Spiritual Union or Eternal life

[Winman]

Whether you personally believe in baptismal regeneration or not is not the issue. It is not that I believe you believe in baptismal regeneration but your interpretation of this text supports it whether you believe it or not.

Don't play politics! Who cares if you actually believe or don't believe in baptismal regeneration! That is not the point. The point is your explanation of Peter's statement demands water baptism PRECEDED this kind of reception of the Spirit as you bluntly and plainly state this reception of the Spirit came "AFTERWARDS"!!! Anyone capable of reading and understanding English can see that is precisely what you said:


Peter told these Jews to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. - Winman

If the above words (your own summarization) are not clear enough look at your own admission as you plainly admit to it:



What did you say? You said "OF COURSE"! Whether you believe or don't believe in baptismal regeneration does not matter but your interpretation of this text supports baptismal regeneration. What did YOU SAY? You said "OF COURSE!" Of course what? Of course "Peter tells these Jews to repent AND BE BAPTIZED and THEN they would receive the Holy Ghost." So stop your nonsense that you did not say and mean that baptism PRECEDES the promise of the Spirit! Whether or not you personally embrace the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is moot to my point. My point is that your interpretation of Acts 2:38 which is this verses teaches personal indwelling by the Holy Spirit which you admit comes AFTERWARDS - after what? After both repentance AND water baptism. If that is true, then regardless of what believe about baptismal regeneration does not change your interpretation of this text which supports that very doctrine you deny!

You must think folks are stupid. That is the problem with most Calvinists I have debated here, you guys believe you are smarter than other folks.

When I originally quoted Acts 2:38 and paraphrased Peter, I made no statement whatsoever about Peter saying a person MUST be baptized to receive the Spirit. The only reason I mentioned baptism is because Peter would only baptize a person who had sincerely believed. I clearly made that point by mentioning Acts 8:36-37.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Do you see the parts I highlighted in blue? This is exactly how I posted these verses before. The Ethiopian eunuch asked what would prevent him from being baptized, and Philip answered that if he BELIEVED in Jesus with all his heart he may.

That is the point I was making and you know it. Peter would only baptize a believer. So Acts 2:38 proves that believing precedes receiving the Spirit. This refutes Calvinism which falsely teaches you must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

The scriptures I showed refute Calvinism. You know that very well, so you try to misrepresent me and distract from the point I was making. Honest and sensible people are not fooled by your dishonest tactics. And you continue to play your dishonest game.

Never said Acts 2:38 were your words! Never quoted Acts 2:38 and said they were your words. I quoted YOUR WORDS as YOUR WORDS! Now you even admit I was right and again I quote YOUR WORDS and what did YOU say? You said "OF COURSE."

Again, Peter would only baptize a true believer, so Acts 2:38 PROVES that Peter believed a person could believe on Jesus before they received the Spirit. I also quoted several verses by Paul that clearly show he believed a person first believes, and receives the Spirit afterward. Again, I believe you understand this perfectly, but you try to deflect with this false accusation that I believe in baptismal regeneration. You refuse to come clean.

If you are teaching that the "promise" here is the personal individual indwelling of the Spirit then you are indeed teaching either baptismal regeneration OR baptism must precede reception of the indwelling Spirit and either way what is the difference? None!

I am teaching no such thing. I believe Peter was simply commanding these persons to believe on Jesus, and then be baptized in obedience, and afterward they would receive the Spirit. I said no such thing that baptism was required to receive the Spirit, you are putting words in my mouth.

My only point was that FAITH preceded receiving the Spirit, proving that natural men have the ability to believe on Jesus, and once they do they shall receive the Spirit.

The fact is, that Peter is not teaching that individual indwelling of the Spirit requires repentance and baptism. He is referring to partaking of the promised gifts of the Spirit as spoken of by Joel due to the baptism in the Spirit of the New house of God - the Church which as a corporate temple was immersed in the Spirit of God on Pentecost and water baptism is required to enter into that new house of God as Acts 2:40 clearly demonstrates:

"As many as received the word were BAPTIZED and ADDED UNTO them" - Acts 2:40

I agree that Peter is not preaching a person has to be baptized to receive the Spirit, but Peter WAS teaching that a person must repent and trust Jesus for the remission of their sins to receive the Spirit.

I quoted Ephesians 1:13 that says AFTER a person believes they are sealed by the Spirit. This verse does not mention baptism whatsoever.

You can play your dishonest games all you want, I never said a person had to be baptized to receive the Spirit, I said they had to BELIEVE.

I have no respect for someone who does not have the courage to be honest.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have no respect for someone who does not have the courage to be honest.

One more time! It makes no difference to me whether you believe in baptismal regeneration or not. It is your summarization AND use of Acts 2:38 in connection with your insistance that the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit refers to individual indwelling. It does not take a lot of commons sense to see that promise is based upon BOTH "repent AND be baptized" in order to obtain that promise.

You admitted twice that is so. You admitted it in your summary that BOTH were prequistes as your use of the word "AFTERWARDS" admits that and that term was not used by Peter. Then you clearly admitted it again by the words "OF COURSE."

Hence, it is irrelevant what you believe about baptismal regeneration. What is revelant is that your interpretation that the "gift" is the indwelling of the Spirit supports baptismal regeneration whether or not you embrace that false doctrine.

And Yes, the people on this forum are not so stupid to see you are simply slippery and slick and dishonest.

 

[Winman]

One more time! It makes no difference to me whether you believe in baptismal regeneration or not. It is your summarization AND use of Acts 2:38 in connection with your insistance that the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit refers to individual indwelling. It does not take a lot of commons sense to see that promise is based upon BOTH "repent AND be baptized" in order to obtain that promise.

And that is where you make your mistake and prove you are not a "scholar". You have to take all scripture into account on a given subject. Ephesians 1:13 states that AFTER a person believes or trusts the gospel that they were sealed by the Spirit. This verse does not say one word about baptism being required to receive the Spirit. Paul asked "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?" in Acts 19:2. Did Paul ask, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed AND WERE BAPTIZED?" NO, because being baptized was not a requirement. If you were a real scholar you would know this.

You admitted twice that is so. You admitted it in your summary that BOTH were prequistes as your use of the word "AFTERWARDS" admits that and that term was not used by Peter. Then you clearly admitted it again by the words "OF COURSE."

I said no such thing. I simply pointed out that Peter would only baptize a true believer, and so Acts 2:38 proves Peter believed a natural man could believe, and if he did he would receive the Spirit.

I showed how the disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus in John chapter 2, but did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John chapter 20. I did not mention one word about them being baptized.

You know this well, you just do not have the guts to be honest.

Hence, it is irrelevant what you believe about baptismal regeneration. What is revelant is that your interpretation that the "gift" is the indwelling of the Spirit supports baptismal regeneration whether or not you embrace that false doctrine.

And Yes, the people on this forum are not so stupid to see you are simply slippery and slick and dishonest.

Blah, blah, blah, you falsely accused me and you know it, and now you do not have the courage to admit your wrong.

You are showing the world your lack of character.

 

[The Biblicist]

And that is where you make your mistake and prove you are not a "scholar". You have to take all scripture into account on a given subject. Ephesians 1:13 states that AFTER a person believes or trusts the gospel that they were sealed by the Spirit. This verse does not say one word about baptism being required to receive the Spirit. Paul asked "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?" in Acts 19:2. Did Paul ask, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed AND WERE BAPTIZED?" NO, because being baptized was not a requirement. If you were a real scholar you would know this.



I said no such thing. I simply pointed out that Peter would only baptize a true believer, and so Acts 2:38 proves Peter believed a natural man could believe, and if he did he would receive the Spirit.

I showed how the disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus in John chapter 2, but did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John chapter 20. I did not mention one word about them being baptized.

You know this well, you just do not have the guts to be honest.



Blah, blah, blah, you falsely accused me and you know it, and now you do not have the courage to admit your wrong.

You are showing the world your lack of character.

I will gladly let the readers be the judge of who is being dishonest.