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Stand Your Ground / Murder / Other

How Do You See It?

  • Merely Stood His Ground, Self Defense

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Beyond Standing His Ground, Murder

    Votes: 6 50.0%
  • Other – Depends - Bottom Line

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

My first thought watching this video I leaned toward it being murder as the guy pulled the gun and his attacker had stepped back but he still shot and killed him anyway. My immediate thought, that is not standing your ground because the ground had already been taken back. I mostly saw the worst offense there as a coward with a gun.

BUT, that is the perception from within my capabilities and confidence to have the situation under control with a gun in my hand.

SO, then I had to take into consideration the situation of the shooter. 47 years old, could have had health issues is why he was mad about taking handicap spot (although he was healthy enough to stand there and argue), he was violently pushed down without regard for his wellbeing, likely very shook up and in pain, could have “honestly” [key word] been afraid the attacker might jump at him still before he could shoot. So the shooter being in weakened state (attacked, scared, hurt, and feeing incapable of handling the situation safely any other way) I think justification might be made to stop any further threat.

I also considered the attacker, probably young and dumb, a bully with no respect, but he stepped out to see this guy aggressively shouting at his girlfriend, he comes up to her getting out of the car and the aggressive shooter leaning in as she does, he protects his girlfriend without thinking, overreacts, the once aggressor shooter suddenly turns into scared victim , and he also overreacts and kills him. The physical attacker certainly could of and should of handled the situation better but having to die for poor judgment?

I would still call this murder EXCEPT for the benefit of doubt that perhaps the shooter was placed into a situation that being scared and weak he could not have handled it any other way to insure his safety, might of thought the guy was still looking to do great harm to him and therein had the right to defend himself. Since I can’t know the shooter’s true abilities I can’t judge his reaction.

One thing that really gets under my skin and that I repeat from time to time is that “there is nothing more dangerous than a coward with a gun.” – IOWs, I believe people carrying guns should have a greater responsibility of having enough courage to refrain from using deadly force if possible or that they are a danger owning a gun.

It’s a sad situation, I think both were “overaggressive attackers” and “overaggressive defenders” but I feel the one with the gun had bigger responsibility to control himself being he carried deadly force. He failed to do so and it resulted in the unnecessary loss of a life.

So, all that said, my answer is “Other” - Bottom line: If I were the judge I don’t think I could justify putting the shooter in jail for murder but my goal would be to judge his true capabilities regarding his reaction and I would no qualms about taking away his right to defend himself with deadly force and maybe even giving him a little time to think about his overreaction, if I determined it was.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Murder. The guy with the gun brandished it and that should have been enough. The guy who shoved him was done attacking at that point. The altercation was over. Still, the gunman shot the guy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Looks like murder to me too. The man pushed him once, made no further moves to attack, and once the gun was pulled out the initial attacker was in the process of backing off. The victim wasn't threatening his ground at that point, and made no aggressive move past the initial push. I wouldn't give the man old Sparky, but that is at least manslaughter.
Watching closely, I don't even think the man looked particularly afraid, his weapon presentation and single well-aimed shot engagement was measured and too precise for a man over-come with fear. Excellent presentation? single well-aimed shot? That appears to be motivated by vindictiveness more than fear. Stand your ground means one need not flee an attacker, but the young man no longer qualified as an "attacker" and was clearly backing off.
Some further investigation is needed of course, but as a judge, I could put him in prison and let him "stand his ground" there protecting his honey-buns.
 
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Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
I can’t call it murder. They guy assaulted the old man. Before that, nobody was in any danger. He shoved the old guy to the ground then stood over him.

Impossible to tell any intent without sound. But we can’t have people just shoving old men to the ground because of a parking space argument.
 

Rob_BW

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You can't pick a fight with a woman, and then escalate to deadly force after getting your butt kicked by her boyfriend.

Don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin'.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I can’t call it murder. They guy assaulted the old man. Before that, nobody was in any danger. He shoved the old guy to the ground then stood over him.

Impossible to tell any intent without sound. But we can’t have people just shoving old men to the ground because of a parking space argument.
He didn't really "stand over" him threateningly or anything....he was in the process of backing off when the well presented firearm was discharged, and 47 is not an "old man". Look closely, the victim was back-peddling...backpeddling when that man shot. That's criminal.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
I don’t see him backing off. I stand by what I said.

From now on I will respond to the thread subject. Not any particular post. Done arguing about anything here.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I seems to me there is plenty of blame to go around.

1. Don't park in a Handicap Zone without a Handicap Placard or license plates. (As a handicapped man this really irritates me.)

2. Don't provoke a confrontation while carrying a concealed firearm. (As an armed man I avoid confrontation.)

3. Don't physically attack a person without warning. (Committing a violent battery is not a good way to start a dialog, nor to de-escalate a confrontation.)

4. Don't assume a blade position, which could be viewed as threatening, while facing the person you attacked. (Notice, even after the gun was drawn the man standing assumed the blade position with one arm extended toward the man on the ground. That is a classic martial arts position.)

5. Don't fire a drawn firearm unless your assailant does not cease and desist being an imminent threat. (He should have waited to see if the standing man moved toward him or turned his back. In the first instance he should immediately fire, in the second he should hold his fire.)

6. Don't attack a person half your age who is handicapped. (A disparity in age, size, or health is considered an affirmative defense.)

My conclusion? Self defense under the Stand Your Ground laws in Florida. But it should never have happened.
 

MartyF

Well-Known Member
If the video tape is an accurate portrayal of what happened, murder.

1. The man pushed and did not punch the gunman.

2. It looks like daylight.

3. The gunman instigated the fight with fighting words.

4. The gunman didn’t seem to fear for his life.

Other things that could have happenned and not on tape.

1. The guy who was shot or his girlfriend could have threatened to kill him.

2. The guy who was shot could have been reaching for a knife or pistol.

Stand your ground law in Florida would not be usable in this case.

Marty
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yeah, I don’t think the man looked that much afraid either, it does seem more like unjust payback from an angry and capable man whose only courage comes if he has the drop on someone. Would have to be a pretty loose definition of “stand your ground” and I don’t believe the law was ever intended to support his kind of response. Thinking more about reasonable doubt, it is a bit of stretch to try to defend him being that scared and such only supports that he was too much of a coward to be carrying in the first place, I believe at the best the "I was in fear for my life" plea should buy him is manslaughter rather than 1st degree murder.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He didn't really "stand over" him threateningly or anything....he was in the process of backing off when the well presented firearm was discharged, and 47 is not an "old man". Look closely, the victim was back-peddling...backpeddling when that man shot. That's criminal.
He won’t push people though any more will he?
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Another factor, the store owner said the now dead man was a regular and has had confrontations before over parking in that spot. On this occasion he committed assault & battery with malicious intentions, the action he took against a much weaker person was insanely dangerous. You can’t go around being a bully like that!

Considering these factors I think my manslaughter sentence might be reduced a few years.

Still, the shooter had every opportunity refrain from killing him and could have stood there with his gun for safety and did the responsible and civilized thing and called the police and pressed charges on assault & battery with malicious intentions. I would not let him off scot-free on this phony claim that he "reasonably believed" it was necessary to use deadly force “to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm” afforded him under the Stand Your Ground Law.

His actions were not “reasonable” thinking, so I might have to add a couple years back on the sentence for trying to claim otherwise.
 
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HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Really don't have much sympathy for any if these people but I agree with the sheriff - this is clear SYG.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=776.012&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html

It doesn't matter what time of day it was, a sucker push onto a concrete surface as the start of the physical violence, and this annoying busybody was justified to use deadly force under the law in that state.
It is not "clear" SYG...
The stand your ground statute is a (rightly) passed law meaning a physically threatened man need not retreat before using force to protect himself.

In other words, an advancing attacker is subject to lethal force.

Fair enough, and I agree.

The victim was NOT advancing on this man.
The victim was guilty of assault and no doubt criminally and civilly liable, but the physical confrontation was over, and the man was absolutely NOT advancing on, or continuing to threaten him.
The man all but murdered in cold blood a man that (wrongfully) pushed him exactly one times. and advanced no further.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

My first thought watching this video I leaned toward it being murder as the guy pulled the gun and his attacker had stepped back but he still shot and killed him anyway. My immediate thought, that is not standing your ground because the ground had already been taken back. I mostly saw the worst offense there as a coward with a gun.

BUT, that is the perception from within my capabilities and confidence to have the situation under control with a gun in my hand.

SO, then I had to take into consideration the situation of the shooter. 47 years old, could have had health issues is why he was mad about taking handicap spot (although he was healthy enough to stand there and argue), he was violently pushed down without regard for his wellbeing, likely very shook up and in pain, could have “honestly” [key word] been afraid the attacker might jump at him still before he could shoot. So the shooter being in weakened state (attacked, scared, hurt, and feeing incapable of handling the situation safely any other way) I think justification might be made to stop any further threat.

I also considered the attacker, probably young and dumb, a bully with no respect, but he stepped out to see this guy aggressively shouting at his girlfriend, he comes up to her getting out of the car and the aggressive shooter leaning in as she does, he protects his girlfriend without thinking, overreacts, the once aggressor shooter suddenly turns into scared victim , and he also overreacts and kills him. The physical attacker certainly could of and should of handled the situation better but having to die for poor judgment?

I would still call this murder EXCEPT for the benefit of doubt that perhaps the shooter was placed into a situation that being scared and weak he could not have handled it any other way to insure his safety, might of thought the guy was still looking to do great harm to him and therein had the right to defend himself. Since I can’t know the shooter’s true abilities I can’t judge his reaction.

One thing that really gets under my skin and that I repeat from time to time is that “there is nothing more dangerous than a coward with a gun.” – IOWs, I believe people carrying guns should have a greater responsibility of having enough courage to refrain from using deadly force if possible or that they are a danger owning a gun.

It’s a sad situation, I think both were “overaggressive attackers” and “overaggressive defenders” but I feel the one with the gun had bigger responsibility to control himself being he carried deadly force. He failed to do so and it resulted in the unnecessary loss of a life.

So, all that said, my answer is “Other” - Bottom line: If I were the judge I don’t think I could justify putting the shooter in jail for murder but my goal would be to judge his true capabilities regarding his reaction and I would no qualms about taking away his right to defend himself with deadly force and maybe even giving him a little time to think about his overreaction, if I determined it was.
Can't say from just the snippet. What happened before? How many people did the man face? His vs. their physical condition. What injury did the shooter sustain? What was the person shot saying? Was he verbally threatening the man? Kick boxers step back before kicking a downed opponent(back in the day when it was legal to do). I have seen a seemingly unjustified use of deadly force justified by the prosecutor and grand jury because the initial attack on the victim fractured his skull and severely impaired his thinking and judgment.
Worst case, this shooting is manslaughter because you can not prove premeditation and it was not committed during the commission of a felony. If I were on the jury, Not Guilty.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
An EASY 2 FULL SECONDS 15 seconds, the victim was backing off....

That murderer fired at 17 seconds.....
The only person afraid for their life was the victim of this senseless murder.
 
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