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Star of Bethlehem and Christ's Birth
- Thread starter Mel Miller
- Start date
Mel Miller
New Member
Hi Philip,
I began Ministerial training at MBI in 1940 and
so, except for joining the National Guard, I
never had military experience.
I am retired, at 85, and spend most of my time
studying eschatology. My viewpoint is modified from that held by most Pre-Mills since I start with the premise that the "Day of the Lord" is
a single 12-Hour Day and/or refers to a 1000-Year Millennium beginning at the 2nd Advent.
My website, www.lastday.net, has been up since
May of 1999. I think there is another member
going by the name of lastdaystruth. I go by
just Lastday with address at lastday1@cox.net.
I live in Va. Beach with my daughter and son-
in-law and attend First Baptist of Norfolk.
Our pastor, Eric Thomas, is a son of one of
the executives in the SBC.
Mel Miller
I began Ministerial training at MBI in 1940 and
so, except for joining the National Guard, I
never had military experience.
I am retired, at 85, and spend most of my time
studying eschatology. My viewpoint is modified from that held by most Pre-Mills since I start with the premise that the "Day of the Lord" is
a single 12-Hour Day and/or refers to a 1000-Year Millennium beginning at the 2nd Advent.
My website, www.lastday.net, has been up since
May of 1999. I think there is another member
going by the name of lastdaystruth. I go by
just Lastday with address at lastday1@cox.net.
I live in Va. Beach with my daughter and son-
in-law and attend First Baptist of Norfolk.
Our pastor, Eric Thomas, is a son of one of
the executives in the SBC.
Mel Miller
Mel Miller
New Member
ituttut,
It is true there were other "holy days" besides
the Sabbath; but the "high holy day" following the Day of Preparation had to be a Saturday if
Robert Thomas and Stanley Gundry were correct
that Jews always considered Friday as the Day
of Preparation. Harmony of Gospels, Page 320.
The secret of the 70 Sevens required the last
day of Nisan to be the 69th anniversary of the Decree to build the walls of Jerusalem (using sets of 2520 days overlaid on contiguous sets
of 365.25 days for each set of seven). That
anniversay fell on a 5th Sunday every 7 years!
Daniel's 69 sets of seven had to be overlaid on 68 sets of solar sevens that ended on Nisan 9
for the simple reason that no other number than
a multiple of 68x7 could produce a whole number
of 24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32 and still fulfill 69 sets of 2520 days (69x7) on Nisan 30, AD 32.
Nisan 9 was the only day of the month that could be 21 days prior to Nisan 30 and also be the
last day of 476 years since Nisan 30 of BC 445. Nisan 9 had to be "this day" of Luke 19:42 on which Jesus wept because they did not recognize it fulfilled Zech.9:9.
At the same time, vs.44, Jesus revealed they did not recognize the "time of visitation" which was
from "this day" until His death which had to
be five days later, Nisan 14, two weeks before
Nisan 30 as it was the 69th time that Passover
fell on Friday, Nisan 14 in 483 prophetic years.
Since Jesus died on Nisan 14 which was the Day of Preparation, He died five days "after" He
was presented as "King" in order to fulfill both Zech.9:9 on "this day" as well as Lev.23:5 and Dan.9:26a at "this time". (Nisan 30-21=9th; and 9th+5=14).
The basis for fulfilling each set of 69 sevens (7x360 or 2520) was to overlay it on 68 sevens (7x365.25 or 2556.75 minus 7x5.25 for each set
of 2520 days). Nisan 14 fell on a FRIDAY once every 7 years of 84 months. Passover, on that same basis, was a Friday in BC 4, AD 4,11,18,25 and AD.32 which was exactly 33 1/2 years after Christ's birth in BC 3 of a Julian Calendar or New Year's day of BC 2 of a Hebrew calendar.
Please read my Secret of Seventy Sevens.
Mel Miller at lastday1@cox.net.
It is true there were other "holy days" besides
the Sabbath; but the "high holy day" following the Day of Preparation had to be a Saturday if
Robert Thomas and Stanley Gundry were correct
that Jews always considered Friday as the Day
of Preparation. Harmony of Gospels, Page 320.
The secret of the 70 Sevens required the last
day of Nisan to be the 69th anniversary of the Decree to build the walls of Jerusalem (using sets of 2520 days overlaid on contiguous sets
of 365.25 days for each set of seven). That
anniversay fell on a 5th Sunday every 7 years!
Daniel's 69 sets of seven had to be overlaid on 68 sets of solar sevens that ended on Nisan 9
for the simple reason that no other number than
a multiple of 68x7 could produce a whole number
of 24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32 and still fulfill 69 sets of 2520 days (69x7) on Nisan 30, AD 32.
Nisan 9 was the only day of the month that could be 21 days prior to Nisan 30 and also be the
last day of 476 years since Nisan 30 of BC 445. Nisan 9 had to be "this day" of Luke 19:42 on which Jesus wept because they did not recognize it fulfilled Zech.9:9.
At the same time, vs.44, Jesus revealed they did not recognize the "time of visitation" which was
from "this day" until His death which had to
be five days later, Nisan 14, two weeks before
Nisan 30 as it was the 69th time that Passover
fell on Friday, Nisan 14 in 483 prophetic years.
Since Jesus died on Nisan 14 which was the Day of Preparation, He died five days "after" He
was presented as "King" in order to fulfill both Zech.9:9 on "this day" as well as Lev.23:5 and Dan.9:26a at "this time". (Nisan 30-21=9th; and 9th+5=14).
The basis for fulfilling each set of 69 sevens (7x360 or 2520) was to overlay it on 68 sevens (7x365.25 or 2556.75 minus 7x5.25 for each set
of 2520 days). Nisan 14 fell on a FRIDAY once every 7 years of 84 months. Passover, on that same basis, was a Friday in BC 4, AD 4,11,18,25 and AD.32 which was exactly 33 1/2 years after Christ's birth in BC 3 of a Julian Calendar or New Year's day of BC 2 of a Hebrew calendar.
Please read my Secret of Seventy Sevens.
Mel Miller at lastday1@cox.net.
Mel Miller
New Member
ituttit - member 8890
On the 14th you as this question that I did not
answer directly:
----------------------------------------------
"Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?
----------------------------------------------
The key point is that Daniel did NOT indicate
the 69 sets of seven were 483 "years". He only
stated they were 69 heptads (sevens). They had
to determine that a heptad could be 2520 years.
If this was true, then each set of seven solar
years would be reduced to sets of 2520 days (7x365.25=2556.75 less 7x5.25 or 36.75 days
from 2556.75 = 2520 days).
The Wise Men knew of Daniel's prophecy and that the decree to build Jerusalem's Wall was BC 445.
They knew the prophecy would be fulfilled in
multiples of 30-day months for two reasons and
that 476 (68x7) solar years equalled 483 (69x7)
except for 21 days. Only the 68 sets of solar
years could produce 69 sets of 2520 days.
(1) In the year BC 3 it had already been 442
years since the decree.
(2) The pattern of 30-day months was set by
the 1290 days or 43-30-day months of Dan.12:11.
By the countdown to BC 3, with 442 of the 476 years ended, only 34 years were need to get to 476. The remaining 34 years needed (476-442) would be reached in 33.5 years (33.5x365.25 %360=34). Subtracting only 33.5 real years, Jesus was born in the fall of BC 3 on a solar calendar and BC 2 on a Hebrew calendar; but He was just 1 and 1/2 in the spring of BC 1 on both calendars.
By the fall of BC 1, when the Wise Men came
to Bethlehem and Herod thought Jesus might be two years of age, the King would be close to
30 in about 28 years which would become AD 32.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net.
On the 14th you as this question that I did not
answer directly:
----------------------------------------------
"Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?
----------------------------------------------
The key point is that Daniel did NOT indicate
the 69 sets of seven were 483 "years". He only
stated they were 69 heptads (sevens). They had
to determine that a heptad could be 2520 years.
If this was true, then each set of seven solar
years would be reduced to sets of 2520 days (7x365.25=2556.75 less 7x5.25 or 36.75 days
from 2556.75 = 2520 days).
The Wise Men knew of Daniel's prophecy and that the decree to build Jerusalem's Wall was BC 445.
They knew the prophecy would be fulfilled in
multiples of 30-day months for two reasons and
that 476 (68x7) solar years equalled 483 (69x7)
except for 21 days. Only the 68 sets of solar
years could produce 69 sets of 2520 days.
(1) In the year BC 3 it had already been 442
years since the decree.
(2) The pattern of 30-day months was set by
the 1290 days or 43-30-day months of Dan.12:11.
By the countdown to BC 3, with 442 of the 476 years ended, only 34 years were need to get to 476. The remaining 34 years needed (476-442) would be reached in 33.5 years (33.5x365.25 %360=34). Subtracting only 33.5 real years, Jesus was born in the fall of BC 3 on a solar calendar and BC 2 on a Hebrew calendar; but He was just 1 and 1/2 in the spring of BC 1 on both calendars.
By the fall of BC 1, when the Wise Men came
to Bethlehem and Herod thought Jesus might be two years of age, the King would be close to
30 in about 28 years which would become AD 32.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net.
Mel Miller
New Member
ituttit
I'm sorry, but I should have written "2520
days" rather than 2520 years.
Mel
I'm sorry, but I should have written "2520
days" rather than 2520 years.
Mel
Mel Miller
New Member
ituttit,
And again, I meant AD 30 at the close.
I'm writing this too early on Christmas morning.
Mel
And again, I meant AD 30 at the close.
I'm writing this too early on Christmas morning.
Mel
Mel Miller
New Member
Friends,
Before closing this topic, let me make a note on the birth of Jesus in the "fulness of time".
Between New Year's day, Tishri I of BC 445 and Tishri 1 of AD 32 (when Jesus became 33 years of age), there were exactly 25 Hebrew cycles of 19 years each during which 7 sets of 30-day solar months were added to each cycle so that each new cycle started on the same day or within 3 days of each preceeding cycle on New Year's Day. This was 68 sets of 7; 445-1+32 or 476%7.
The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 32nd birthday on New Year's day of AD 31 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from BC 445 to AD 31.
But the countdown itself required sixty-nine prophetic sets of 2520 days (7x360) which were overlaid on these 476 solar years so as to produce all but 21 days for the 69th set of prophetic sevens.
The 69 prophetic sevens forced Passover to occur on Friday, Nisan 14, once every 2520 days or the
2nd Friday of every 84th set of 30-day months.
The last day of the 68 Solar Sets of Seven
was Palm Sunday, Nisan 14, which was 21 days
shy of the 69th time the Decree of Neh.2:1
fell on the 5th Sunday of Nisan overlaid on
the total of solar days (476x365.25=173,859).
The 476x5.25 extra days provided all but 21
days for the 69th Set of Prophetic Sevens!!
The Magi knew that 445 solar (452.5 prophetic) years (to the fall of what became AD 1) would have passed (with Herod having died in the spring of BC 1) to complete 452.5 prophetic
years (445x365.25%360=452.5).
They could also figure Jesus would be 2 in that same fall of AD 1 and that 31 more solar years would complete 483 prophetic sevens (452.5+30.5 =483; or 445+31 from AD 1 to AD 32=476).
That meant they could even have known He would
be "cut off" in about 7 months after he reached
the age of 33 to fulfill Dan.9:26. He was
"cut off, but not for Himself AFTER" being
hailed as King of the Jews to fulfill Zech.9:9.
"This day", Jesus said, was fulfilled when
He wept because they did not "recognize the
appointed time of His/their visitation" . . .
the Time that included His death 5 days later!
Mel Miller
Junior Member 13061 www.lastday.net
Before closing this topic, let me make a note on the birth of Jesus in the "fulness of time".
Between New Year's day, Tishri I of BC 445 and Tishri 1 of AD 32 (when Jesus became 33 years of age), there were exactly 25 Hebrew cycles of 19 years each during which 7 sets of 30-day solar months were added to each cycle so that each new cycle started on the same day or within 3 days of each preceeding cycle on New Year's Day. This was 68 sets of 7; 445-1+32 or 476%7.
The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 32nd birthday on New Year's day of AD 31 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from BC 445 to AD 31.
But the countdown itself required sixty-nine prophetic sets of 2520 days (7x360) which were overlaid on these 476 solar years so as to produce all but 21 days for the 69th set of prophetic sevens.
The 69 prophetic sevens forced Passover to occur on Friday, Nisan 14, once every 2520 days or the
2nd Friday of every 84th set of 30-day months.
The last day of the 68 Solar Sets of Seven
was Palm Sunday, Nisan 14, which was 21 days
shy of the 69th time the Decree of Neh.2:1
fell on the 5th Sunday of Nisan overlaid on
the total of solar days (476x365.25=173,859).
The 476x5.25 extra days provided all but 21
days for the 69th Set of Prophetic Sevens!!
The Magi knew that 445 solar (452.5 prophetic) years (to the fall of what became AD 1) would have passed (with Herod having died in the spring of BC 1) to complete 452.5 prophetic
years (445x365.25%360=452.5).
They could also figure Jesus would be 2 in that same fall of AD 1 and that 31 more solar years would complete 483 prophetic sevens (452.5+30.5 =483; or 445+31 from AD 1 to AD 32=476).
That meant they could even have known He would
be "cut off" in about 7 months after he reached
the age of 33 to fulfill Dan.9:26. He was
"cut off, but not for Himself AFTER" being
hailed as King of the Jews to fulfill Zech.9:9.
"This day", Jesus said, was fulfilled when
He wept because they did not "recognize the
appointed time of His/their visitation" . . .
the Time that included His death 5 days later!
Mel Miller
Junior Member 13061 www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Please, a minor correction to this paragraph:
"The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 33rd birthday on New Year's day of AD 32 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
This calculation is based on solar years.
(The Hebrew year of AD 32 began in the fall
when He was 33 and was still the same year in the "spring" of AD 32 when He was 33 1/2)
The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from the fall of BC 445 to the fall of AD 32.
It was Jesus' 33rd birthday (not His 32nd) that began a New Year in AD 32 after 475 years had completed 25 cycles of 19 Solar years between the fall of BC 445 and the last day that ended AD 31 (445-1+31=475 or 25x19) on the day before New Year's Day of AD 32.
The "fulness of time" employed 25 sets of 19 years, each of which required the intercalation of exactly seven 30-day months between the first New Year's day to the final day of 475 years between the start of BC 445 and the end of year AD 31.
Thank you.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net
"The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 33rd birthday on New Year's day of AD 32 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
This calculation is based on solar years.
(The Hebrew year of AD 32 began in the fall
when He was 33 and was still the same year in the "spring" of AD 32 when He was 33 1/2)
The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from the fall of BC 445 to the fall of AD 32.
It was Jesus' 33rd birthday (not His 32nd) that began a New Year in AD 32 after 475 years had completed 25 cycles of 19 Solar years between the fall of BC 445 and the last day that ended AD 31 (445-1+31=475 or 25x19) on the day before New Year's Day of AD 32.
The "fulness of time" employed 25 sets of 19 years, each of which required the intercalation of exactly seven 30-day months between the first New Year's day to the final day of 475 years between the start of BC 445 and the end of year AD 31.
Thank you.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net
Mel we still must believe Jesus knew how long He would be in the earth. He prophesied three days and three nights, and He fulfilled prophecy. In the above equation please notice the terms to help determine correctness – “24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32.”. Twenty-four (24) hours is used to arrive at your Friday determination. Since a day and night is considered to be a 24 hour period, and if Jesus was crucified and laid in the tomb on that Friday we still must adhere to the 24 hour day, which we know is correct. Hence, in the tomb at Friday 5:59:59P.M to Saturday 5:59:59P.M. (day 1), to Sunday 5:59:59P.M. (day2), to Monday 5:59:59PM (day 3), emerging from the tomb on Tuesday at Sunset at 6:00P.M, the dawning of the 24 hour day of the Jew. Christian faith, ituttut
Thanks for the answer Mel. I was just wondering if this had been factored in.
I'll not at this point agree or disagree for I am not versed in what you present. All I suggest and maintain is that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and laid in the tomb on a Wednesday in order for prophecy to be fulfilled. Christian faith, ituttut
Mel Miller
New Member
Ituttut,
I ask you to consider that Jews considered any
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.
This is seen in the case of the week between
the revelation by Jesus that some would "taste
death after they see the Kingdom of God having
come in POWER" AND His meeting with three Disciples on the Mt. of Transfiguration.
Matthew and Mark say it was "six days later"
that Jesus took them to the Mount. But Luke
9:28 says it was "about eight days later."
Luke considered any time before 6 PM of the
first day and any time after 6 PM of the 6th
day as a separate day to equal about 8 days.
So you must admit you may be wrong to insist
Jesus was "presented" on a Friday instead of
on Palm Sunday. I have shown that the Day of
Preparation was always Friday, the Day before
the high holy day of Saturday.
So the three days and nights were made up of:
Day one from Friday 5 PM or so to 6PM Friday.
Day two from Friday 6 PM to Saturday at 6 PM.
Day three from Sat. 6 PM to Sunday, 6 AM or so.
The last solar day of the 476 years (68 sets
of Seven; 445-1+32=476%7=68) was Nisan 9 which did not change the last prophetic day of 483 prophetic sets of seven (7x360=2520) as of
Nisan 30, AD 32. (But 476=seven years short of 7x69 or 483). So the 69th set was made up of
476x5.25=2499 or just 21 days short of 2520)!
This forced the final solar day to be Nisan 9
for the Presentation of Christ on Sunday; just
three weeks before the 69th anniversary of the
original decree of Neh.2:1 on Sunday Nisan 30, AD 32. That day occurred 69 times on the 5th
Sunday of Nisan; no more, no less when sets of
2520 days are overlaid on sets of 2556.75 days.
So the last day of the 68 sets of solar sevens
forced the prophecy of Zech.9:9 to be fulfilled
on Nisan 9, 21 days before the anniversary of
the original decree for the 69th time on Nisan
30 of AD 32. The secret of the 70 Sevens can
only be maintained by overlapping 69 sets of
2520 days upon 68 sets of 2556.75 solar days.
Yet the number of days from about 5 PM Friday, Nisan 14, to Sunday AM, Nisan 16, while it was
still dark for Mary's trip to the grave, can be reckoned as three whole days and nights! Jesus
had to die on Nisan 14 to fulfill Lev.23:5.
Thanks for the challenge.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
I ask you to consider that Jews considered any
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.
This is seen in the case of the week between
the revelation by Jesus that some would "taste
death after they see the Kingdom of God having
come in POWER" AND His meeting with three Disciples on the Mt. of Transfiguration.
Matthew and Mark say it was "six days later"
that Jesus took them to the Mount. But Luke
9:28 says it was "about eight days later."
Luke considered any time before 6 PM of the
first day and any time after 6 PM of the 6th
day as a separate day to equal about 8 days.
So you must admit you may be wrong to insist
Jesus was "presented" on a Friday instead of
on Palm Sunday. I have shown that the Day of
Preparation was always Friday, the Day before
the high holy day of Saturday.
So the three days and nights were made up of:
Day one from Friday 5 PM or so to 6PM Friday.
Day two from Friday 6 PM to Saturday at 6 PM.
Day three from Sat. 6 PM to Sunday, 6 AM or so.
The last solar day of the 476 years (68 sets
of Seven; 445-1+32=476%7=68) was Nisan 9 which did not change the last prophetic day of 483 prophetic sets of seven (7x360=2520) as of
Nisan 30, AD 32. (But 476=seven years short of 7x69 or 483). So the 69th set was made up of
476x5.25=2499 or just 21 days short of 2520)!
This forced the final solar day to be Nisan 9
for the Presentation of Christ on Sunday; just
three weeks before the 69th anniversary of the
original decree of Neh.2:1 on Sunday Nisan 30, AD 32. That day occurred 69 times on the 5th
Sunday of Nisan; no more, no less when sets of
2520 days are overlaid on sets of 2556.75 days.
So the last day of the 68 sets of solar sevens
forced the prophecy of Zech.9:9 to be fulfilled
on Nisan 9, 21 days before the anniversary of
the original decree for the 69th time on Nisan
30 of AD 32. The secret of the 70 Sevens can
only be maintained by overlapping 69 sets of
2520 days upon 68 sets of 2556.75 solar days.
Yet the number of days from about 5 PM Friday, Nisan 14, to Sunday AM, Nisan 16, while it was
still dark for Mary's trip to the grave, can be reckoned as three whole days and nights! Jesus
had to die on Nisan 14 to fulfill Lev.23:5.
Thanks for the challenge.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Pilgrimer
Member
To Dr. Bob - In support of your contention . . .
Hello Dr. Bob,
I agree with your assessment. The posting that argues for a 1 B.C. dating contains many factual errors, and ignores a vast amount of historical data that supports the traditional dating of Christ’s birth to the end of December 5 B.C., some several weeks before Herod’s death in 4 B.C. I doubt that there will be any profit in my attempting to address that post but it appears you and I are very close in our views so I would like to offer you a few comments that you might find helpful.
There is no reason to try to fix Jesus’ age at the time of the slaughter of the babes in Bethlehem as being two years old. That wasn’t the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years in age slain. In fact, the word “child” used for Jesus in Matthew 2, at the time of the visit of the magi, is “paidion,” the same word that is used for Jesus in Luke 1:59 when the “child”(paidion) Jesus is brought to the temple for circumcision . . . when he is eight days old. I don’t believe it is necessary to try to force Jesus’ age to explain why Herod had all the babes up to two years slain. The reason has to do with the first appearing of the star. Allow me to posit another scenario and I ask you to give it due thought in the context of the history of that period.
You are aware I am sure that there were two primary centers of Jewish scholarship during this period of time; one was in Jerusalem and the other was in Babylon. In fact, the more familiar you become with the geo-political world of Palestine in the last century B.C. and first century A.D. the more you realize how much influence the wealthy Rabbinic Jews in Babylon exercised in the affairs of the Jewish state and later in the development of Rabbinic Theology. One of the two Talmuds was produced by the Babylonian school.
It is my contention that the magi were in fact Babylonian Jews who were students of both the Jewish Scriptures as well as being “scientists,” which is the best translation of the word “magos.” The explanation that these were gentiles just doesn’t make much sense when you think about it. Why would gentiles even be aware of Jewish messianic prophecy, why would they interpret this star as signifying the birth of a foreign ruler, and why would they travel some obvious distance to worship a foreign potentate? I think it much more likely that these were Babylonian Jews who were well versed in the messianic prophecies of the Scripture and were well studied in what was at that time considered the “science” of astrology, for which Babylon is so famous.
But add to that consideration this bit of data: in three different passages in the Babylonian Talmud (The Book of Elijah, Chapters about the Messiah, and The Mysteries of R. Simon, son of Jochai) it was believed that two years before the messiah a star would appear that would herald his birth. This was based on an interpretation of Numbers 24:17-19. The traditional Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture that placed his birth at Bethlehem is well known because of it’s mention in the Gospel, but there are other traditions that were equally well known to 1st century Jewry.
Another is the traditional interpretation of Micah that the coming of the messiah would be announced from the Migdal Eder . . . or “watchtower of the flock” referring to the watchtower which stood in the field where the temple flock (the sheep kept for sacrifice) was kept just outside Bethlehem on the road to Jerusalem. This would have been the same watchtower where the shepherds would have been keeping watch over the flocks when the angelic host appeared and announced to them the good news of Christ’s birth. It was these same shepherds who went to see the Christ child and then went all over the countryside telling everyone of the things which they had seen and heard, in fulfillment of the Micah passage.
At any rate, I digress.
The point of this post is to suggest that the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years of age slain wasn’t because he had inquired of the wise men when the babe had been born (and therefore Jesus must have been around two years old) . . . but rather when had they first seen the star. According to Jewish tradition, taught by the Rabbinic scholars at Babylon and recorded in three different passages of Talmudic law, they were expecting, waiting and watching for a star to appear two years before the Messiah’s birth.
"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared."
In Christ,
Deborah
Hello Dr. Bob,
I agree with your assessment. The posting that argues for a 1 B.C. dating contains many factual errors, and ignores a vast amount of historical data that supports the traditional dating of Christ’s birth to the end of December 5 B.C., some several weeks before Herod’s death in 4 B.C. I doubt that there will be any profit in my attempting to address that post but it appears you and I are very close in our views so I would like to offer you a few comments that you might find helpful.
There is no reason to try to fix Jesus’ age at the time of the slaughter of the babes in Bethlehem as being two years old. That wasn’t the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years in age slain. In fact, the word “child” used for Jesus in Matthew 2, at the time of the visit of the magi, is “paidion,” the same word that is used for Jesus in Luke 1:59 when the “child”(paidion) Jesus is brought to the temple for circumcision . . . when he is eight days old. I don’t believe it is necessary to try to force Jesus’ age to explain why Herod had all the babes up to two years slain. The reason has to do with the first appearing of the star. Allow me to posit another scenario and I ask you to give it due thought in the context of the history of that period.
You are aware I am sure that there were two primary centers of Jewish scholarship during this period of time; one was in Jerusalem and the other was in Babylon. In fact, the more familiar you become with the geo-political world of Palestine in the last century B.C. and first century A.D. the more you realize how much influence the wealthy Rabbinic Jews in Babylon exercised in the affairs of the Jewish state and later in the development of Rabbinic Theology. One of the two Talmuds was produced by the Babylonian school.
It is my contention that the magi were in fact Babylonian Jews who were students of both the Jewish Scriptures as well as being “scientists,” which is the best translation of the word “magos.” The explanation that these were gentiles just doesn’t make much sense when you think about it. Why would gentiles even be aware of Jewish messianic prophecy, why would they interpret this star as signifying the birth of a foreign ruler, and why would they travel some obvious distance to worship a foreign potentate? I think it much more likely that these were Babylonian Jews who were well versed in the messianic prophecies of the Scripture and were well studied in what was at that time considered the “science” of astrology, for which Babylon is so famous.
But add to that consideration this bit of data: in three different passages in the Babylonian Talmud (The Book of Elijah, Chapters about the Messiah, and The Mysteries of R. Simon, son of Jochai) it was believed that two years before the messiah a star would appear that would herald his birth. This was based on an interpretation of Numbers 24:17-19. The traditional Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture that placed his birth at Bethlehem is well known because of it’s mention in the Gospel, but there are other traditions that were equally well known to 1st century Jewry.
Another is the traditional interpretation of Micah that the coming of the messiah would be announced from the Migdal Eder . . . or “watchtower of the flock” referring to the watchtower which stood in the field where the temple flock (the sheep kept for sacrifice) was kept just outside Bethlehem on the road to Jerusalem. This would have been the same watchtower where the shepherds would have been keeping watch over the flocks when the angelic host appeared and announced to them the good news of Christ’s birth. It was these same shepherds who went to see the Christ child and then went all over the countryside telling everyone of the things which they had seen and heard, in fulfillment of the Micah passage.
At any rate, I digress.
The point of this post is to suggest that the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years of age slain wasn’t because he had inquired of the wise men when the babe had been born (and therefore Jesus must have been around two years old) . . . but rather when had they first seen the star. According to Jewish tradition, taught by the Rabbinic scholars at Babylon and recorded in three different passages of Talmudic law, they were expecting, waiting and watching for a star to appear two years before the Messiah’s birth.
"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared."
In Christ,
Deborah
Pilgrimer
Member
>I ask you to consider that Jews considered any
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.
Not that I have found. The Jewish method of reckoning was to divide the day into 12 hours beginning at 6:00 a.m. and ending at 6:00 p.m. The night was also divided into 12 hours. See Matthew 20. The "third" hour would be 9:00 a.m., the "sixth" hour would be 12:00 noon, the "ninth" hour would be 3:00 p.m. and the "eleventh" hour would be 5:00 p.m. At 6:00 p.m. the night began with it's division of 12 hours. A night and day together equaled 24 hours.
In Christ,
Deborah
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.
Not that I have found. The Jewish method of reckoning was to divide the day into 12 hours beginning at 6:00 a.m. and ending at 6:00 p.m. The night was also divided into 12 hours. See Matthew 20. The "third" hour would be 9:00 a.m., the "sixth" hour would be 12:00 noon, the "ninth" hour would be 3:00 p.m. and the "eleventh" hour would be 5:00 p.m. At 6:00 p.m. the night began with it's division of 12 hours. A night and day together equaled 24 hours.
In Christ,
Deborah
Pilgrimer
Member
> the day on which Jesus was born which was September 11, BC 3 on the Julian Calendar and New Year’s Day, Tishri One of BC 2 on the Hebrew Calendar.
That would require a census to have been conducted on a feast day preventing the feast's legal observance, a circumstance which is historically impossible. In addition, Tisri 1 was a High Sabbath when travel was not permitted. Also, a feast day would have seen a great influx of pilgrim visitors to the city of Jerusalem, not to the town of Bethlehem which lay outside the Levitical boundaries of the Holy City.
Speculation on dating 1st century events has to take into account the historical realities of the period.
In Christ,
Deborah
That would require a census to have been conducted on a feast day preventing the feast's legal observance, a circumstance which is historically impossible. In addition, Tisri 1 was a High Sabbath when travel was not permitted. Also, a feast day would have seen a great influx of pilgrim visitors to the city of Jerusalem, not to the town of Bethlehem which lay outside the Levitical boundaries of the Holy City.
Speculation on dating 1st century events has to take into account the historical realities of the period.
In Christ,
Deborah
Pilgrimer
Member
>Why does the world believe what the Catholic church brought into Christianity, that of the fallacy of Easter, and a Birthday that God did not intend for us to correctly know?
The feast of the nativity was being observed by all the churches from the very beginning of the Gospel. It is first mentioned in the early 2nd century writings of the Coptic Church in Egypt. The western churches, and particularly the church at Rome, resisted the feast of the nativity as being an "oriental invention" and did not concede to the observance until the 4th century. To this day the Coptic Church, as well as the Greek Orthodox church (the "eastern" churches), celebrate the feast of the nativity on December 25 and the feast of the Baptism or "Epiphany" on January 6, which reconciles with the Gospel account that when Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River he "began to be about 30 years old," meaning he had just had his 30th birthday. The churches in Palestine were celebrating the nativity and the baptism as one feast long before the western churches' began their observance.
Easter too was celebrated from the very beginning of the Gospel, long before the Roman church took upon itself the mantle of authority she now claims to have held. No offense to my Catholic brethren, but the Catholic Church would have it that the church at Rome had authority over all the churches in the first few centuries and was responsible for developing Christian doctrine and practice, but history tells a different story. There were many divisons and differences of opinion among the early churches, and often times the church at Rome was over-ridden in matters of doctrine and practice, the celebration of Christmas and Easter being two examples . . . Victor was even admonished by Emperor Constantine himself to stop troubling those who differed from the Roman Church on the issue of Easter. The Catholic Church by no means had the authority to dictate to the Christian world what was and what was not proper doctrine or practice, and the history of that period demonstrates glaringly how such a high-handed assumption of authority was resisted by the other churches throughout the empire. The notion that the Catholic Church "adopted" pagan holidays in order to make Christianity more "palatable" to pagans is grossly untrue. Not to mention what such slander does against the multitudes of faithful Christians who gave their lives in the prisons and arenas of the Roman Empire and wrote the history of the early church in their own blood but who are by these baseless accusations being accused of compromising with paganism. What a shame.
Perhaps it is not scholastic accuracy that drives much of the rejection of traditional Christian celebrations, but rather an eschatological agenda and a large dose of anti-Catholic bias.
In Christ,
Deborah
The feast of the nativity was being observed by all the churches from the very beginning of the Gospel. It is first mentioned in the early 2nd century writings of the Coptic Church in Egypt. The western churches, and particularly the church at Rome, resisted the feast of the nativity as being an "oriental invention" and did not concede to the observance until the 4th century. To this day the Coptic Church, as well as the Greek Orthodox church (the "eastern" churches), celebrate the feast of the nativity on December 25 and the feast of the Baptism or "Epiphany" on January 6, which reconciles with the Gospel account that when Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River he "began to be about 30 years old," meaning he had just had his 30th birthday. The churches in Palestine were celebrating the nativity and the baptism as one feast long before the western churches' began their observance.
Easter too was celebrated from the very beginning of the Gospel, long before the Roman church took upon itself the mantle of authority she now claims to have held. No offense to my Catholic brethren, but the Catholic Church would have it that the church at Rome had authority over all the churches in the first few centuries and was responsible for developing Christian doctrine and practice, but history tells a different story. There were many divisons and differences of opinion among the early churches, and often times the church at Rome was over-ridden in matters of doctrine and practice, the celebration of Christmas and Easter being two examples . . . Victor was even admonished by Emperor Constantine himself to stop troubling those who differed from the Roman Church on the issue of Easter. The Catholic Church by no means had the authority to dictate to the Christian world what was and what was not proper doctrine or practice, and the history of that period demonstrates glaringly how such a high-handed assumption of authority was resisted by the other churches throughout the empire. The notion that the Catholic Church "adopted" pagan holidays in order to make Christianity more "palatable" to pagans is grossly untrue. Not to mention what such slander does against the multitudes of faithful Christians who gave their lives in the prisons and arenas of the Roman Empire and wrote the history of the early church in their own blood but who are by these baseless accusations being accused of compromising with paganism. What a shame.
Perhaps it is not scholastic accuracy that drives much of the rejection of traditional Christian celebrations, but rather an eschatological agenda and a large dose of anti-Catholic bias.
In Christ,
Deborah