-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Statues
- Thread starter Moriah
- Start date
- Status
Please give me the exact scriptures you are talking about, that way we can discuss it in context.
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? James 2:20
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. James 2:21-23.
The whole Law of Moses is called "the law." The law included sins not to do and good things to do. In addition, the law had the "works of the law” like circumcision and offerings.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Last edited by a moderator:
Acts 5:30-32 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead---whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
"...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
"...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Oxymoron. You can't have multiple alones. Either its in Christ alone or its not. Either its faith alone or its not. Either its grace alone or its not.
WM replied, "look up the word alone and then get back to me." No need to! You failed to read what I said above, or failed to comprehend what I said.
Look at what I said above carefully. The term "alone" is used to discribe different categories. If I were using it repeatedly to describe the same thing you would have a point. But I did not. Grace, faith, and Christ Provision are not synonyms but deal with different aspects but all in regard to justification.
Christ "alone" because there is no other Savior or Salvation provision - Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12
Faith "alone" because there is no other means to embrace the Christ Provision - Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:16; Jn. 6:29,44; 64-65
Grace "alone" because there is no other basis for justification - Rom. 3:24
Furthermore, the prepositions "by" "through" and "in" distinguish these categories from each other.
"BY" grace rather that BY works -Rom. 11:6
"THROUGH faith" rather than THROUGH some other means - Eph. 2:8
"IN" Christ rather than IN something or someone else. - Rom. 3:25,26
Therefore, to say "BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ alone" is not oxymoronic but rather a careful definition that distinguishes between things that differ and carefully made distinctions in contrast to various kinds of works.
Last edited by a moderator:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Don't try to be clever changing the article or the preposition. The fact is Salvation comes to us by Christ alone. And it works in that to place your trust in Christ you must have grace given and faith resulting in transformative activity which is seen by what do but primarily working in love. Grace, Faith, and working in love come as a whole not independent of Each other. But it is Christ alone which saves.
Otherwise article and prepositional transitions are just games and you end up with an oxymoron.
You fellas have real problems. First, you complain that our stated position "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" is oxymoronic. However, when we explain and show that it is not, then, you complain that we have no right to even state it that way and then shift to a new charge that we are playing games.
However, we did not arbritrarily choose the prepositions in regard to grace, faith and Christ but they are the prepositions used by the scriptures and I noted those scriptures to verify it.
Furthermore, faith, grace and Christ are not synomyns but are distinctly different aspects in regard to justification.
Hence, your complaint of oxymoronic has been proven to be false.
Hence, your complaint that we are simply playing games is proven to be false as the prepositions are aligned with those terms by the writers of scripture.
What will be your next complaint????
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Because it is.
Because you are. You guys want to say everything is alone. God didn't give us alone except Jesus Christ. Salvation is a package with includes grace and faith and works in love. That is why the bible never claims it is by faith alone. Because it works with Grace and those two work in transformative action. You want to make nonsensical oxymoronic statements because you can't determine which it is Faith alone? No, that leaves out Grace, then Grace alone, no that leave out faith, and so on. So you must change the preposition but in the end you are saying the samething it is by faith alone given by Grace alone by reading scriptures alone, in that Christ alone saves thus its no longer one thing as you hope to suggest by using alone but a complex of many things rather than say the truth. Christ alone saves and gives us grace and faith and works in love which is a whole.
No of course not because scriptures supports all of them because scriptures sees them as a group and you know this so you play prepositional games to suggest something scripture says. Its not by faith alone as James said
Yes salvation is a package which needs all of them not just one as you try to suggest.
Hence, your complaint of oxymoronic has been proven to be false.
Not at all which is why the sore spot was hit with you.
That you're blinded by your own game.
It is easy to say "because it is" while completely ignoring the explanation given to prove it is not. Your response is irrational. Grace is not faith and faith is not Christ - these are distinct even though they are a package in regard to justification.
"BY" grace defines the sole (alone) basis for justification and faith is placed in contrast to works (Rom. 4:16; 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9). Hence, indeed it is ALONE in regard to being restricted to that basis and that basis ALONE. "BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith..." - Eph. 2:8
"THROUGH faith" (Eph. 2:8) is the sole (alone) MEANS to receive justification as "works" are set in contrast in Ephesians 2:8-9 while good works do follow this creative work of God. Hence, in regard to the MEANS of reception it is ALONE as no other means is given by Biblical writers.
"IN Christ" (Rom. 3:25,26) meaning in His Person and Provisions found in his life and death is the SOLE object of faith for justification. Hence, in regard to OBJECT that object is ALONE in contrast to any other object of faith for justification.
You don't understand this and your sacramental soteriology will not allow you to accept it but your sarcamental soteriology is repudiated by Romans 4:5-12 decisively and clearly.
James is merely echoing exactly what Paul teaches in Romans 6-8 and that is that works must accompany justification by faith because justification cannot exist apart from regeneration which is God's work that creates us in Christ Jesus "UNTO good works".
You simply do not understand the Biblical doctrine of justification as you attempt to pervert it by sacramentalism and or deny its relationship with regeneration which is inseparable from "good works."
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I heard your rational and explained how it doesn't work. Let me give you an example with your own words
have you notice you have to play with parts of speach because even in your explination we see that it doesn't work Alone but is reliant on other things by, through, IN. Its all a game. You need them all thus is a package. therefore you are Saved not in Christ alone. But salvation is Christ alone. Faith, grace, justification are all one package included in our salvation. You just have to play with words. Can you be saved by faith alone? NO of course not. Faith in Buddah cannot save therefore you must find a way to include Jesus so you add a prepositional statement. ridiculous. Jesus saves us all by himself. You cannot save yourself. Jesus gives you grace, Jesus gives you faith, Jesus gives you justification. Your notion of multiples alone is ridiculous.
The term "salvation" refers to the overall work of God which is inclusive from his eternal purpose before the world began until glorification in the new world to come.
Justification is what we are talking about which is much more restricted aspect of "salvation."
In regard to Justification it is THROUGH faith alone and no other means. In regard to justificaiton it is BY grace alone and no other basis. In regard to justification it is IN Christ alone and no other object.
Nice try to confuse the issue by confusing the terms. Try again.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I have always been clear. You on the otherhand are the on to play games with words giveing the title of alone to 5 different aspects of salvation. Its a wonder you can keep them all straight in your head.
Is this the best you can do? You can't deal with the scriptural support I give for the prepositions in connection with the individual terms because that is the scripture - you call it games - but it is the scriptures that connect the terms with the specific preposition.
You can't deny the distinction between means, basis and object or the relationship to faith, grace and Christ because that is scriptural.
Hence, the phrase "BY grace ALONE" deals with the basis of justification and is Biblically correct.
Hence, the phrase "THROUGH faith ALONE" deals with the means of justification is Biblically correct.
Hence, the phrase "IN Christ alone" deals with the object of Justification is Biblical correct.
I don't isolate them from each other but admit they are a package but a package of distinctions that work in unity in regard to justification and that is Biblical correct.
You are simply left to making empty irrational charges and baseless redicule. That is the best you can do!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I don't have to give scriptural support to show these things
1) The scriptures never uses these terms accompanied by the phrase alone.
2) Salvation is a composit of several different things
3) that the only alone of which you can be sure is Jesus Christ alone
4) when James says faith he adds its not alone
5) The scriptures never phrases the terms you use by, in, through with any of the terms implied with the word alone thus we can note it works in tandem. Grace works with faith - Galatians - Faith works with Justification - Romans - Faith is expressed in works - James and Colosians. Thus they are all the package we recieve with our salvation which is from Jesus Christ alone. And if you are accusing me for Saying Jesus Christ alone saves me then yes that is my best.
You are simply wrong.
"by grace" in regard to the basis of justification is ALONE as the only other alternative is "works" - Rom. 3:14 "freely by grace" "it is no longer of works" (Rom. 4:16).
"through faith" in regard to the means of justification is ALONE as the only other alternative is "works" - Rom. 3:27-28 and works is explicitly denied and Paul repeatedly says "faith.....WITHOUT WORKS" - Rom. 4:4-5.
"In Christ" in regard to the object of justification is ALONE as the only Bibical object of faith - Rom. 3:25-26; 4:24-25; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12).
Ah, but we are not talking about COMPREHENSIVE salvation but only one aspect of salvation - Justification.
The reason you can be sure is ONLY because He is restricted to "grace" alone as the basis and "faith" alone as the means in regard to Him and His provision for your salvation. Remove these restrictions and then there is no certainty that Christ can save you or will save you.
Simply because James is looking at justification in the same way Paul does in Romans 6-8 in connection with LIFE or the fruits of regenerative life which always ACCOMPANIES justification by faith but IS NOT justification by faith.
The scripures do use the exact prepositions with these exact terms and even our phrase places all these prepositional phrases together as a package that is interelated and unified.
For example, no one should confuse repentance with faith as they are distinct and yet they are in practice inseparable. So also these prepositional phrases are distinct ideas but they are inseparably united in regard to justification.
You are trying to fabricate a dichotomy which we do not believe in as we believe they work in unity together in regard to justification but they are not synonyms and thus are valid distinctions that define and restrict justification from sacramental justification which is clearly and explicitly condemned by Paul in Romans 4:5-12.
The word "alone" is not a superstitious word, a panacea that solves all problems. It does have synonyms. There are other ways to state a concept without using the word "alone" and still give the same truth. The word "alone" is not even needed. In fact it is an English word, and the NT was written in Greek.
One way to show is by exclusivity.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith alone.
Why? Because alone is implied in the statement. The statement excludes all other options. It does not say "faith plus baptism," for example. It leaves room for "plus" or "and" but does not give that option. It is "faith" and faith alone.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--This verse is by grace alone in that it excludes works of any kind.
It flies in the face of HP's theology (as well as RCC theology), that salvation must be attained through "continued obedience." Continued obedience is works. If salvation is of works then it is not of grace. Choose one or the other. Grace or works. Here the teaching is that salvation is by grace alone.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Here again Jesus excludes any other way to heaven. No other "savior" will do. He is the only way. Take any other path and it is the wrong path. Christ alone is the way to salvation.
Hence salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Seriously... does any Christian here deny that we are saved by Jesus Christ alone?
Definition of ALONE
1: separated from others : isolated
2: exclusive of anyone or anything else : only
3a : considered without reference to any other
3b : incomparable, unique
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alone
- Status