Starting to understand how Christ felt in the temple.

The problem is, TS, you're working under the presupposition that ANYONE here has said not to love, but you still have yet to prove anyone has said such. You've set yourself in the seat of the judge. You're doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. Uh...I think the word for that is hypocrite, is it not?

 

Good for you Sky, I am behind you 100%

I am saddened to that Pharisee type behaviour goes on in here. It distresses me that there are people who seem to genuinely feel if they are abusing people for God, then it is o.k. I find that really sad.

Yet there are also people that have the pearl of great price within them here too. Be encouraged Sky, I know how much you show a real love for the Lord in your life, dont be put off by those that would seek to attack you, your Father in heaven will wear their attacks personally. Everytime you are attacked, use the opportunity to pray for a missionary or someone who you know is struggling. Satan soon stops his attack when all it results in is fervent prayer from the Saints.

 

TS posts:

You know, I see a lot of proverbs up there, not anything that says God said NOT to love.

AVL Responds: You have yet to prove that anyone has said that God says not to love. The burden of proof is on you, TS.

TS posts:

I see Romans 2:3 above, funny thing about that, it STILL says not to judge. Granted, it says I'm wrong to judge those who are judging, but it STILL says "don't judge.

AVL Responds: Yet, it says in John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Hmmm...seems your theology is incorrect, TS. You're only quoting half of the story here. Again, you're operating under the presupposition that everyone here is judging everyone else, yet, I find that you have no problem judging others. Uh, I believe that is called hypocrisy, and is what the Pharisees were guilty of doing.
Again, you hae yet to prove that anyone is trying to disprove that God says to love. Just can't seem to get past that, can you, TS?

TS posts: I see a lot of talk about "fools," but to me, denying Christ teaches love is foolish

AVL Responds: Again, TS, you are trying to deflect, and it's not working here. Those verses were SCRIPTURE...you know...the thing that you claim nobody ever posts to refute or reprove you...and shows directly how you fit the catagory. I think DHK did a wonderful job of driving the point home. Also, you state that people here are "Denying Christ teaches love", yet you haven't proven that, though you've been asked several times for proof. Hmmm...I think that your implication of such is what the Bible calls a lie.

False accusations against the brethren is a sin, TS. I fully believe you should practice what you preach before you go spouting off about the love of God. You've lost all credibility here.

TS posts:

] Now,

Larry, what did Christ teach about love, judgment, forgiveness and mercy?

AVL responds: See my response above on Judgment. You have yet to prove that anyone here has said not to forgive and be merciful. Again, you're working under the preconceived notion that nobody here except YOU knows what these subjects are, or how they are taught from the Scriptures. My, how "pious" we try and make ourselves to demean others. So, your post to Dr. Bob about not thinking yourself to be pious is again a false statement on your part. You yourself have admitted that you judge....Hmmmmm....strange you'd be telling others not to. Correct observation of you, TS?

TS posts: I do, though, feel that anyone, absolutely anyone, who in any way tries to reduce the importance of God's command to love is wrong.

AVL responds: Again, TS, prove that anyone has done this. You've yet to do so, and this is much to your shame!

TS posts: And nothing posted, absoutely nothing posted, has shown I'm wrong about that.

AVL responds: You have been refuted time and again and asked for proof of the accusations and outright lies you've made here, and have yet to prove any of them. Again...shame!

 

Ben, the problem arises out of TS's presupposition that everyone here is abusing people who don't know the Lord, or even other Christians. She has stated and brought into the conversation the subject of people judging, yet she herself judges others. This is hypocrisy to the greatest degree possible. Yet, when it is shown to her, she excuses herself for it by feigning an apology, the continuing the judging and false accusations against others. Refuting this type of behaviour is not wrong on our parts. To repeatedly ask for proof of her allegations, which by the way she has yet to prove, is again, not incorrect on our part. She has yet to prove that anyone says we should negate the teaching of Christ on love. She has yet to prove that this is the only doctrine that Christ has taught. She has yet to prove that this doctrine negates all others in the Bible. You can be 100% behind her if you wish, but you're backing up false accusations and outright lies by doing so, and I am disappointed to find that you would do this.

 

Refuting this type of behaviour is not wrong on our parts. To repeatedly ask for proof of her allegations, which by the way she has yet to prove, is again, not incorrect on our part.

Refuting the behavior just keeps the "he said she said" threads going.

To me it seems that Sky (correct me if I'm wrong) is lamenting the lack of emphasis on Christ-like living. Yes the Bible says that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

But "being saved" is not just a vaccination against hell. Newsflash: If you confess Jesus as personal savior you will not see hell. Why is this so? Well - it just says so in the Bible. Doesn't this seem to exclude living a good life? Uh well that's what the Bible said..."

In fundamentalist circles I see a tendency to view salvation as just a vaccination. We've got it and they don't - it's just that simple. That is true in its essence. But Jesus and the NT writers are clear that that "vaccination" brings about a genuine change in a person. The indwelling of the spirit produces love. "Preaching hell" has its place - but let's face it - we're not going to scare people into salvation. That is not a true change of heart.

God is holy and He will judge sin. We seem to think that gives us license to condemn those who we see as in sin. Why is God the judge ( and we not)? Because God sees the inward man and knows the heart. There WILL be judgment on those who reject Christ. But we will bring more people to Him be actually acting like Him then by "preaching hell".

Preaching hell may make us feel better (that's human nature) but it doesn't produce as much fruit among those who do not already have a familiarity with Christianity.

Once again the question: Do we want to see people saved or do we want to just be able to say that we "gave them the gospel?"

 

Good question.


I was reading this and thought it would be a good reminder for everyone...
Philippians 2

1Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from his love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and sympathetic? 2Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one heart and purpose.

3Don’t be selfish; don’t live to make a good impression on others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. 4Don’t think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing.

 

I like you James!!!!

 

Why should people feel guilty of behaviour you've condemned, TS? You've not named a behaviour that I've seen...you have told blatant lies about the majority of people here, twisting their words. You have judged, yet continue to make excuses for such behaviour while condemning others for doing it.

 

The problem is, TS, you're working under the presupposition that ANYONE here has said not to love, but you still have yet to prove anyone has said such. You've set yourself in the seat of the judge. You're doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. Uh...I think the word for that is hypocrite, is it not? </font>[/QUOTE]If she is accusing you of doing something, and you are accusing her of doing the same and calling her a hypocrite...wouldn't that mean you are one too?? *KJ scratches head* </font>[/QUOTE]There is a problem with that. Many here have truly pointed out the generalization by TS of all of Christianity, and then again of attacking and twisting others words. I haven't twisted her words, nor has anyone else here. I am not working under presuppositions of her motives. They are quite clear. So, continue scratching until you can figure it out, Jim. It's not hypocrisy on my part or anyone else who has pointed out her unGodly, one sided doctrine.

 

Avl,

You don't judge? You called me a milkque toast Christian. I aske you to clarify that and you did not. That doesn't seem very nice to me.

 

James,

We need to just hang out sometime. You are the man!!!!! :

 

Good points James and Patrick!

Regarding love...

I'll post this quote from an earlier thread. Tha author (I'll not name so as not to make this a he said she said) siad this of Texas Sky:

She writes way too much feel-good, mushy emotionalism without sound doctrine...some of it makes me wanna puke.

Now I'll ask this...

How is it possible to over emphasize God's love?

Yes God is holy and righteous. I cannot see how He can love us like we are. But yet this holy and righteous God saw fit to send His son to us with the promise that if we'll accept Him in our hearts He will forgive and forget everything we've done - and keep on forgiving! Now is that not love?

There is no doubt that the indwelling of the Spirit brings a changed life - and someone cannot remain in sin without conviction after being saved. Someone who sins and feels no conviction is arguably not a Christian! No one here is suggesting that we ignore sin.

But the offer of salvation is given solely because of God's love for us.

And what's more God has given us the honor of being His witnesses to the lost.

Now I'll ask this: Do we want people to be saved? If the answer is yes then I think "hellfire preaching" has little effect. Now there are some who grew up in fundamentalist churches for whom the "old time religion" with its strictness conjures up nostalgic feelings - that is probably the case for some. But for most that is not going to be a very effective message.

Consider the person with NO religious upbringing or even the person brought up under Islam or Buddhism. How do we show them why Christ IS the real deal? The average street preacher who spits hellfire and brimstone has little credibility. He generally does not know his own faith on an academic level, he generally knows nothing about the faith he is condemning, and he generally doesn't come across as being more loving than the average Joe - so why in the world would anyone (who does not already have an emotional link to Christianity) listen to him? But yet he goes home with the satisfaction of "giving the gospel" and "telling it like it is". I don't buy it. I think he is a clanging cymbal. It is because of this type of "Christianity" that the name of Jesus is "blasphemed among the heathen".

If we want people to be saved we need to show them the love that God showed us (Christians) in offering us eternal life. It is this love (mushy and all that!) which will allow them to see that there is something different about Christians, that Jesus is not just another religion!

I think the attitude espoused by my above quote is one of bitter legalism. The person with this attitude sees Christianity as a strict scheme of rules and wants others to be under the same subjugation. I think it is a poor understanding of Jesus and His message - and I think it will win few souls for Christ.

 

By leaving out God's wrath on sin.

I don't think God's love for us means as much until we realize His holiness and wrath on sin. I can tell you that as a former New Ager, New Agers talk all the time about the love and compassion of Jesus and about how "God is love." This is all they see. They see no sin (except as it is re-defined), no penalty for sin, no need for salvation from sin. They are not seeing God or Jesus wholisticially (I do not use 'holistic' as it has New Age meanings) but only partially.

Having said that, I agree that the love of Christ can woo someone to Him -- this is what happened to me. But I also had to see that I was separated from God (by sin) before I understood the value of Jesus' atonement for me on the cross. It was at that moment that I trusted Christ.

I don't think it's an either/or -- we have to preach hell or we just preach love. We need to present the whole picture -- God's love for us, Christ's love and sacrifice on our behalf, and our separation from God due to sin. We have to present a holy God who cannot accept sin, but out of love, has made provision for us through Christ.

It's not either/or -- it's both.

 

Avl,

You don't judge? You called me a milkque toast Christian. I aske you to clarify that and you did not. That doesn't seem very nice to me. </font>[/QUOTE]You were answered by PM...so I do believe you me an apology.