Spiritual life

[The Biblicist]

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God? Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst? If so, then how does this spiritual union exist?

Prior to Pentecost Jesus claimed that certain ones had for their spiritual father the Devil - Jn. 8:44-45. Prior to Pentecost Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born again" or else he was merely "born of the flesh" rather than born from God. Do those born of the flesh prior to Pentecost belong to Satan or God? If belong to God at birth then why should Jesus tell an old Man he needs to be born of God. If they belong to God then how come Jesus told certain ones they had Satan as their "father."?

Do people prior to Pentecost have a different problem then those after Pentecost? Do only people after pentecost need to be born of the Spirit while people prior to Pentecost do not need to be born of the Spirit? Can you belong to God rather than Satan without being born of the Spirit? Why then does anyone need to be born of the Spirit if none before Pentecost need to be born of the Spirit?

What spiritual necessity requires to be born of the Spirit if there was no such spiritual necessity prior to Pentecost? What does regeneration obtain for anyone before or after Pentecost that is spiritually necessary to their salvation if it is non-essential to salvation prior to Pentecost?

I am asking these questions and drawing these conclusions especially in regard to those listed in Hebrews 11 who walked "by faith."

 

[Jope]

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God?

Hey Biblicist. It was not a requisite in the BC times as it is now, that the Spirit indwells the saint (Eph. 1:13).

Else we wouldn't have passages specifying the saints of old's interactions with the Spirit. It would be redundant, if interaction with the Spirit was a requisite for a BC saint.

Also, Moses wouldn't have desired the Spirit to be upon all God's people, if it already was:

But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” (Num. 11:29, ESV).​

Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

In the present dispensation, yes.

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst?

He can't. Those who don't have the Spirit of Christ in the present dispensation are "none of his" (Rom. 8:9, KJV).

 

[The Biblicist]

Hey Biblicist. It was not a requisite in the BC times as it is now, that the Spirit indwells the saint (Eph. 1:13).

Else we wouldn't have passages specifying the saints of old's interactions with the Spirit. It would be redundant.

Also, Moses wouldn't have desired the Spirit to be upon all God's people, it it already was.

But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” (Num. 11:29, ESV).​

In the present dispensation, yes.



He can't. Those who don't have the Spirit of Christ in the present dispensation are "none of his" (Rom. 8:9, KJV).

You are avoiding my specific questions and giving answers totally dependent upon a dispensational interpretation of texts that is not necessarily demanded by the texts you refer to.

Please address my questions and conclusion one by one with specific answers rather than giving generalizations due to a dispensational mindset.

 

[Jope]

You are avoiding my specific questions and giving answers totally dependent upon a dispensational interpretation of texts that is not necessarily demanded by the texts you refer to.

...So Moses didn't want the Spirit to be on the saints of old (Num. 11:29)?

Moses' desire demands that the Spirit wasn't upon the saints of old.

 

[The Biblicist]

...So Moses didn't want the Spirit to be on the saints of old (Num. 11:29)?

Moses' desire demands that the Spirit wasn't upon the saints of old.

Again, you are avoding my questions and trying to answer by asking questions. Please take them one by one and give specific answers.

Even in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is given in different senses then indwelling but specializing and equipping men for leadership functions.

 

[The Biblicist]

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God? Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst? If so, then how does this spiritual union exist?

Prior to Pentecost Jesus claimed that certain ones had for their spiritual father the Devil - Jn. 8:44-45. Prior to Pentecost Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born again" or else he was merely "born of the flesh" rather than born from God. Do those born of the flesh prior to Pentecost belong to Satan or God? If belong to God at birth then why should Jesus tell an old Man he needs to be born of God. If they belong to God then how come Jesus told certain ones they had Satan as their "father."?

Do people prior to Pentecost have a different problem then those after Pentecost? Do only people after pentecost need to be born of the Spirit while people prior to Pentecost do not need to be born of the Spirit? Can you belong to God rather than Satan without being born of the Spirit? Why then does anyone need to be born of the Spirit if none before Pentecost need to be born of the Spirit?

What spiritual necessity requires to be born of the Spirit if there was no such spiritual necessity prior to Pentecost? What does regeneration obtain for anyone before or after Pentecost that is spiritually necessary to their salvation if it is non-essential to salvation prior to Pentecost?

I am asking these questions and drawing these conclusions especially in regard to those listed in Hebrews 11 who walked "by faith."

Let me repeat the OP and ask for specific answers to each specific question and conclusion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jope....a word to the wise....dont engage Mark in debate unless you are prepared to get in deep.

Mark, Id love to myself but I am tired so Im taking my own advice....perhaps tomorrow.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jope....a word to the wise....dont engage Mark in debate unless you are prepared to get in deep.

Mark, Id love to myself but I am tired so Im taking my own advice....perhaps tomorrow.

Well, get your rest! My son and his family just came back from a three day camping trip and they looked like they were sleeping with their eyes open - dead tired.

 

[Allan]

You are avoiding my specific questions and giving answers totally dependent upon a dispensational interpretation of texts that is not necessarily demanded by the texts you refer to.

Please address my questions and conclusion one by one with specific answers rather than giving generalizations due to a dispensational mindset.

He answered your questions in a simple and consice manner, you just don't like the answer given.

Your.. questions, can be boiled down to a simple, single question:
Can the OT believers be saved if the Spirit of God did not indwell them like it does the NT believers?

View of dispensation aside, the answer remains the same.

Yes, the OT believers were saved apart from the fact they were not continuously or consistantly 'indwelt' by the Spirit of God. This is found to be eternally true from the scriptures. The Spirit of God came upon some (though not all) and even left them.

Does the Spirit of God do that with you.. take up residence and then leave you completely, (and sometimes come again, and leave again) as it did those in the OT?

Note Samson in the OT. The Spirit came on him and also left him, YET, he was still God's child - a believer. David prayed often to 'not take your Spirit from me'.. why? Because he was afraid of God removing His Spirit as He often did.

The means of salvation (by grace, through faith) has not changed throughout the scriptures, however the depth and display of unity, not unity itself, has changed to something greater, something 'new'.

 

[The Biblicist]

He answered your questions in a simple and consice manner, you just don't like the answer given.

He most certainly did not answer even one question presented and neither do you. Like him you simply jump to pure assumptions based upon a set of very narrow interpretations.

If the view both of you espouse is true then attempt to answer my questions one by one. You can't and you know you can't and that is why you jump right into a very common view that is based upon inferences and assumptions that simply are not true.

In every single case where the Holy Spirit came "upon" someone and then left them it is ALWAYS in regard to special power or wisdom or equipping for an office or removing annointing because of sin.

Does He do that from Pentecost forward? Yes, He most certainly does.

 

[Allan]

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

Yes

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God? Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

The question is a faulty one.
Unity with God in the NT is evidenced by the impartation of the Holy Spirit. However it is the Spirit of God who PLACES us into Christ, not Him in us is our placement in Christ.

Therefore the answer to your question is, No. "No", because union with God did not always demand 'indwelling' as seen in the OT. However under the New Covenant, His indwelling Spirit is evidence and therefore synonmous of that Union.

It is not the Spirit indwelling that makes peace with God, or that establishes righteousness, or that brings us into unity.. it is the Atonement. The Atonement deals with the sin issue (perfection), the Atonement deals with the judgment issue (holiness), and the brings the believer into a relatioship with God Himself whereby His Spirit works in and with believers both in the OT and NT.

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

If by "spiritual life", you mean in/having a relationship with God, then 'Yes'.

If you have some other meaning for 'spiritual life', please explain.

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst? If so, then how does this spiritual union exist?

No, there is no other kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ.
For answers to your questions, See my above statements.

Prior to Pentecost Jesus claimed that certain ones had for their spiritual father the Devil - Jn. 8:44-45. Prior to Pentecost Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born again" or else he was merely "born of the flesh" rather than born from God. Do those born of the flesh prior to Pentecost belong to Satan or God? If belong to God at birth then why should Jesus tell an old Man he needs to be born of God. If they belong to God then how come Jesus told certain ones they had Satan as their "father."?

Those who were God's people were His by grace through faith, not by bloodline or 'born of the flesh'. Israel was God's chosen people group for His purpose(s) as we see in Rom 9:4-5 (as examples), and while it also encompassed salvation as well, it did not make every Jewish born person saved.

Do people prior to Pentecost have a different problem then those after Pentecost? Do only people after pentecost need to be born of the Spirit while people prior to Pentecost do not need to be born of the Spirit? Can you belong to God rather than Satan without being born of the Spirit? Why then does anyone need to be born of the Spirit if none before Pentecost need to be born of the Spirit?

Everyone must be born-again and thus have eternal life (fellowship or relationship with God and Christ), however being born of the Spirit did not always necessitate being 'indwelt' by the Spirit of God till after Pentecost. Again, being 'indwelt' did not make one born-again, in the NT it is one of the evidences for it.

What spiritual necessity requires to be born of the Spirit if there was no such spiritual necessity prior to Pentecost? What does regeneration obtain for anyone before or after Pentecost that is spiritually necessary to their salvation if it is non-essential to salvation prior to Pentecost?

The necessity is the same and didn't change from the OT to the NT. The NT just reveals it to a greater depth.
What I give next is really another discussion but it does link into this one somewhat so I will give you my view on 'regeneration'

I believe you can not be regenerate (which to most reformed minds must include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith. ( have a couple of old threads regarding this very subject)
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH. If the above scriptures are indeed true, then regeneration (which I agree does in fact deal with justification, sanctification, indwelling, and propitiation) is not prior to faith but after or in the moment of it.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

It is not about US regenerating ourselves nor saving ourselves so please don't go there (it is a snipett from one of my threads).. regeneration / salvation is the work of God, however the word itself is used specifically and synonomously with born-again, eternal life, and saved. Regerenation refers to the process of salvation via justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5); born-again refers to time of the event (John 3); Salvation refers to the totality of the event; eternal life refers to the relational aspect of it (John 17:3).

I am asking these questions and drawing these conclusions especially in regard to those listed in Hebrews 11 who walked "by faith."

Not sure what you are looking for but it 'appears' to be that you presume being indwelt with the Spirit is the action that makes a person born-again, when biblically it is not. It is the Atonement/Propitiation that makes one being born-again possible and factual, and it is 'work of the Spirit' that places us 'in God/Christ' (1 Cor 12:13) with regard TO the Atonement and faith placed in it (Rom 3:15).

If I'm wrong about my presumption of your view from your post, my apologies.

 

[Allan]

He most certainly did not answer even one question presented and neither do you. Like him you simply jump to pure assumptions based upon a set of very narrow interpretations.

If the view both of you espouse is true then attempt to answer my questions one by one. You can't and you know you can't and that is why you jump right into a very common view that is based upon inferences and assumptions that simply are not true.

In every single case where the Holy Spirit came "upon" someone and then left them it is ALWAYS in regard to special power or wisdom or equipping for an office or removing annointing because of sin.

Does He do that from Pentecost forward? Yes, He most certainly does.

Wow, your arogance and ignorance (more specifically of me) are quite large.

Can you show scripture that states the OT saints were 'indwelt' by the Spirit?

I know that Jesus stated the imparting of the Spirit, who was to continue with them, was something God had not done previously. Please show YOUR view by scripture and not presuppositions derived from a theological construct.

 

[Allan]

Duplicate posting

 

[The Biblicist]

Wow, your arogance and ignorance (more specifically of me) are quite large.

Just because I disagreed with you is no reason to get personal and attack my person. It may turn out that you are the one who is really ignorant here and not I.

Can you show scripture that states the OT saints were 'indwelt' by the Spirit?

Yes! However, your theoloical construct interprets them as special cases and thus invalidates these clearly stated examples scattered throughout the Old Testament.

 

[The Biblicist]

I appreciate you at least attempting to answer my questions one by one. That is a sure good start.

The question is a faulty one.
Unity with God in the NT is evidenced by the impartation of the Holy Spirit. However it is the Spirit of God who PLACES us into Christ, not Him in us is our placement in Christ.

Your answer produces more problems then it answers.

1. Is there salvation for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE of Christ?

2. Are those "chosen in him" before the foundation of the world restricted to Post-Pentecost saved - Eph. 1:4? Hence, God has TWO different plans of salvation prior to the world???

3. Are you saying there was no spiritual "unity" between any human being and God from Genesis to acts 2:1?

4. If your position were true then non-placement into Christ would be the cause of being "alienated from the life of God" in Ephesians 4:18 but that is not the reason Paul gives there.

5. Is your "unity" equal to "union" or something else? If it is equal then does not that demand by your interpretation that there were no human beings from Genesis to Acts 2 who were in "unity" with God? What is the opposite of "unity"?????

6. How could they "walk" with God and yet not "walk IN the Spirit"? Is there a third type of human being? One who is not "in the flesh" but not "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9) and yet God can claim them as His?

I have to leave for town but will be back to finish this.

 

[The Biblicist]

Therefore the answer to your question is, No. "No", because union with God did not always demand 'indwelling' as seen in the OT.

This is pure assumption based upon a theological construct. You are making a circular argument. You base you conclusion on the very thing you must first yet prove to be true. You have not proved it to be true.

However under the New Covenant, His indwelling Spirit is evidence and therefore synonmous of that Union.

First, how can "indwelling" be mere "evidence....of that union" without being essential to that union? If this is a "spiritual" union it must be some kind of union between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God or it is no "union" at all!

Are you speaking of the "new" covenant as a visible administration (Heb. 9:1) consisting of a PUBLIC house of God, PUBLIC qualfied ministry, PUBLIC qualified ordinances OR are you speaking of "the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" (Heb. 13:20) which is immediate and direct application by God to all the elect in all ages of those things merely declared in the public administration? Do you make a distinction between the "old" and "new" covenants as PUBLIC ADMINISTRATIONS versus the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" which is administered directly by God to his elect???

It is not the Spirit indwelling that makes peace with God,

We are not speaking about "peace" with God but "spiritural" union with God. The Atonement does not bring "peace" between God and man experientially except through justification (Rom. 5:1-2) and we are not speaking of justification but regeneration which is the only aspect of salvation in time and space where any kind of "spiritual" union is accomplished. The atonement as an ACT was performed by Christ in his ministry on earth. The atonement APPLIED is in regard to justification by faith NOT REGENERATION. Regeneration is something man cannot participate in its accomplishment (Jn. 1:13) but the act of the Spirit of God where by man is passive. Man is active in justification by faith but passive in regeneration as it is a CREATIVE work by God within that brings life out of death.

or that establishes righteousness, or that brings us into unity.. it is the Atonement.

The atonment does not bring us into "spiritual" unity with God! The atonement brings us into LEGAL unity with God as it satisfies the LEGAL demands of the Law against us (Rom. 3:24-26) which are applied to us personally in time and space through justification by faith (Rom. 5:1-2) thus attaining peace between God and the believer. This is not "spiritual" unity but legal unity. You are confusing the two and they should not be confused.

The Atonement deals with the sin issue (perfection), the Atonement deals with the judgment issue (holiness), and the brings the believer into a relatioship with God Himself whereby His Spirit works in and with believers both in the OT and NT.

The atonement deals with the LEGAL issues of sin not the actual condition of sin in the believer as that is dealt with by regeneration and progressive sanctification by the Spirit.

If by "spiritual life", you mean in/having a relationship with God, then 'Yes'.

Here is your real problem! You have to take the position that all men living prior to Pentecost were not only spiritually dead but could not obtain eternal life as that is obtained only through spiritual union with God - the opposite of spiritual death! Your position denies the possibiltiy of "union" between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God and thus denies the possibility of spiritual life. "Union" by its very nature demands it is an internal CONTINUOUS spiritual state or there is no SPIRITUAL "union" at all.

No, there is no other kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ.

This is another huge problem to your position. You define "in Christ" to be "in the Spirit" which Paul demands that means INDWELLING by the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Hence, according to your position, if consistent, you must deny none could be saved previous to Pentecost as none could be "in Christ" since there is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ. Your position collapses on itself.

Your view on the order of regeneration versus conversion is not the subject of this OP nor does it matter in this discussion.

Those who were God's people were His by grace through faith, not by bloodline or 'born of the flesh'. Israel was God's chosen people group for His purpose(s) as we see in Rom 9:4-5 (as examples), and while it also encompassed salvation as well, it did not make every Jewish born person saved.

Abraham preceded Israel and the Mosaic law and is given to us as "the father" of ALL WHO BELIEVE and we have a whole list of them in Hebrews 11 who lived BEFORE Israel or Moses. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and Christ is the author of faith (heb. 12:1-2). We have the explicit statement in Hebrews 4:2 that only those who fell under judgment in the wilderness did not believe as the word was not mixed with faith in them - meaning it was mixed in faith with those who did not fall - hence all Israel is not of Israel at any period in time - only twice born Jews are "of Israel."

Moreover, before Pentecost Nicodemus was told that He must be born of the Spirit and rebuked for not knowing this as a teacher of the OLD testament scriptures (Jn. 3:3,11). This totally goes against your position as the theological construct usually denies the new birth by the Spirit occured previous to Pentecost.

Everyone must be born-again and thus have eternal life (fellowship or relationship with God and Christ), however being born of the Spirit did not always necessitate being 'indwelt' by the Spirit of God till after Pentecost. Again, being 'indwelt' did not make one born-again, in the NT it is one of the evidences for it.

First, provide Biblical evidence in Genesis to Malichi that the new birth by the Spirit occurred? Yes, I believe it did, but provide the scriptures to prove it? You will find just a few, very few. Hence, the scarcity of Old Testament scriptures does not deny it was a fact, otherwise there is no rational ground for Jesus to rebuke Nicodemus concerning the necessity of new birth by the Spirit.

Not sure what you are looking for but it 'appears' to be that you presume being indwelt with the Spirit is the action that makes a person born-again, when biblically it is not.

It is impossible for regeneration to occur within the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) of man without "union" to also occur as it is within the human spirit that regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs, thus union is the essential byproduct of regenertion. Regeneration includes more than mere union of the human "spirit" and the Divine Spirit but it is impossible without spiritual union as it is "union" between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit that IS SPIRITUAL LIFE within.

It is the Atonement/Propitiation that makes one being born-again possible and factual,

But we are not talking about the LEGAL GROUNDS for regeneration and justification as the atonement occurred on the cross not during your life. Spiritual union and indwelling occur in your lifespan and is the work of the Spirit while the atonement is the work of the Son - You are confusing these and they should not be confused. The atonement has NOTHING to do EXPERIENTIALLY with regeneration. It is the LEGAL BASIS for justification and thus the basis for "peace" between God and the believer (Rom. 5:1) but it has nothing to do with "spiritual" union only "LEGAL" union.

and it is 'work of the Spirit' that places us 'in God/Christ' (1 Cor 12:13) with regard TO the Atonement and faith placed in it (Rom 3:15).

Again you are confusing the LEGAL BASIS for regeneration with the ACT of regeneration which is completely spiritual in character.

We are not speaking about the LEGAL BASIS for salvation but the SPIRITUAL ACT of salvation or the work of the Spirit WITHIN the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6).

 

[The Biblicist]

This is pure assumption based upon a theological construct. You are making a circular argument. You base you conclusion on the very thing you must first yet prove to be true. You have not proved it to be true.



First, how can "indwelling" be mere "evidence....of that union" without being essential to that union? If this is a "spiritual" union it must be some kind of union between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God or it is no "union" at all!

Are you speaking of the "new" covenant as a visible administration (Heb. 9:1) consisting of a PUBLIC house of God, PUBLIC qualfied ministry, PUBLIC qualified ordinances OR are you speaking of "the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" (Heb. 13:20) which is immediate and direct application by God to all the elect in all ages of those things merely declared in the public administration? Do you make a distinction between the "old" and "new" covenants as PUBLIC ADMINISTRATIONS versus the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" which is administered directly by God to his elect???




We are not speaking about "peace" with God but "spiritural" union with God. The Atonement does not bring "peace" between God and man experientially except through justification (Rom. 5:1-2) and we are not speaking of justification but regeneration which is the only aspect of salvation in time and space where any kind of "spiritual" union is accomplished.





The atonment does not bring us into "spiritual" unity with God! The atonement brings us into LEGAL unity with God as it satisfies the LEGAL demands of the Law against us (Rom. 3:24-26) which are applied to us personally in time and space through justification by faith (Rom. 5:1-2) thus attaining peace between God and the believer. This is not "spiritual" unity but legal unity. You are confusing the two and they should not be confused.




The atonement deals with the LEGAL issues of sin not the actual condition of sin in the believer as that is dealt with by regeneration and progressive sanctification by the Spirit.





Here is your real problem! You have to take the position that all men living prior to Pentecost were not only spiritually dead but could not obtain eternal life as that is obtained only through spiritual union with God - the opposite of spiritual death! Your position denies the possibiltiy of "union" between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God and thus denies the possibility of spiritual life. "Union" by its very nature demands it is an internal CONTINUOUS spiritual state or there is no SPIRITUAL "union" at all.



This is another huge problem to your position. You define "in Christ" to be "in the Spirit" which Paul demands that means INDWELLING by the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Hence, according to your position, if consistent, you must deny none could be saved previous to Pentecost as none could be "in Christ" since there is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ. Your position collapses on itself.

Your view on the order of regeneration versus conversion is not the subject of this OP nor does it matter in this discussion.





Abraham preceded Israel and the Mosaic law and is given to us as "the father" of ALL WHO BELIEVE and we have a whole list of them in Hebrews 11 who lived BEFORE Israel or Moses. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and Christ is the author of faith (heb. 12:1-2). We have the explicit statement in Hebrews 4:2 that only those who fell under judgment in the wilderness did not believe as the word was not mixed with faith in them - meaning it was mixed in faith with those who did not fall - hence all Israel is not of Israel at any period in time - only twice born Jews are "of Israel."

Moreover, before Pentecost Nicodemus was told that He must be born of the Spirit and rebuked for not knowing this as a teacher of the OLD testament scriptures (Jn. 3:3,11). This totally goes against your position as the theological construct usually denies the new birth by the Spirit occured previous to Pentecost.



First, provide Biblical evidence in Genesis to Malichi that the new birth by the Spirit occurred? Yes, I believe it did, but provide the scriptures to prove it? You will find just a few, very few. Hence, the scarcity of Old Testament scriptures does not deny it was a fact, otherwise there is no rational ground for Jesus to rebuke Nicodemus concerning the necessity of new birth by the Spirit.







It is impossible for regeneration to occur within the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) of man without "union" to also occur as it is within the human spirit that regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs, thus union is the essential byproduct of regenertion. Regeneration includes more than mere union of the human "spirit" and the Divine Spirit but it is impossible without spiritual union as it is "union" between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit that IS SPIRITUAL LIFE within.







But we are not talking about the LEGAL GROUNDS for regeneration and justification as the atonement occurred on the cross not during your life. Spiritual union and indwelling occur in your lifespan and is the work of the Spirit while the atonement is the work of the Son - You are confusing these and they should not be confused. The atonement has NOTHING to do EXPERIENTIALLY with regeneration. It is the LEGAL BASIS for justification and thus the basis for "peace" between God and the believer (Rom. 5:1) but it has nothing to do with "spiritual" union only "LEGAL" union.




Again you are confusing the LEGAL BASIS for regeneration with the ACT of regeneration which is completely spiritual in character.

We are not speaking about the LEGAL BASIS for salvation but the SPIRITUAL ACT of salvation or the work of the Spirit WITHIN the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6).

Let me state this in its simplest manner. There is no spiritual life in the human spirit except by "union" with the Spirit of God WITHIN man. That "union" must be CONTINUOUS by nature or it is not in "union" but disconnected/separated which by definition is spiritual death. That very continuous union IS the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God or else there is no "spiritual" union existent at all between the human spirit and God.

This is precisely why Paul provides only two possible classfications of human beings existent - those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" as there is no possible third option - Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Allan]

Just because I disagreed with you is no reason to get personal and attack my person. It may turn out that you are the one who is really ignorant here and not I.

The ignorance statement (as I pointed out) is in relation to you knowledge or understanding of me and my position, nothing about your position and knowledge thereof.
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Yes! However, your theoloical construct interprets them as special cases and thus invalidates these clearly stated examples scattered throughout the Old Testament.

We shall see

 

[Allan]

This is pure assumption based upon a theological construct. You are making a circular argument. You base you conclusion on the very thing you must first yet prove to be true. You have not proved it to be true.

Assumption would mean I have nothing (or any proof) to base my view upon, and you I have given you 'some' scriptures to begin to lay out my view.

No, I have given my conclusion based on something I showed you already. You might not agree but that does not mean it was not proven true. Besides, you have yet to even prove your hypothesis is true. You have only asked questions and commented on others statements.

First, how can "indwelling" be mere "evidence....of that union" without being essential to that union? If this is a "spiritual" union it must be some kind of union between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God or it is no "union" at all!

Who said anything about it being 'mere' evidence? I simply stated it is one of the evidences, not that this is all it entails.

Are you speaking of the "new" covenant as a visible administration (Heb. 9:1) consisting of a PUBLIC house of God, PUBLIC qualfied ministry, PUBLIC qualified ordinances OR are you speaking of "the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" (Heb. 13:20) which is immediate and direct application by God to all the elect in all ages of those things merely declared in the public administration? Do you make a distinction between the "old" and "new" covenants as PUBLIC ADMINISTRATIONS versus the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" which is administered directly by God to his elect???

Not to the extent you are trying to take it. The old and new Covenants are not about public administrations only, though it is involved.

We are not speaking about "peace" with God but "spiritural" union with God.

If you are speaking of 'spiritual union' with God then you are talking about peace. If you do not have peace with God (which is brought about through the Atonement) you have no spiritual union with God. If you have a spiritual union with God then you have peace with God. You cannot have one without the other. To have one is to have the other because they both reflect both a persons spiritual condition and position.

The Atonement does not bring "peace" between God and man experientially except through justification (Rom. 5:1-2) and we are not speaking of justification but regeneration which is the only aspect of salvation in time and space where any kind of "spiritual" union is accomplished.

Funny, regeneration is to make one alive (and as you pointed out one is alive only 'in Christ').. therefore to speak of regeneration IS to speak of justification or salvation because one cannot be 'in' Christ Jesus and at the same time be in unrepentant sin. What fellowship does light have with darkness, or Christ with belial? Please show scripture that states God unites Himself with to an unrepentant sinner. Unite or coming into union with - making that person one with Him. How can holiness allow in it's presence that which is unholy?

Secondly, the Atonement does in fact bring 'peace' with God because it removes the very sin (and judgement against it) that caused the separation from God. Therefore it is in fact 'experientially' obtained since through it we are united with and in Christ Jesus.

Justification is apart of regeneration.

The atonement as an ACT was performed by Christ in his ministry on earth. The atonement APPLIED is in regard to justification by faith NOT REGENERATION. Regeneration is something man cannot participate in its accomplishment (Jn. 1:13) but the act of the Spirit of God where by man is passive. Man is active in justification by faith but passive in regeneration as it is a CREATIVE work by God within that brings life out of death.

Again, regeneration involves justification (and sanctification) pure and simple - Titus 3:5

Who said we participate in regeneration? I agree whole heartedly that man is passive in regeneration, we cannot make ourselves regenerate.

The atonment does not bring us into "spiritual" unity with God! The atonement brings us into LEGAL unity with God as it satisfies the LEGAL demands of the Law against us (Rom. 3:24-26) which are applied to us personally in time and space through justification by faith (Rom. 5:1-2) thus attaining peace between God and the believer. This is not "spiritual" unity but legal unity. You are confusing the two and they should not be confused.

A difference without a distinction.
The Atonement brings us into legal unity but not spiritual? what is kind of statement is that? There is no difference between the two, in that to be legally declared in union with God is to be officially declared in union with God. Both refer to the positional and relational issue of the two parties. To not be legally in unity with God means I have no union with Him. One is not legally in unity with God without simultaneously being in 'spiritual' union with Him.

The atonement deals with the LEGAL issues of sin not the actual condition of sin in the believer as that is dealt with by regeneration and progressive sanctification by the Spirit.

Yes, and without it there is not regeneration or sanctification. They do not operate independently of each other in salvation, they work conjunctively. As such, the Atonement is critical regarding unity/union with God because without there can be 'NO' union with God.

Regeneration deals with both justification and sanctification.

....Sorry so long.. part 2 is in the next post...

 

[Allan]

Here is your real problem! You have to take the position that all men living prior to Pentecost were not only spiritually dead but could not obtain eternal life as that is obtained only through spiritual union with God - the opposite of spiritual death! Your position denies the possibiltiy of "union" between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God and thus denies the possibility of spiritual life. "Union" by its very nature demands it is an internal CONTINUOUS spiritual state or there is no SPIRITUAL "union" at all.

Apparently you either didn't read what wrote or you just choose to add in some things I never stated not implied to create a straw-man. I have never denied the possibility of "union" between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God and in fact I state just that. However what I did state is that the 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit is not necessary to have union with God. Man in God is Man in union with God. In the OT God presence among His people is God with them, directing them, giving them comfort, and disciple. God working upon His people with His Spirit further proves the point of the relationship or union God has with them. (and much more as well).

This is another huge problem to your position. You define "in Christ" to be "in the Spirit" which Paul demands that means INDWELLING by the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Hence, according to your position, if consistent, you must deny none could be saved previous to Pentecost as none could be "in Christ" since there is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ. Your position collapses on itself.

nope but I do deny your take on it. Your spin does not take into account the argument before you but instead adlibs to it.

Again, Pre- Post positions about the indwelling of the Spirit. Show me where Paul quotes the OT or references it to illustrate that the OT saints were indwelt as we are. Funny thing is, many Reformed hold to both positions.

Your view on the order of regeneration versus conversion is not the subject of this OP nor does it matter in this discussion.

Yes, it actually does matter quite a bit as the above shows. However (If you go back and read) I already stated it was really just a side issue or another issue.

Abraham preceded Israel and the Mosaic law and is given to us as "the father" of ALL WHO BELIEVE and we have a whole list of them in Hebrews 11 who lived BEFORE Israel or Moses. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and Christ is the author of faith (heb. 12:1-2). We have the explicit statement in Hebrews 4:2 that only those who fell under judgment in the wilderness did not believe as the word was not mixed with faith in them - meaning it was mixed in faith with those who did not fall - hence all Israel is not of Israel at any period in time - only twice born Jews are "of Israel."

Who has stated otherwise? However there is, as you note, God's chosen nation, and God's elect people. Two distinct groups though one is primarily from the main grouping (ethnic Israel)