Spiritual life

[The Biblicist]

If you are speaking of 'spiritual union' with God then you are talking about peace.

No you are not talking about peace because peace does not originate from "spiritual union" but from justification and spiritual union is not justification and the Bible specially attributes "peace" with God to justification not spiritual union (Rom. 5:1). There is no scripture that claims "peace" occurs by spiritual union. That is purely your imagination. If not, then produce the Scripture that declares "peace" is obtained by "spiritual union" or by "regeneration"! No inferences based upon mental gymnatistics please! Clear unambiguous statements of Scripture please!

If you do not have peace with God (which is brought about through the Atonement)

The atonement is the legal basis for ALL OF SALVATION including glorification and thus all of salvation, past, present and future "is brought about through the atonement." However, that aspect of salvation responsible for "peace with God" IN TIME AND SPACE of the elect is not the ACT of atonement but the APPLICATION of the atonement aspect of salvation called "justification by faith" (Rom. 5:1) whereby we are "reconciled" with God IN TIME AND SPACE.

Spiritual union is not the aspect of salvation obtained by atonement whereby we have "peace with God" but rather it is that aspect of salvation by the atonemetn whereby we obtain the LIFE OF GOD. Connected with each other? yes! The same? No! But that is the mental gymnastics you are trying to invent.

you have no spiritual union with God. If you have a spiritual union with God then you have peace with God. You cannot have one without the other. To have one is to have the other because they both reflect both a persons spiritual condition and position.

This is not the issue. The issue is they are not ONE AND THE SAME! Just because they have a cause and effect relationship or because you cannot have one without the other does not mean they are the same or perform the same thing or obtain the same thing. I will not enter into this muddle of confusion you are trying to invent.

I really detest vain arguments and that is why I am simply ignoring most of your reponses. Let's get to the real heart of the glaring error in this discussion and everything else will take care of itself.

Regeneration is quickening making alive but it is more as the very text you quote (Tit. 3:5) and the passage I quoted (Eph. 4:18) demonstrates this clearly.

However, we have already agreed that spiritual death is spiritual separation from God - that is there is separation between our human spirit and the Spirit of God and that is why we are alienated from the life of God - eternal life.

Hence, quickening is the opposite of spritiual separation and thus SPIRITUAL UNION between the human spirit and the Spirit of God is the opposite of spiritual separation. Unless, my memory does not serve me correctly you have already agreed to this in a previous post. Anything IN UNION is without disconnect/separation and that means the human spirit is without disconnect with the Spirit of God or else SPIRITUAL SEPARATION is the only possible alternative and that is SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Therefore, it is impossible to be in spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of God and not be indwelt by the Spirit THROUGH THAT UNION. Utterly impossible! If that indwelling by SPIRITUAL UNION is not present then SPIRIUTAL DEATH is present.

Therefore, either all prior to Pentecost were SPIRITUAL DEAD and no possibility of SPIRITUAL UNION or as your doctrine demands they were sometimes Spirituallly alive and other times Spiritually dead like a yo yo!


Last, justification is a LEGAL FORENSIC term and LEGAL action that occurs IN HEAVEN not in man as it regards the CHANGE OF HIS LEGAL POSITION before God's law not THE CHANGE OF HIS INTERNAL PERSON as his person is still SINFUL while his position before God is SINLESS. Jusifiication by faith in the atonement (His blood - Rom. 3:24-25) is the LEGAL PROPIATION/SATISFACTION of his sins before God but does not remove his sin within his PERSON. This LEGAL POSITION before God obtains "peace" with God (Rom. 5:1) but it IS not the change of man's condition. It may be the CAUSE or CONSEQUENCE (depending on your soteriology) but it is not regeneration.

Regeneration is not justification as regeneration does not refer to his POSITION legally before God but to his PERSONAL CONDITION in regard to his "spirit" NOT HIS BODY nor his soul as what is born of "Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). This has to do with his INWARD man not his OUTWARD MAN.

You cannot claim that atonement, justification and regeneration are one and the same as they are not. You can only place them in either a chronological cause and effect relationshp or a logical cause and effect relationship but you cannot say one IS the other. Neither can you claim that simply because you cannot have one without the other that they are interchangable or that they do not have distinct separate functions and obtain distinct separate aspects of salvation. However, that is precisely the kind of muddle you are presenting.

 

[Van]

Stating the Obvious

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

We are made alive "together with Christ". So we are separated from God before we are placed in Christ.

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God? Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

Yes everyone God puts "in Christ" is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, thus we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

Here is the Calvinist hook, claiming that without being indwelt means no "spiritual life." If an OT Saint gained approval through faith that means they led spiritual godly lives, even though they were dead in their trespasses and sins. No need to blur the line between believing in God, trusting in God and striving to follow God, with being born anew. The OT saints had not been born anew, because Christ had not become their propitiation or means of salvation yet. However, they were chosen and set apart in Abraham's bosom until Christ took them to Heaven.

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst? If so, then how does this spiritual union exist?

Again the OT saints gained approval through faith, but had not been placed in Christ.

Prior to Pentecost Jesus claimed that certain ones had for their spiritual father the Devil - Jn. 8:44-45. Prior to Pentecost Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born again" or else he was merely "born of the flesh" rather than born from God. Do those born of the flesh prior to Pentecost belong to Satan or God? If belong to God at birth then why should Jesus tell an old Man he needs to be born of God. If they belong to God then how come Jesus told certain ones they had Satan as their "father."?

More mixing together different illustrations. Being the son of the devil, or having the devil as the father, means a person is under the influence of the devil, rather than under the influence of God. This has nothing to do with the discussion of our New Covenant spiritual union with Christ. We were all "made sinners" i.e. conceived in a separated from God sinful state.

Do people prior to Pentecost have a different problem then those after Pentecost? Do only people after pentecost need to be born of the Spirit while people prior to Pentecost do not need to be born of the Spirit? Can you belong to God rather than Satan without being born of the Spirit? Why then does anyone need to be born of the Spirit if none before Pentecost need to be born of the Spirit?

The OT saints were set apart in Abraham's bosom, still separated from God. None had gone to heaven. None had been spiritually placed in Christ and baptized into His death, and undergone the circumcision of Christ. That all occurred when Christ led them captive to heaven.

What spiritual necessity requires to be born of the Spirit if there was no such spiritual necessity prior to Pentecost?

There was a spiritual necessity to be born anew to enter heaven. That is why they were set apart in Abraham's bosom.

What does regeneration obtain for anyone before or after Pentecost that is spiritually necessary to their salvation if it is non-essential to salvation prior to Pentecost?

No one was "born anew" "regenerated" "placed in Christ" or made alive together with Christ before Christ died on the cross. Thus the OT Saints were set apart because they gained approval through faith, in Abraham's bosom.

 

[The Biblicist]

We are made alive "together with Christ". So we are separated from God before we are placed in Christ.

Yes everyone God puts "in Christ" is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, thus we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

Thus far you are logical and scriptural. Thus far you have no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ but only "in Christ." But you quickly leave this from this point forward and advocate a salvation OUTSIDE of Christ by all your following arguments.

Here is the Calvinist hook, claiming that without being indwelt means no "spiritual life."

This may be an argument against "dispensationalism" but it certainly has nothing to do with a "Calvinist hook" or Calvinism whatsoever. If you think it does I would like you to explain in what connection as I see no connetion nor am I attempting to make any connection with Calvinism or Arminianism at all.

The OT saints had not been born anew, because Christ had not become their propitiation or means of salvation yet.

You are at least consistent with your view point unlike Allen. However, I do not need to go any further with you as we have nothing in common from this point forward with each other nor do many Baptists. However, you are proof of what I told Allen and I hope he will see where his position must logically lead him to.

 

[Allan]

No you are not talking about peace because peace does not originate from "spiritual union" but from justification and spiritual union is not justification and the Bible specially attributes "peace" with God to justification not spiritual union (Rom. 5:1).

Oh goodness. You cannot have spiritual union with God apart from justification through Christ Jesus, in faith. Ergo, you cannot have peace with God, in God, apart from justification. And yes, while peace is derived from justification it pertains 'experentially' with being in union with God. Ergo, you cannot have spiritual union with God apart from Justification, FROM WHICH our peace comes because we are in union with God. In other words, and I will say it once more for you cause you seem to be not getting it - You CANNOT have spiritual union apart from justification in Christ through faith.
There is NOTHING in scripture that states we come into spiritual union with God apart from Justification by faith (and you have not provided once, one piece of scripture for your postulation). I know the rhetoric, but I have found no scripture. Show something rather than just making statements to actually confirm your suppositions.

There is no scripture that claims "peace" occurs by spiritual union. That is purely your imagination. If not, then produce the Scripture that declares "peace" is obtained by "spiritual union" or by "regeneration"! No inferences based upon mental gymnatistics please! Clear unambiguous statements of Scripture please!

You seem to be doing all the mental gymnastics, cause you are not arguing my statements but your own concoction of what I'm saying. Us coming into spiritual union with God is the peace we obtain through justification. I have said this time and again. As in my previous post:

If you are speaking of 'spiritual union' with God then you are talking about peace. If you do not have peace with God (which is brought about through the Atonement [justification]) you have no spiritual union with God. If you have a spiritual union with God then you have peace with God. You cannot have one without the other. To have one is to have the other because they both reflect both a persons spiritual condition and position.

end of my quote

The atonement is the legal basis for ALL OF SALVATION including glorification and thus all of salvation, past, present and future "is brought about through the atonement." However, that aspect of salvation responsible for "peace with God" IN TIME AND SPACE of the elect is not the ACT of atonement but the APPLICATION of the atonement aspect of salvation called "justification by faith" (Rom. 5:1) whereby we are "reconciled" with God IN TIME AND SPACE.

Who has said otherwise.. are you even reading my posts?? :BangHead:
It is that justification that bring peace with God and therefore - spiritual union because the two can now become one. There is no spiritual union with God apart from Justification - PERIOD. If so, please show scripture.. thus far you are silent.

Spiritual union is not the aspect of salvation obtained by atonement whereby we have "peace with God" but rather it is that aspect of salvation by the atonemetn whereby we obtain the LIFE OF GOD. Connected with each other? yes! The same? No! But that is the mental gymnastics you are trying to invent.

Then put up the scriptures.. thus far the bible is contradicting you.
There is no mental gymnastics, though it seems to be a great slight of hand magic show by you in saying union with God brings life before Justification that brings peace, non-sense.
Justification brings peace BECAUSE it has allowed us to be united with Christ. Not that we are united with Christ so we can eventually have peace. That is pure non-sense. It goes against scripture which states that 'life is in Christ' and we cannot be in Christ while still in our sins. We cannot obtain 'life' without without repentance and faith (john 3:16; Rom 10:9-10, etc...)
There isn't two types of spiritual life in scripture.. both spiritual life and eternal or everlasting life are the same thing - a relationship with God and Christ Jesus.

This is not the issue. The issue is they are not ONE AND THE SAME! Just because they have a cause and effect relationship or because you cannot have one without the other does not mean they are the same or perform the same thing or obtain the same thing. I will not enter into this muddle of confusion you are trying to invent.

I never said they were the SAME THING. If you desire to debate, PLEASE use what the other person says and not your perception or preconceived ideas. I said you cannot have one without the other. That is not the same as saying they are one and the same.
If you don't wish to enter the muddled water then stop muddying the water and stick with what I'm saying. You can leave the discussion if you like but if your gonna put a view out here in the debate section then you need to be prepared to actually debate and not concoct erroneous views the other person isn't even saying
I'm stating your erroneous view of spiritual union prior to justification is entirely flawed and biblically incorrect. The two are distinct aspects of salvation but directly related to and a part of each other as they happen simultaneously due to one producing the effect of the other.

I really detest vain arguments and that is why I am simply ignoring most of your reponses. Let's get to the real heart of the glaring error in this discussion and everything else will take care of itself.

So do I and yet I'm trying to work with you.

Regeneration is quickening making alive but it is more as the very text you quote (Tit. 3:5) and the passage I quoted (Eph. 4:18) demonstrates this clearly.

Titus shows that you cannot have regeneration apart from justification and sanctification - period. It tells you so right there. Regeneration is only used twice in scripture, one is relating to the future of the saved and creation, and one relates to salvation.
Eph 4:18 says NOTHING about regeneration as something that is supposedly pre-justification/salvation, as you have to add that view into the text and thus is a proof text, out of context! The passage in fact is a contrast between those who have rejected the truth and those who have already received it. So if you are claiming that regeneration is salvation - I agree. If you are claiming it something pre-faith/.. this passage does not support you presumption.

 

[Allan]

Hence, quickening is the opposite of spritiual separation and thus SPIRITUAL UNION between the human spirit and the Spirit of God is the opposite of spiritual separation. Unless, my memory does not serve me correctly you have already agreed to this in a previous post. Anything IN UNION is without disconnect/separation and that means the human spirit is without disconnect with the Spirit of God or else SPIRITUAL SEPARATION is the only possible alternative and that is SPIRITUAL DEATH.

You presume that the Spirit of God must 'indwell' man in order for them to have union with them. We have nothing in the OT that makes any such statements and NT deals with it regarding the New Convenant but never uses the OT as reference to nor illustration of something that has always been. In fact this is a key element you have yet to discuss. You have nothing from scripture that states any such idea that the 'indwelling' of the Spirit of God has always been the means of union with God. I see where you are 'logically' trying to show it, but you have shown no scriptures to biblically validate any such premise.

Last, justification is a LEGAL FORENSIC term and LEGAL action that occurs IN HEAVEN not in man as it regards the CHANGE OF HIS LEGAL POSITION before God's law not THE CHANGE OF HIS INTERNAL PERSON as his person is still SINFUL while his position before God is SINLESS. Jusifiication by faith in the atonement (His blood - Rom. 3:24-25) is the LEGAL PROPIATION/SATISFACTION of his sins before God but does not remove his sin within his PERSON. This LEGAL POSITION before God obtains "peace" with God (Rom. 5:1) but it IS not the change of man's condition. It may be the CAUSE or CONSEQUENCE (depending on your soteriology) but it is not regeneration.

Still you have YET to prove your supposition that regeneration does not involve justification. Regeneration is salvation as regeneration/quickening is what makes a person alive in and unto God, of which Justification is a part. And since to be regenerate one must be justified and sanctified in order to 'in Christ', there is no union (spiritual or otherwise). To say one has peace with God but has no union with God is like saying you're an American but you don't get the benefits. Regeneration includes justificaiton.

Regeneration is not justification as regeneration does not refer to his POSITION legally before God but to his PERSONAL CONDITION in regard to his "spirit" NOT HIS BODY nor his soul as what is born of "Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). This has to do with his INWARD man not his OUTWARD MAN.

I never said regeneration IS justification. However you cannot have a PERSONAL CONDITION before God that is changed without that position being LEGALLY changed, and yes I'm talking about the spirit.

You cannot claim that atonement, justification and regeneration are one and the same as they are not. You can only place them in either a chronological cause and effect relationshp or a logical cause and effect relationship but you cannot say one IS the other. Neither can you claim that simply because you cannot have one without the other that they are interchangable or that they do not have distinct separate functions and obtain distinct separate aspects of salvation. However, that is precisely the kind of muddle you are presenting.

Again, I have never stated that justification and regeneration are the SAME THING. Regeneration is the result of both the justification and sanctification of God. Regeneration describes how a person comes into unity with God. Regeneration is result of the work of God, what is that work that defines not only what it is regeneration but what it does AND WHY it does it?

 

[The Biblicist]

The following men are said to have had the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ in them and not all are prophets.

1. Gen. 41:38
2. Numb. 14:24
3. Numb. 27:18
4. Isa. 63:10,11
5. Dan. 2:47; 4:2,3,9; 5:11,16; 6:2
6. 1 Pet. 1:11
7. Gal. 3:17 "in Christ"

You presume that the Spirit of God must 'indwell' man in order for them to have union with them.

Not mere "union" but "SPIRITUAL union" as SPIRITUAL separation is spiritual death. There can be no such thing as "spiritual" union between man and God without SPIRITUAL CONNECTION between God's Spirit and man's spirit.

Still you have YET to prove your supposition that regeneration does not involve justification.

Regeneration is not without justification but they are not the same nor are they are inclusive of one another. One has to do with your spiritual condition and the other with your legal position.

I never said regeneration IS justification. However you cannot have a PERSONAL CONDITION before God that is changed without that position being LEGALLY changed, and yes I'm talking about the spirit.

Thank you! So don't argue that regeneration is what brings "peace" between a sinner and God because it does not. Justification does. Regeneration brings SPIRITUAL UNION/LIFE while justification brings Peace. Yes, both occur at conversion but both are not the same or obtain the same results.

Again, I have never stated that justification and regeneration are the SAME THING.

Again, thank you! Regeneration obtains SPIRITUAL LIFE and that life is in the Spirit which without there is no spiritual life. So Spiritual UNION is being UNITED with the Holy Spirit WITHIN your own spirit. That is Spiritual indwelling.

Finally, and once again, there is no eternal salvation of any kind OUTSIDE of Christ but only "In Christ" and if those prior to Pentecost were OUTSIDE of Christ they were enemies of God. Furthemore, Faith is the the fruit of the indwelling Spirit and all in Hebrews 11 walked "by faith."

A man and a woman are UNITED legally and physically and they are not the same. Likewise the believer is united to God legally and spiritually and they are not the same. But in each there is actual union between two physically (marriage) and two spirits (regeneration).

 

[Van]

Calvinism 101

Thus far you are logical and scriptural. Thus far you have no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ but only "in Christ." But you quickly leave this from this point forward and advocate a salvation OUTSIDE of Christ by all your following arguments.

Here the Calvinist starts with an outrageous slander, I say there is no salvation outside of Christ and the Calvinist says I said the opposite. Falsehood #1.

This may be an argument against "dispensationalism" but it certainly has nothing to do with a "Calvinist hook" or Calvinism whatsoever. If you think it does I would like you to explain in what connection as I see no connetion nor am I attempting to make any connection with Calvinism or Arminianism at all.

The Calvinist hook is the claim that being dead in our sins, spiritually dead, means more than being separated, corrupted and having no ability to save ourselves. The Calvinists falsely claim it means having to ability to seek God and trust in Christ, i.e. no ability as the OT Saints did to gain approval through faith. This is just another of the utter false claims of Calvinism. Falsehood #2

You are at least consistent with your view point unlike Allen. However, I do not need to go any further with you as we have nothing in common from this point forward with each other nor do many Baptists. However, you are proof of what I told Allen and I hope he will see where his position must logically lead him to.

No we get an attack on my argument as inconsistent, when unlike Calvinism it is totally consistent. Thus an argument from absurdity. As well as being falsehood #3. OTOH, Calvinism says God predestines everything yet is not the author of sin. This is totally inconsistent, absurd, and inane.

1) In order to enter heaven, you must be born again.

2) No OT Saint had entered heaven, even though they had gained approval through faith, when Jesus had not yet gone to the cross.

3) After Christ died, then to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and the Lord is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Therefore, no OT Saint was born again, regenerated, made spiritually alive in Christ, or indwelt with the Holy Spirit before Christ died on the cross. It is a lock. And can only be evaded, dodged and avoided by an avalanche of obvious falsehoods from the mistaken views of Calvinism.

 

[percho]

He answered your questions in a simple and consice manner, you just don't like the answer given.

Your.. questions, can be boiled down to a simple, single question:
Can the OT believers be saved if the Spirit of God did not indwell them like it does the NT believers?

View of dispensation aside, the answer remains the same.

Yes, the OT believers were saved apart from the fact they were not continuously or consistantly 'indwelt' by the Spirit of God. This is found to be eternally true from the scriptures. The Spirit of God came upon some (though not all) and even left them.

Does the Spirit of God do that with you.. take up residence and then leave you completely, (and sometimes come again, and leave again) as it did those in the OT?

Note Samson in the OT. The Spirit came on him and also left him, YET, he was still God's child - a believer. David prayed often to 'not take your Spirit from me'.. why? Because he was afraid of God removing His Spirit as He often did.

The means of salvation (by grace, through faith) has not changed throughout the scriptures, however the depth and display of unity, not unity itself, has changed to something greater, something 'new'.

In reality did not the resurrected Christ become the faith, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. And it was through him becoming faith that he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, the promise to Abraham of in thy seed shall all the nations be blessed?

This is salvation wrought for man.

Because of Jesus becoming the faith and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit other men whether having lived before Jesus ie those called in the OT and those in the future can receive eternal life by that Spirit because Jesus is the faith.

That being now they can be:

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13,14


Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:20

Those called of God in the OT will be saved because of the faith to come, by faith. Those after Christ lived died and was resurrected will be saved through the faith that came by the grace of God the resurrection of Christ. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins 1 Cor 15:17

By grace through the faith will bring salvation.

 

[Van]

Calvinism 101 Summarized and repeated

Let me state this in its simplest manner. There is no spiritual life in the human spirit except by "union" with the Spirit of God WITHIN man. That "union" must be CONTINUOUS by nature or it is not in "union" but disconnected/separated which by definition is spiritual death. That very continuous union IS the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God or else there is no "spiritual" union existent at all between the human spirit and God.

Lets number the falsehoods, shall we!

1) Do we need to be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit to seek God and strive to follow Him? No, all the OT Saints who gained approval through faith did exactly that.

2) Does the Calvinism make an argument supported by scripture? No. Instead a circular argument is made where Godly spiritual living is defined as indwelt. LOL

Again, lets go over it!

a) When God places us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5 Thus before we are placed in Christ we are not spiritually alive by logical necessity.
b) When we are "placed in Christ" we are baptized into His death." (Romans 6:3) Therefore, no one was placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross.
c) Only after we have been baptized into Christ, can be we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13.​

 

[The Biblicist]

Lets number the falsehoods, shall we!

1) Do we need to be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit to seek God and strive to follow Him? No, all the OT Saints who gained approval through faith did exactly that.

2) Does the Calvinism make an argument supported by scripture? No. Instead a circular argument is made where Godly spiritual living is defined as indwelt. LOL

Again, lets go over it!

a) When God places us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5 Thus before we are placed in Christ we are not spiritually alive by logical necessity.
b) When we are "placed in Christ" we are baptized into His death." (Romans 6:3) Therefore, no one was placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross.
c) Only after we have been baptized into Christ, can be we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13.​

Van this issue has NOTHING to do with Calvinism but with the nature of regeneration regardless if you are an Armnian or Calvinist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Lets number the falsehoods, shall we!

1) Do we need to be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit to seek God and strive to follow Him? No, all the OT Saints who gained approval through faith did exactly that.

Sealing has to do with SECURITY and the OT Saints had security

2) Does the Calvinism make an argument supported by scripture? No. Instead a circular argument is made where Godly spiritual living is defined as indwelt. LOL

What has Calvinism to do with this????? Arminians believe in regeneration as much as Calvinists! You have a one track mind. My discussion has nothing to do with Calvinism or any of the five points of calvinism.

Again, lets go over it!

a) When God places us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5 Thus before we are placed in Christ we are not spiritually alive by logical necessity.​

Abraham lived prior to Christ and was "in Christ" by faith (Gal. 3:17) as there is no salvation for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE of Christ as Christ makes clear BEFORE the cross in John 14:6. Did the OT saints come to God by faith (Heb. 4:6}? Yes - Heb. 11:7-41. Is "faith" a fruit of the Spirit? Yes!

are "placed in Christ" we are baptized into His death." (Romans 6:3) Therefore, no one was placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross.
c) Only after we have been baptized into Christ, can be we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13.

False! It was "imputed" to them by faith looking forward to Christ as it is imputed to us by faith looking back (Rom. 3;24-26).

 

[Van]

Stating the Opposite of Truth

Van this issue has NOTHING to do with Calvinism but with the nature of regeneration regardless if you are an Armnian or Calvinist.

Like many threads started by other Calvinists, this thread is pushing a Calvinist doctrine, this time regeneration before faith.

Folks, Calvinists simply deny the obvious as well as scripture.

 

[Allan]

The following men are said to have had the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ in them and not all are prophets.

1. Gen. 41:38 - In him, it does not state 'indwelling him'. I agree the Spirit of God came upon and worked in men.. AND He left them to! Not the same as the Spirit indwelling us, who will never leave us.

2. Numb. 14:24 - Caleb had another Spirit wtih him (not of the Holy Spirit but of faith) but again even it 'were' it is 'with' and not indwelling him

3. Numb. 27:18 - Again, I don't disagree the Spirit can be 'in' but it is not the same as 'indwelling'. If our indwelling cannot be removed, why is it theirs can as evidenced by statements such as "take not thy holy Spirit from me", as well as bible statements that God took His Spirit or removed it from them?

4. Isa. 63:10,11 - vs 11 reads '.. in the midst of them' not, within them.

5. Dan. 2:47; - nothing at all about being indwelt

Dan 4:2,3,9; - same as above except in vs 9.. which AGAIN, speak not of God indwelling him but in a general term of being with him.

Dan 5:11,16; vs 11 does not refer to indwelling but again regards a general sense of being 'with him' in the sense. Vs 16 reveals nothing at all about being in or with.
BTW - this one and Dan 4, no scholar I know of, (nor reformed like Gill, Henry, MacArthur, etc..) state these refer to 'indwelling'

Dan 6:2 - Let me quote you Gill on this passage, more specifically on your 'in him' portion:

because an excellent spirit was in him; meaning not a spirit of grace, piety, and religion, which the Heathen king was no judge of, nor valued him for it, though it was in him; but a spirit of knowledge of civil affairs, and of prudence in managing them, and of integrity throughout the whole of his conduct:

Again, I do not disagree the Spirit of God was in men of God but He did not indwell them as He NT believers.

6. 1 Pet. 1:11 - This does not infer anything to you view. The Spirit of God was in them but did not indwell them as the NT.

7. Gal. 3:17 "in Christ" - again, it adds nothing to your position.

Not mere "union" but "SPIRITUAL union" as SPIRITUAL separation is spiritual death. There can be no such thing as "spiritual" union between man and God without SPIRITUAL CONNECTION between God's Spirit and man's spirit.

Union is union, spiritual or not and since we are speaking about spiritual union it should go without saying that is what I'm speaking to.
Again, I do not disagree however you have YET to prove that his l;iteral eternal indwelling of His Spirit is what necessates us having spiritual union.

Regeneration is not without justification but they are not the same nor are they are inclusive of one another. One has to do with your spiritual condition and the other with your legal position.

Again, I have NEVER stated they ARE the same, stop making stuff up. Yes one has to do with your condition and the other legal position but they are not mutually exclusive nor indeed can be! You cannot have one without the other, and you CANNOT have Union without first being justified, which is by faith. There is biblical and logical order here because one necessitates the other to become a true statement. This is where you keep messing up. You presume you can have union apart from justification as if the two are not intertwined.

Thank you! So don't argue that regeneration is what brings "peace" between a sinner and God because it does not. Justification does. Regeneration brings SPIRITUAL UNION/LIFE while justification brings Peace. Yes, both occur at conversion but both are not the same or obtain the same results.

Regeneration is not an act of itself separate from justification and sanctification. It is the combination of two specific acts (justification and sanctification) that have happened thus these two events create a 'union' with God. Regeneration is a word which refers to the union now established through Justification AND sanctification. So while justification legally brings peace it also provides the legal basis for union/unification with God. Yet it is through sanctification that God has established that union, in which He has separated us unto Himself.

Regeneration is the word that is used to describe what these two events have done NOT an event unto itself separate from them but working with justification and sanctification. It is not something separate from them, it derives it's meaning and defination from what these other 2 events has both done and created.

Your error is using regeneration as a single event itself that is not predicated upon the other 2 events. However scripturally, regeneration, while it DOES refer to the spiritual condition, it does so based entirely upon justification and sanctification and does not exist separate from nor prior to them happening.

Again, thank you! Regeneration obtains SPIRITUAL LIFE and that life is in the Spirit which without there is no spiritual life. So Spiritual UNION is being UNITED with the Holy Spirit WITHIN your own spirit. That is Spiritual indwelling.

Now you are adding AGAIN here. You add the Holy Spirit WITHIN your spirit - eternal indwelling, and have YET to show scripture to support that this 'indwelling' as being held for spiritual union in both the OT and NT.

Please show where in the OT that spiritual life or union is predicated upon the Spirit of God indwelling you eternally? You using a logical fallicy based upon entirely upon your perception of what 'should' be and not what scripture has stated - at least thus far as you have provided no evidence to the contrary.
You are giving me reasoning why it could be but nothing scripturally that states permenant 'indwelling' has always equated with spiritual union.

Finally, and once again, there is no eternal salvation of any kind OUTSIDE of Christ but only "In Christ" and if those prior to Pentecost were OUTSIDE of Christ they were enemies of God. Furthemore, Faith is the the fruit of the indwelling Spirit and all in Hebrews 11 walked "by faith."

No has said otherwise. We are placed into Christ by His Spirit, thus salvation is found "in Christ" and our very union is found 'In Christ'. Therefore those who were looking toward His coming would be 'In Christ'. Fruit of the Spirit is faith - yes.. but the indwelling did not happen till AFTER pentecost So far, that is undispted.

 

[Van]

1) When God seals us in Christ with the Spirit of Promise, the Spirit of Adoption, we are indwelt forever.

2) Next we get the feigned ignorance ploy. Scripture teaches we come to faith before we are made alive, regenerated, born anew, for we are saved through faith. Thus just as when we enter a room through a door, we pass through the door before we enter the room, and we gain access to the grace through faith in Christ. So simple even a child can understand it.

3) Lets take a look at Galatians 3:17 and see if it says Abraham was in Christ. No it does not. Some texts do indeed read "by God in Christ." However the insertion of "in Christ" appears to be a copyist gloss, an addition to the actual text. Calvinism depends on mistaken translations again and again to support its mistaken doctrine.

Here is the verse, modified from the NET to add the apparent copyist insertion: 17 What I am saying is this: The law that came four hundred thirty years later does not cancel a covenant previously ratified by God [eis Christ], so as to invalidate the promise. First note the inserted word is not "en" meaning on the inside, but rather the motion toward Christ. So what Paul could be saving (if part of the inspired text) is God established the Law to lead us to Christ. So even if the controversial phrase is the correct text, it does not say or suggest Abraham was in Christ. LOL yet again.

4) Did I say there was no salvation before people were set apart in Christ? Nope. I said they had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, for they had gained approval through faith. Ultimately the OT Saints were taken to heaven "in Christ" after Christ died on the cross. John 14:6 supports this view, the OT Saints did not come to the Father, i.e. enter heaven, the abode of the Father, but had to wait in Abraham's bosom.

5) Did the OT Saints gain approval through faith? Yes, Hebrews 11:1-2. All these died in faith without receiving the promises including a better country, that is heaven. Folks, it is all in Hebrews chapter 11, just read it, especially verses 2, 13, and 39-40.

6) Next we get the Calvinist falsehood that presalvation faith is a fruit of the Spirit. No, faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit after being indwelt. Reread Ephesians 1:13 which clearly teaches we had presalvation faith "having believed" before we were sealed in Christ.

7) Lastly the Calvinist claims Romans 3:24-26 says the OT Saints were made perfect, righteous, holy and blameless before Christ died. Pure unadulterated twaddle. The OT saints gained approval through faith and were set apart in Abraham's bosom until Christ died. Then, together with the New Covenant saints, they were justified by His blood, made perfect and taken to heaven. Just read Hebrews 11 folks, it will teach you how the OT saints were saved by grace through faith with a pit stop in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Van]

Opps, posted in wrong thread.

 

[Jope]

Ultimately the OT Saints were taken to heaven "in Christ" after Christ died on the cross. John 14:6 supports this view, the OT Saints did not come to the Father, i.e. enter heaven, the abode of the Father, but had to wait in Abraham's bosom.

Amen.

Acts 4:12 also tells us that it is only by Christ's name that men may be saved ("under heaven", ESV). If the OT saints didn't know Christ's name (Pr. 30:4), they couldn't be saved until the name was given among men (Luke 2:21). Christ evidently preached His name to those BC saints dwelling in Hades when He was down there (Acts 2:25, 27; 1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6), in order for them to be led into heaven (Eph. 4:8; Hos. 6:2; Mt. 27:52-53), and be saved (Acts 4:12).

 

[Jope]

Galatians 3 ESV
16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.​

What Paul is saying in Galatians 3:16-17 is that the Abrahamic covenant had been confirmed in Christ. Christ was the promised seed that the OT saints had been waiting for for so long (Heb. 11:39, ESV):

"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised".​

This is why Eve was so excited when she had "gotten a man from the LORD" (Gen. 4:1, KJV): She thought Cain might have been the promised seed to deliver them from their transgression and overcome Satan (Gen. 3:15).

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, ​​​​​​​and between your offspring and her offspring; ​​​​​​​he [Christ] shall bruise your [Satan's] head, ​​​​​​​and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15, ESV, bold emphasis mine).​

Abraham also, was promised this same seed. God revealed that, not only would this seed overcome Satan, as had been afore promised, but this seed would be the inheritor of the land of Canaan, and heaven.

Galatians 3:16 ESV
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Gen. 22:17a ESV
I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven [the Church, cf. Heb 2:5-6; 3:1] and as the sand that is on the seashore [the Jews, Jer. 3:18; Ezek. 36:27-28].

Gen. 26:4a ESV
I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands.

Ephesians 1:10 KJV
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him​

What Paul is saying in Galatians 3:17, is that the Abrahamic covenant has been confirmed by Christ, and He is indeed the promised seed of that covenant. Since this covenant has been confirmed, something else introduced 430 years later cannot annul that covenant. Since the Christian is a part of that Abrahamic covenant (being "in Christ", the guarantor), and not a part of the Mosaic covenant that has been done away (Jer. 31:31-32; Heb. 8:13), the Christian does not have to observe the obsolete Mosaic covenant (which is the theme of the Galatian epistle).

The "inheritance" that is spoken of in verse 18 (of Galatians 3), is the heavenly inheritance for the Church, which is who Paul is writing to.

Gen. 15:5 ESV
And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring [Christ] be.”​

 

[The Biblicist]

1. Gen. 41:38 - In him, it does not state 'indwelling him'. I agree the Spirit of God came upon and worked in men.. AND He left them to! Not the same as the Spirit indwelling us, who will never leave us.

2. Numb. 14:24 - Caleb had another Spirit wtih him (not of the Holy Spirit but of faith) but again even it 'were' it is 'with' and not indwelling him

3. Numb. 27:18 - Again, I don't disagree the Spirit can be 'in' but it is not the same as 'indwelling'. If our indwelling cannot be removed, why is it theirs can as evidenced by statements such as "take not thy holy Spirit from me", as well as bible statements that God took His Spirit or removed it from them?

4. Isa. 63:10,11 - vs 11 reads '.. in the midst of them' not, within them.

5. Dan. 2:47; - nothing at all about being indwelt

Dan 4:2,3,9; - same as above except in vs 9.. which AGAIN, speak not of God indwelling him but in a general term of being with him.

Dan 5:11,16; vs 11 does not refer to indwelling but again regards a general sense of being 'with him' in the sense. Vs 16 reveals nothing at all about being in or with.
BTW - this one and Dan 4, no scholar I know of, (nor reformed like Gill, Henry, MacArthur, etc..) state these refer to 'indwelling'

Dan 6:2 - Let me quote you Gill on this passage, more specifically on your 'in him' portion:

Again, I do not disagree the Spirit of God was in men of God but He did not indwell them as He NT believers.

6. 1 Pet. 1:11 - This does not infer anything to you view. The Spirit of God was in them but did not indwell them as the NT.

7. Gal. 3:17 "in Christ" - again, it adds nothing to your position.

If pure assumptions are going to the basis for interpretation here than I can offer that as well. You offer absolutely no scripture to support your pure assumption the Spirit which you admit that most of these texts teach was "in" them ever left them. However, I am supposed to merely accept your asumptions based on nothing but your own determination to deny it.

Van denies any where regenerated as well and you would be hard pressed to provide as many scriptures as I have to prove regeneration did occur in the Old Testament.

Every single solitary scripture you can cite that demonstrates the Spirit left someone IS NEVER IN REGARD TO SALVATION but always in regard to special service, power or a function but yet on the basis of this kind of flimsy evidence you base your presumptions.

I predicted this would be your response because you have already made up your mind in spite of the fact your offer not one scripture that demonstrates the Spirit left any of these men. The preposition "en" in the N.T. is translated both "in" and "with" and it is the decisio of the translator. The same is true in the Old Testament so your argument about "with" is worthless.

Union is union, spiritual or not and since we are speaking about spiritual union it should go without saying that is what I'm speaking to.
Again, I do not disagree however you have YET to prove that his literal eternal indwelling of His Spirit is what necessates us having spiritual union.

Listen, when you deny the preposition "in" supports indwelling and yet cannot offer a single solitary scripture in any of these case the Spirit ever left them then I would say that is bias to the hilt.

Again, I have NEVER stated they ARE the same, stop making stuff up. Yes one has to do with your condition and the other legal position but they are not mutually exclusive nor indeed can be! You cannot have one without the other,

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't have your cake and eat too! If they are not the same, if they are not interchangable, if they do not obtain the same goals, then stop arguing as though they are and that is precisely what you are doing.

There is no sense in continuing this discussion. You cannot deny the logic of my position and you cannot deny that "in" does refer to indwelling in the New Testament Scriptures and therefore may equally apply in the OT but you simply choose not to accept that.

Thanks for the dialogue. Perhaps we will meet again on another subject.

 

[Jope]

Opps, posted in wrong thread.

 

[Allan]

If pure assumptions are going to the basis for interpretation here than I can offer that as well. You offer absolutely no scripture to support your pure assumption the Spirit which you admit that most of these texts teach was "in" them ever left them. However, I am supposed to merely accept your asumptions based on nothing but your own determination to deny it.

No assumptions at all. An assumption has no basis of fact, and eyt what I have given is fact based upon the text and that, and as you have noted you cannot contradict it. So instead you create an imaginatary statement to try to bolster your postition.

Now. Let us go back the text from which I left you previously regarding those whom the Spirit of God left. Now, let us consider what the text is stating. Is it what some reformed views have deduced so as to keep with their theology, that the Spirit leaving is REALLY just the Spirit not empowering them?
Not unless we spiritualize the text without it calling or necessitating such an thing.

So, when scripture declares the Spirit of God 'departed' does it really mean what it says? Answer: Yes. The essense word means to leave, depart, be removed. (either away from, or toward )

This is it's normal and consistant rendering of the word throughout the OT. Thus the Spirit of God had to be 'with' him, in order to leave, depart, be removed from him. There is no other contextual way this can be addressed or viewed. This has nothing to do with empowering but the where the Spirit was God was in relation to Saul, or Sampson or othes for that matter. (Judges 16:20 - he did not know that the Lord had departed from him). Not ceased to empower him, but the context of the text establishes the Lord was no longer 'with' him. In fact, with Saul, the same word and reference use of the Spirit departing from him is used of the evil spirit departing from him as David played his harp. Are we to postulate that the evil spirit stopped 'empowering him'??

Another position that is taken by many reformed is that Saul was never regenerate, however this also provides an elephant in the room for them. If he was never regenerate, then you have the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering a non-believer in which he prophesied, lead God's people, etc...

Van denies any where regenerated as well and you would be hard pressed to provide as many scriptures as I have to prove regeneration did occur in the Old Testament.

Not true at all. I do not deny OT saints were regenerate.

Here is John Hendryx from Monergism on (Regeneration in the Old Testament), on whom I agree with:

Regeneration in the Old Testament
by John Hendryx

The following is a visitor's set of questions regarding the nature of the new birth in the Old Testament...

How is it that Israel could swear with all their heart and seek God with their whole desire? Were these affections necessarily the result of regeneration, or could they be produced by Jews under the law? Was pre-Christ Israel regenerate? Only some? Everyone at that time, not not necessarily later? Is regeneration a primarily new covenant occurrence, or could Jews under the law also receive regeneration? If so, what is the significance of Ezekiel 11:18-20, where God apparently promises to grant regeneration only later (after Christ?).

----------------------------------------------

Very good questions....

I believe it can be clearly demonstrated that regeneration is an occurrence in both the Old and New testaments. Human nature is the same under both and human beings cannot extract themselves, by way of self-effort, to follow YHWH. The law in itself does not produce the needed affection for God in the naturally uncircumcised hearts of the Israelites.

Clearly the Old Testament taught from start to finish that God had chosen a remnant within the physical decedents of Abraham. By no means were all Jews regenerate. Romans 9:6-13 speaks of this phenomena:

For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but:
"THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God,
but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH
SHALL HAVE A SON."
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived
twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good
or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

You are correct in assuming that Israel having the moral ability to seek God with their whole heart was a necessary result of their regeneration.

Sometimes in the Old Testament God even reveals behind the scenes how He enabled particular Jews to obey his Word when they were called to repent: In 2 Chronicles chapter 30, for example, when couriers with a message of repentance passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, they laughed them to scorn and mocked them when they were called to repent, "Nevertheless some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." (Chronicles 30:11-12)

OK lets look at this event... the text says some tribes resisted the call to repentance, but only those tribes which the HAND OF GOD GAVE A HEART TBEY THE WORD, repented. So here is a clear instance of the Spirit of God working faith and repentance in the hearts of certain persons among Israel while leaving others to their own rebellious self-will...

You question...
If so, what is the significance of Ezekiel 11:18-20, where God apparently promises to grant regeneration only later (after Christ?).

Notice the wording that Jesus uses in John 14 about the promise of the Spirit...

16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

Jesus claims in this passage that the disciples KNOW the Spirit already because he is ABIDES WITH YOU [the disciples]... but notice His change up here -- AND WILL BE IN YOU. This is a future tense of an indwelling. Apparently the saints of the OT enjoyed regeneration but may not have enjoyed indwelling to the extent that we do. Regeneration and indwelling are not exactly the same the same for in regeneration the Spirit works to illumine our minds and renew our hearts prior to our faith in which He comes to indwell us. That pre-salvific action is not called indwelling. "WITH YOU" and "IN YOU" appear to demonstrate qualitative differences.

The Spirit has been active since creation. Deut 30:36 when YHWH is speaking to the Jews themselves, he says, "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

This is clear indication that God's promise for regeneration was for the hearers of these words as well as their children, not just some eschatological promise ....

But the INDWELLING of the corporate body by the Spirit presupposes the resurrection. The Spirit helps us to obey Jesus commandments (vs. 15) where the righteous demands of the law are met for those who walk according to the Spirit. Of course the Jews are also part of Christ's body but they only experienced the promises in the form of types and shadows. Look at the hall of faith in

Hebrews 11 ...
39 And all these , having gained approval through their faith, did not
receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Furthermore passages like Joel speaks of the Spirit being poured out on all mankind (Jew & Gentiles), so that this promise was no longer just confined
to the Jews.

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.


So while all Jews were part of the physical covenant in their circumcision, but not all were spiritually circumcised. While the work of the Spirit was active in the OT what we have is founded of better promises for everything which the OT pointed to has been fulfilled.

Every single solitary scripture you can cite that demonstrates the Spirit left someone IS NEVER IN REGARD TO SALVATION but always in regard to special service, power or a function but yet on the basis of this kind of flimsy evidence you base your presumptions.

See in your above, is a falicy based upon your supposition and indeed is such since this goes 'against' the context and text regarding the events. You have to introduce this view in the text to get it out of it. If the Spirit of God 'left', was 'removed', 'taken away', then of course power AND function left but that is because the Spirit Himself LEFT. There is no other way to render the passages, period.

The only thing flimsy thus far in the conversation is your understanding of issue in question. You give nothing to validate anything but your own conjecture. I on the other hand have given you scripture, it's contextual understanding, and you.. well, nothing.