence of the Sinai Constitution, that many persons dream of the New Covenant in great numbers of places where Moses and the Prophets had no thought of it, but had the Convention at Horeb directly in view. It is owing to the same ignorance, or inadvertency, that others argue from various passages in the O.T. for justification before God by their own obedience, and against the final perseverance of real saints.
"Again, as none but real Christians are the subjects of our Lord’s kingdom, neither adults nor infants can be members of the Gospel Church in virtue of an external covenant or a relative holiness. A striking disparity this, between the Jewish and the Christian Church. A barely relative sanctity [that is, a sanctity accruing from belonging to the nation of God’s choice, A.W.P.] supposes its possessors to be the people of God in a merely external sense; such an external people supposes an external covenant, or one that relates to exterior conduct and temporal blessings; and an external covenant supposes an external king. Now an external king is a political sovereign, but such is not our Lord Jesus Christ, nor yet the Divine Father.
"Under the Gospel Dispensation, these peculiarities have no existence. For Christ has not made an external covenant with any people. He is not the king of any particular nation. He dwells not in a temple made with hands. His throne is in the heavenly sanctuary, nor does He afford His visible presence in any place upon earth. The partition—wall between Jews and Gentiles has long been demolished: and, consequently, our divine Sovereign does not stand related to any people or to any person so as to confer a relative sanctity, or to produce an external holiness.
"The covenant made at Sinai having long been obsolete, all its peculiarities are vanished away: among which, relative sanctity [that is, being accounted externally holy, because belonging to the nation separated unto God, A.W.P.] made a conspicuous figure. That National Constitution being abolished, Jehovah’s political sovereignty is at an end. The Covenant which is now in force, and the royal relation of our Lord to the Church, are entirely spiritual. All that external holiness of persons, of places, and of things, which existed under the old economy, is gone for ever; so that if the professors of Christianity do not possess a real, internal sanctity, they have none at all. The National confederation at Sinai is expressly contrasted in Holy Scripture with the new covenant (see Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:7-13), and though the latter manifestly provides for internal holiness, respecting all the covenantees, yet it says not a word about relative sanctity" (Abraham Booth, 1796).
"It is of great importance to the right interpretation of many passages in the O.T., that this particular be well understood and kept in view. Jehovah is very frequently represented as the Lord and God of all the ancient Israelites; even where it is manifest that the generality of them were considered as destitute of internal piety, and many of them as enormously wicked. How, then, could He be called their Lord and their God, in distinction from His relation to Gentiles (whose Creator, Benefactor, and Sovereign He was), except on the ground of the Sinai covenant? He was their Lord as being their Sovereign, whom, by a federal transaction they were bound to obey, in opposition to every political monarch who should at any time presume to govern them by laws of his own. He was their God, as the only Object of holy worship; and whom, by the same National covenant, they had solemnly engaged to serve according to His own rule, in opposition to every Pagan idol.
"But that National relation between Jehovah and Israel being long since dissolved, and the Jew having no prerogative above the Gentile; the nature of the Gospel economy and of the Messiah’s kingdom absolutely forbids our supposing that either Jews or Gentiles are warranted to call the Universal Sovereign their Lord or their God, if they do not yield willing obedience to Him and perform spiritual worship. It is, therefore, either for want of understanding, or of considering the nature, aspect, and influence of the Sinai Constitution, that many persons dream of the New Covenant in great numbers of places where Moses and the Prophets had no thought of it, but had the Convention at Horeb directly in view. It is owing to the same ignorance, or inadvertency, that others argue from various passages in the O.T. for justification before God by their own obedience, and against the final perseverance of real saints.
"Again, as none but real Christians are the subjects of our Lord’s kingdom, neither adults nor infants can be members of the Gospel Church in virtue of an external covenant or a relative holiness. A striking disparity this, between the Jewish and the Christian Church. A barely relative sanctity [that is, a sanctity accruing from belonging to the nation of God’s choice, A.W.P.] supposes its possessors to be the people of God in a merely external sense; such an external people supposes an external covenant, or one that relates to exterior conduct and temporal blessings; and an external covenant supposes an external king. Now an external king is a political sovereign, but such is not our Lord Jesus Christ, nor yet the Divine Father.
"Under the Gospel Dispensation, these peculiarities have no existence. For Christ has not made an external covenant with any people. He is not the king of any particular nation. He dwells not in a temple made with hands. His throne is in the heavenly sanctuary, nor does He afford His visible presence in any place upon earth. The partition—wall between Jews and Gentiles has long been demolished: and, consequently, our divine Sovereign does not stand related to any people or to any person so as to confer a relative sanctity, or to produce an external holiness.
"The covenant made at Sinai having long been obsolete, all its peculiarities are vanished away: among which, relative sanctity [that is, being accounted externally holy, because belonging to the nation separated unto God, A.W.P.] made a conspicuous figure. That National Constitution being abolished, Jehovah’s political sovereignty is at an end. The Covenant which is now in force, and the royal relation of our Lord to the Church, are entirely spiritual. All that external holiness of persons, of places, and of things, which existed under the old economy, is gone for ever; so that if the professors of Christianity do not possess a real, internal sanctity, they have none at all. The National confederation at Sinai is expressly contrasted in Holy Scripture with the new covenant (see Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:7-13), and though the latter manifestly provides for internal holiness, respecting all the covenantees, yet it says not a word about relative sanctity" (Abraham Booth, 1796).
prophecy70
Active Member
He has a point though, if they do not accept Christ what privilege do they have?
Its never been a ethnic Jewish thing anyways, Remember the mosaic covenant, it was not all Jews who received it. Multitudes of people came out of exodus, not just Jews. Its never been a physical thing but a covenant thing! And now we have a new covenant, in Christ. So what does being a Jew mean?
Exodus 12:38
And a mixed multitude went up also with them
I want to know, when dispensationalist evangelicals preach to jewish people, do they tell them its great you came back to this land, preparing for the 2/3 of you to be slaughtered so a remnant remains? I just cant logically think how Tommy Ice can call people who disagree with him Anti-Zionist, when he believes that.
Romans 11 - 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved...
Who comprise "all Israel" ? Notice Paul writes "and so" not "and then."
Every Jew?
All Abraham's physical descendants through Isaac & Jacob?
7000 reserved Israelites?
The believing elect remnant of Israel?
All the Israelites living when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in?
All the Israelites who weren't blinded?
Proselytes to Judaism included as "Israel."
Or
All the saved Israelites together with all the saved Gentiles down the ages, who as one redeemed people of God comprise "all Israel" - "all families on earth" - "all nations" ? All according to God's unconditional promise to Abraham.
Paul's quote from Isaaiah 59 is future tense because Paul is quoting, not because Israel is still waiting for the Redeemer to come. He came, he kept his covenant, he took away their sins.
prophecy70
Active Member
I think that is pretty clear. I constantly read Tommy Ice responses to all of this, To me, he makes the whole NT be about the Kingdom of Israel. Well to me it is about JESUS.
Hebrews 8
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and saidb :
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Actually, no, the text in chap 2 concerning Jews and Gentiles is all about WORKS, belief is not even mentioned:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
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