St. Patrick's Day Revisited

[Ingo Breuer]

Dear brothers and siters in the Lord,

just recently we had St. Patrick's Day in the US and it is proclaimed as a holiday of the Roman Catholics. But there is concern whether the actual person St. Patrick was a Catholic for his ministry transpired before the Catholic church was officially founded. Could it be that St. Patrick was a true baptistis, evangelical believer?

Baptist author Roy Mason in his book "The church that Jesus built" writes this:

"Baptists had churches in Ireland at a time not vastly remote from the days of Paul. Patrick, the great Irish preacher, was born about 360, but according to historians, Christianity in Ireland antedated Patrick's arrival by a long period. Of Patrick Dr. Vedder writes as follows: "Rome's most audacious theft was when she seized bodily the apostle Peter and made him the putative head and founder of her system; but next to that brazen act stands her affrontery when she 'annexed' the great missionary preacher of Ireland and enrolled among her 'saints' ... From the writings of Patrick we learn that his teachings and practices were in many particulars at least evangelical. The testimony is ample that they baptized believers ... There is no mention of infants ... Patrick's baptism was that of apostolic times ... immersion.""

Could it be that the Catholic's St. Patrick's Day is a complete hoax? Could it be that Patrick was a Baptist?

Listen to the preaching of the Word of God on your computer (English and German).

 

[tyndale1946]

Did you somehow overlook this post just recently?... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000241

 

[David Krueger]

Ingo,

Here is an article you might want to read in regard to this topic.
http://www.carmichaelbaptist.org/Sermons/landis1.htm

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Could it be that Patrick was a Baptist?

Listen to the preaching of the Word of God on your computer (English and German).

Done quite a bit of study on Bro Patrick's theology based primarily on the only two extant writings of his that we have, Confessio and Letter to Coroticus. Although we would be hard pressed to consider him a Catholic of the Roman strain (the Celtic Church did not fall into line with the Roman Church until the 10th century) he definitely was not a Baptist. There is nothing in his own writings to suggest that he would be a Baptist and the first history of his life did not appear until about 100 years after his death. The same original sources that are cited to support him holding to baptistic practices also say that he walked on water and once made a fire using icicles.

On a side note, in his fervour to win Ireland to Christ our dear brother, while seeing many saved, failed to properly train the new believers and in less than 100 years the Celtic Church of Ireland had adopted most of their pagan practices into the church. Old gods and goddesses simply became saints in the new church.

 

[rlvaughn]

Another "St. Patrick was a Baptist" article can be found here:
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/patrick.htm

I haven't read it yet; just pointing out its location.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have seen all of these sermons and articles.

Show me from Patrick's writings where he baptised adults by immersion, where he saw the Lord's table as symbolic, where he saw the importance and autonomy of the local church etc.

We can wish it all we want, Patrick was born again, evangelical missionary who was willing to burn out in his desire to see Ireland saved, but he was no baptist.

 

[rlvaughn]

Roger, I have no wish one way or the other as far as St. Patrick being a Baptist -- doesn't change anything in particular for me whether he was or wasn't. I just noticed that on The Reformed Reader last night (actually was surprised to see it there) and then noticed this thread this morning. Thought someone interested in the subject might want to read the sermon.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I apologise if I sounded antagonistic.

I sometimes get a little frustrated with what I perceive as Baptist Revisionism when it comes to history.

I have about 20 books on Patrick and the theology of the Celtic Church. Sadly it is not what some preachers and writers wish it could be.

 

[Salty]

I apologise if I sounded antagonistic.

I sometimes get a little frustrated with what I perceive as Baptist Revisionism when it comes to history.

I have about 20 books on Patrick and the theology of the Celtic Church. Sadly it is not what some preachers and writers wish it could be.

The KEY WORD is wish !!!

 

[rsr]

I sometimes get a little frustrated with what I perceive as Baptist Revisionism when it comes to history.

Surely that would never, ever happen ...

As to the OP: I think there's a good deal of moonshine in attempts to make Patrick into a proper Baptist, as C4K has said. No, he doesn't seem to be quite Roman Catholic, but then, the Roman Catholics weren't even Roman Catholic then.

BTW: Was Patrick a single man or a conflation of two or more? And was really Welsh or (as I firmly believe) a Scot?

But what do I know? I wear orange on St. Patrick's Day ...

 

[Salty]

But what do I know? I wear orange on St. Patrick's Day ...

Oh, I didnt know you were a fan of the Syracuse ORANGEmen

Salty

 

[rlvaughn]

I apologise if I sounded antagonistic.

It's not that you sounded antagonistic (and there's no need to apologize). Maybe I sounded too strong in response to make you think that way. But I did want to clarify why I posted the link to the St. Patrick sermon. I have not researched St. Patrick, though I know about the idea of some that he was a Baptist.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Surely that would never, ever happen ...

As to the OP: I think there's a good deal of moonshine in attempts to make Patrick into a proper Baptist, as C4K has said. No, he doesn't seem to be quite Roman Catholic, but then, the Roman Catholics weren't even Roman Catholic then.

BTW: Was Patrick a single man or a conflation of two or more? And was really Welsh or (as I firmly believe) a Scot?

But what do I know? I wear orange on St. Patrick's Day ...

There is pretty strong evidence that he was one man. His place of birth is questionable, some place on the island of Great Britain. I "think" for what that is worth , that the strongest evidence is that he was born in southern Scotland.


BTW, there is a whole day for wearing orange - the 12 of July .

 

[BobinKy]

Having Scottish ancestors, here is my answer to the question Was Patrick a Baptist?

Never thought about it much. But, sure. Why not? Patrick could have made a good Baptist. He certainly had the persistence.

...Bob

 

[BobinKy]

More words on the St. Patrick -- Baptist theory.

...Bob

 

[Jim1999]

I have 5 books on Patrick, and believe me, the stories about him are legion. Sometimes I wonder if I am reading about the same person in each book.

Some have him born in South-West Scotland. His father and brother were priests. One book says his family were not religious at all.

All books talk about his capture, removal to Ireland and escape.

Another talks of his escape to Wales, where he is schooled in the faith and was baptistic, not a baptist, in his theology.

It is an interesting, and confusing, study. My only solution is to observed May 1st, Dewi Sant Day, the Welsh National Holiday, and forget March 17th....Just kidding.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It is an interesting, and confusing, study.
Cheers,

Jim

Exactly - there is too little actually known to make any definite claims about the chap!

Every Christian group claims him as one of their own and they all have documents to back them up.

I am convinced:
That he lived
That he was a true Christian
That he had a heart for the people of this island

 

[Grace&Truth]

Exactly - there is too little actually known to make any definite claims about the chap!

Every Christian group claims him as one of their own and they all have documents to back them up.

I am convinced:
That he lived
That he was a true Christian
That he had a heart for the people of this island

Roger, are you familar with this History of Ireland - "The Ancient British and Irish Churches [including the] Life and Labors of St. Patrick? http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/lehman/irishamericanstudies/pdf/00000016_mixed.pdf

Chapter XVIII, pg. 155 mentions Patrick being in Naas.

" The Tripartite Life" says: "Patrick went to Naas ;
to the north of the road is his well [his baptistery] wherein
he baptized Dunling's two sons--Ailill and Illann." I Tirechan
relates that Patrick came into the regions of Corcutenme
to the fountain Silli, in 1vhich' he baptized many thousand
men, and he founded three churches.
Patrick's well at Naas was one which he sank and prepared
for immersion; the fountain at Sini was evidently a
eonsiderable spring, with a large natLlral cavity, like others
spokell of, or yet to be mentioned, which, without labor, were
used to " bury believers in baptism." Of the province of the
Deisi, it is said: "Patrick's well is in that place, and there is
the church of Mace Clarid." 3 Patrick's well and the church
are linked together, showing that immersion in the name of
the Trinity was the purpose for which the well was intended.
Again: " Patrick baptized the men of the east of Meath; his
well is III front of the church." 4 This baptismal fonntain,
called Patrick's well, was located by him where it would be
needed f()r the immersion of believers.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Roger, are you familar with this History of Ireland - "The Ancient British and Irish Churches [including the] Life and Labors of St. Patrick? http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/lehman/irishamericanstudies/pdf/00000016_mixed.pdf

Chapter XVIII, pg. 155 mentions Patrick being in Naas.

" The Tripartite Life" says: "Patrick went to Naas ;
to the north of the road is his well [his baptistery] wherein
he baptized Dunling's two sons--Ailill and Illann." I Tirechan
relates that Patrick came into the regions of Corcutenme
to the fountain Silli, in 1vhich' he baptized many thousand
men, and he founded three churches.
Patrick's well at Naas was one which he sank and prepared
for immersion; the fountain at Sini was evidently a
eonsiderable spring, with a large natLlral cavity, like others
spokell of, or yet to be mentioned, which, without labor, were
used to " bury believers in baptism." Of the province of the
Deisi, it is said: "Patrick's well is in that place, and there is
the church of Mace Clarid." 3 Patrick's well and the church
are linked together, showing that immersion in the name of
the Trinity was the purpose for which the well was intended.
Again: " Patrick baptized the men of the east of Meath; his
well is III front of the church." 4 This baptismal fonntain,
called Patrick's well, was located by him where it would be
needed f()r the immersion of believers.

Very aware of this, especially since it mentions Naas. I know the grounds of this church and Patrick's Well. However, like so much of Patrick's history it is very difficult to determine fact from myth. I am always open to more study, but the time period and the reluctance of the Irish at that time of history to record history makes it hard to be certain about any of these things. There is plenty of evidence that he did visit Naas, but the mode of baptism is very much up for debate. There is also an ancient baby style baptismal font attributed to him here.

 

[Grace&Truth]

Very aware of this, especially since it mentions Naas. I know the grounds of this church and Patrick's Well. However, like so much of Patrick's history it is very difficult to determine fact from myth. I am always open to more study, but the time period and the reluctance of the Irish at that time of history to record history makes it hard to be certain about any of these things. There is plenty of evidence that he did visit Naas, but the mode of baptism is very much up for debate. There is also an ancient baby style baptismal font attributed to him here.

Would the Church there in Naas be a RCC or a CoI? Also have you studied this particular History book?