Statues

[Moriah]

And another observation. What I am finding, especially with the opening post, is that people make assumptions as to what Catholics are doing and what they are worshipping.

Walter, it is easy to obey God. Stop defending what is wrong. Do not look to those statues with reverence. Do not bow to those statues. Do not even worship with statues. It is the command of the Catholic religion to venerate the statues and bow to them. If you hate what is evil and cling to what is good, God will bless you, you would have more understanding.

The assumption that the statues in Catholic Churches are there so that they can be worshipped, that incense is 'to' the statue or 'to' the crucifix' instead the censing around these objects being what Catholics say it is and that is as 'a symbol of prayer' just like the bilbical reason it was used. Psalm 141:3 "Let my prayers rise before you like incense"

You probably have read about the bronze snake that Moses made. When the people were in the desert, and if a snake bit them, all they had to do was look at the bronze snake that Moses made and they would live. Later, the Israelites burned incense to it. It was wrong that the Israelites burned incense to it, and that is why the bronze snake was destroyed. How do you ever get that the Catholics burning incense to the crucifix is okay to do and even good to do?

In giving directives-the rubrics of liturgies- to bishops, priests and deacons concerning censing, I don't know how these directives could be done without using the language bowing TO or censing OF these objects without it sounding like the intent is to offer incense TO the object. These rubrics are not written to teach people about why incense is used but the ACTION of how it is used. Catholics say the intent is not TO it anymore than the incense was used TO objects in the temple but is as a symbol of prayer. I would rather give them the benefit of a doubt and believe they are not lying about why they use incense or why they bow.

Why do you not understand, it is wrong to do, no matter whom the Catholics say they are really thinking of.

As I have said before, I think if Catholics are wrong about the real presence of Christ in the elements of bread and wine in the Eucharist then they are truly guilty of idolatry in genuflecting.

The Catholics do error and sin in what they believe about the bread and wine, and many other beliefs they go against God.

I have heard ex-Catholics on this board say that Catholics genuflect TO the crucifix when entering and leaving church. They were not taught well as Catholics. The reason Catholics genuflect when entering and leaving church is in reverence of Christ true presence in the bread and wine reserved in the tabernacle near the crucifix and altar. However, I will say, if they are wrong about Christ real presence in the bread & wine, then I would say they are guilty of idolatry.

They are guilty of idolatry. Before Catholics sit down , they bow to the altar, even if there is not bread and wine there.

 

[billwald]

>Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow their members to read anti-J.W. material, not just discourage the reading of it.

When the Church was compiling the NT and the ecumenical creeds the Church did not allowed dissenting positions and burned them.

 

[Moriah]

But you’re still violating the Fourth Commandment by not worshiping on Saturday.

No, I am not violating the Fourth Commandment. You violate when you judge me according to a Sabbath. Therefore, I advise you to stop. See Colossians 2:16.

I worship on Sunday also, but I do so because “the memory of man runneth not to the contrary”, i.e., tradition. In fact this tradition was started by the Catholic Church probably in the First Century.

I worship everyday of the week, twenty-four hours a day.

Similarly, the Catholic Church, to whom Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose, declared in 787 that icons are to be used for teaching and as an aid to worship. "By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new 'economy' of images." CCC 2131.

You are adding to God’s word when you say Jesus gave authority to bind and loose to the Catholic Church. Do you not care at all about not going to the left or the right of God’s word? Do you not care at all about adding and subtracting God’s word?

So Jesus is on your mind every waking minute of your life. I rather doubt that.

He is in my heart, and on my mind. I live by His Spirit in all that I say and do, and think and feel. My soul yearns for Him in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for Him.

No, but unlike your rather questionable allegation, Jesus is not on my mind every minute of my life. I don’t really need reminders of Him but they are nice to have. I don’t really need spell check on my word processor either, but it’s nice to have also.

You cling to material objects that have not the Spirit in them.

Your profile doesn’t say what denomination you are but I’m pretty sure you’re not a Catholic. Therefore, you’re Protestant.

Not being a Catholic does not make me a Protestant. I have the same beliefs as taught by Jesus and the Apostles.

Actually some of the things you have said on this thread tend to put you in the Church of Christ camp. For what it's worth, I mentioned the "Protestant Jesus" simply because Protestant artists have portrayed Jesus slightly differently than the Catholic artists and the Mormon artists.

After everything that I had said about pictures of Jesus not being the real Jesus, and that is was wrong to have them, why would you ever think that I thought a different denomination's picture would be okay?
I claim no denomination. I belong to the body of Christ.

 

[Moriah]

>Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow their members to read anti-J.W. material, not just discourage the reading of it.

When the Church was compiling the NT and the ecumenical creeds the Church did not allowed dissenting positions and burned them.

The Catholic Church did not give us the Bible. The rapidly expanding Church in the first and second centuries used the books from the start, which determined the books as canon.
I have heard that before about the Jehovah Witnesses not allowing their members to read anti Jehovah Witness material. When I was a Catholic, I was taught not to listen to any one outside of the Catholic Church, a powerful tool to keep their members where they want them.

 

[Zenas]

No, I am not violating the Fourth Commandment. You violate when you judge me according to a Sabbath. Therefore, I advise you to stop. See Colossians 2:16.

Do you go to church at all, or does Hebrews 10:25 mean nothing to you?

I worship everyday of the week, twenty-four hours a day.

You are adding to God’s word when you say Jesus gave authority to bind and loose to the Catholic Church. Do you not care at all about not going to the left or the right of God’s word? Do you not care at all about adding and subtracting God’s word?

Do you not believe Matthew 18:18?

He is in my heart, and on my mind. I live by His Spirit in all that I say and do, and think and feel. My soul yearns for Him in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for Him.

Isaiah 26:9. I still rather doubt that you think about Jesus 24/7. And if you speak the truth, I hope you don't drive or operate machinery.

You cling to material objects that have not the Spirit in them.

I never said or even implied that material objects have the Spirit in them. No, not even the Bible which some people reverence as though it were a sacramental.

Not being a Catholic does not make me a Protestant. I have the same beliefs as taught by Jesus and the Apostles.

Oh, then you are a Catholic.

After everything that I had said about pictures of Jesus not being the real Jesus, and that is was wrong to have them, why would you ever think that I thought a different denomination's picture would be okay?

Because you were very specific about the "Catholic Jesus" and the "Mormon Jesus" (your words). Yet you omitted the Protestant Jesus whose likeness is seen a lot more often in our culture, at least in the South where I live.

I claim no denomination. I belong to the body of Christ.

Do you attend church? If so does it have a statement of faith?

 

[Crabtownboy]

The word image covers a lot of territory.

Many Baptist and other non-Catholic churches have crosses and flags at the front of the sanctuary. Orthodox churches have icons. I do not see a great deal of difference ... they are images. To me it all boils down to attitude ... what one believes about those images. The flag or the cross can be an idol for some.

 

[Walter]

the word image covers a lot of territory.

Many baptist and other non-catholic churches have crosses and flags at the front of the sanctuary. Orthodox churches have icons. I do not see a great deal of difference ... They are images. To me it all boils down to attitude ... What one believes about those images. The flag or the cross can be an idol for some.

nailed it!!!

 

[JarJo]

... See Colossians 2:16. ...I worship everyday of the week, twenty-four hours a day.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Exodus 20:8-10 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Moriah, it sounds like you are saying that you don't do what God said in Exodus 20:8-10, and that you don't follow it because the new testament passage somehow tells us not to do what God told us to do before? How can you make any sense of this?

 

[JarJo]

I guess I should explain how I understand the old testament law applies to Christians.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Christians are not under the mosaic law. Our rules of morality all come down to Jesus' commandments of love - that we love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. Many of the old testament laws still apply under these principles, but not all of them. The food laws don't fit in under these rules, but many of the other laws in the mosaic law do fit into this. Most of the ten commandments are based on love of God and neighbor, but the specific day in the 4th commandment does not follow directly from love of God, however the idea of setting time apart for God and allowing people rest from work do follow from the law of love. Similarly, the first commandment follows directly from the law of love of God in the sense that we must not have false gods, but the specific mention of graven images which made sense when God had no incarnate form to be represented by a work of art, no longer follows directly from the commandment to love God with all our heart mind and soul. In fact we have crucifixes and pictures of Jesus in our home to promote and increase our love of God.

So in Acts 15 the apostles were applying Jesus great commandments to the gentile converts and decided that they had to follow some rules but not others. This power to judge what rules follow directly from the law of love was part of the authority given to the apostles to guide and teach the church.

 

[DHK]

I guess I should explain how I understand the old testament law applies to Christians.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

First, the answer above was given in answer to a lawyer who gave Jesus a question "Which is the greatest commandment of all." It is presumed that the lawyer was referring to the Ten Commandments. Thus all other commands such as those pertaining to diet and clothing etc. are moot points.

Second, These two commandments do summarize the Ten. The first one summarizes our relationship with God which is stated in the first four commands. The second commandments summarizes are relationship with man which is stated in the last six commands.

Third, all but one of these commands are mentioned in the NT. The one that is not commanded for believers to keep is "Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day." This is because it was a command given specifically for the Jewish nation.

(Exo 31:16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(Exo 31:17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The keeping of the Sabbath Day was a covenantal sign between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It was never meant for Gentile believers to keep.

 

[JarJo]

First, the answer above was given in answer to a lawyer who gave Jesus a question "Which is the greatest commandment of all." It is presumed that the lawyer was referring to the Ten Commandments. Thus all other commands such as those pertaining to diet and clothing etc. are moot points.

Second, These two commandments do summarize the Ten. The first one summarizes our relationship with God which is stated in the first four commands. The second commandments summarizes are relationship with man which is stated in the last six commands.

Third, all but one of these commands are mentioned in the NT. The one that is not commanded for believers to keep is "Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day." This is because it was a command given specifically for the Jewish nation.

(Exo 31:16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(Exo 31:17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The keeping of the Sabbath Day was a covenantal sign between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It was never meant for Gentile believers to keep.

I'm not sure that the question was just about the 10 commandments. Jesus didn't respond with an answer from the 10 commandments, instead his answer was two of the commandments from the larger mosaic law:
Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And Do you not set aside one day a week for the Lord? Is it okay to make someone work for 7 days a week? Most Christians follow at least some part of the 4th commandment.

Also how do you pick and choose which old testament laws to follow? There are rules about sexual morality, foreign aliens, tithing, charging interest, etc. etc., Not every one of them is mentioned in the new testament.

 

[billwald]

Ray VanderLaan teaches that the Ten Commandments are like chapter headings in books.

He teaches that in those days a king would make two copies of main points of a covenant and each party would take one copy and put it in his most sacred place. Moses took both copies because his most sacred place was the same as God's most sacred place on this earth.

 

[DHK]

I'm not sure that the question was just about the 10 commandments. Jesus didn't respond with an answer from the 10 commandments, instead his answer was two of the commandments from the larger mosaic law:
Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Those two commands summarize all ten.

And Do you not set aside one day a week for the Lord? Is it okay to make someone work for 7 days a week? Most Christians follow at least some part of the 4th commandment.

To keep the Sabbath:
Never travel more that a Sabbath Day's journey (5/8ths of a mile)
Never cook on the Sabbath (make coffee or tea, or use anything that represents fuel--electricity or gas.) Don't make any food at all. All must be made the day before.
Even going to a restaurant would be causing others to break the Sabbath.
Don't go to any store of any kind, buy gas or do any shopping whatsoever.
Don't turn on your computer or TV. That would be considered extra work and energy expended unnecessarily. Consider that they were not allowed to gather fuel then. A boy was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.
--Read the laws concerning keeping the Sabbath. I don't believe you could ever keep the Sabbath. It was a day given for the Jews.
And the Sabbath is only on Saturday; not on Sunday. Sunday is the first day of the week. The Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week. Christ arose the first day of the week, Sunday. On the seventh day, Saturday, God rested. Are you sure you keep the Sabbath Day holy?

Also how do you pick and choose which old testament laws to follow? There are rules about sexual morality, foreign aliens, tithing, charging interest, etc. etc., Not every one of them is mentioned in the new testament.

I am not under the law; I am under grace.

 

[JarJo]

Those two commands summarize all ten.

To keep the Sabbath:
Never travel more that a Sabbath Day's journey (5/8ths of a mile)
Never cook on the Sabbath (make coffee or tea, or use anything that represents fuel--electricity or gas.) Don't make any food at all. All must be made the day before.
Even going to a restaurant would be causing others to break the Sabbath.
Don't go to any store of any kind, buy gas or do any shopping whatsoever.
Don't turn on your computer or TV. That would be considered extra work and energy expended unnecessarily. Consider that they were not allowed to gather fuel then. A boy was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.
--Read the laws concerning keeping the Sabbath. I don't believe you could ever keep the Sabbath. It was a day given for the Jews.
And the Sabbath is only on Saturday; not on Sunday. Sunday is the first day of the week. The Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week. Christ arose the first day of the week, Sunday. On the seventh day, Saturday, God rested. Are you sure you keep the Sabbath Day holy?

I am not under the law; I am under grace.

No, I don't keep the sabbath. But we keep aspects of it. We have 1 day a week that we set aside for the Lord and only do work on that day if it is necessary. It's not the same as the sabbath, but it takes some of the aspects of the sabbath that are relevant to love of God and neighbour.

I agree with you - we are not under the law, we are under grace. Our moral actions are guided by the law of love written on our hearts. This gives us freedom to apply the law of love to new situations without a thick list of laws that govern our every action.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

It is under this freedom that some Christians have decided there is a place for images of Christ in their worship, in a way that interprets the commandments in light of the new reality of an incarnate God and in light of the fact that the images help us love God more instead of detracting from our love of God.

 

[Moriah]

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Exodus 20:8-10 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Moriah, it sounds like you are saying that you don't do what God said in Exodus 20:8-10, and that you don't follow it because the new testament passage somehow tells us not to do what God told us to do before? How can you make any sense of this?

Stop disobeying God right now. It is not so hard to understand. Do not judge anyone by a Sabbath day. Why are you judging me about a Sabbath day? It is not so hard for you to obey the Word of God. Why does His Word not make sense to you?

 

[Moriah]

It is under this freedom that some Christians have decided there is a place for images of Christ in their worship, in a way that interprets the commandments in light of the new reality of an incarnate God and in light of the fact that the images help us love God more instead of detracting from our love of God.

No way, you cannot do anything you feel like because we are under grace. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. The Sabbath day was a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ. How do you think disobeying by making statues and bowing to them is a command you no longer have to obey? We are even told in the New Testament to not make idols.

 

[Moriah]

I guess I should explain how I understand the old testament law applies to Christians.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Christians are not under the mosaic law. Our rules of morality all come down to Jesus' commandments of love - that we love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. Many of the old testament laws still apply under these principles, but not all of them. The food laws don't fit in under these rules, but many of the other laws in the mosaic law do fit into this. Most of the ten commandments are based on love of God and neighbor, but the specific day in the 4th commandment does not follow directly from love of God, however the idea of setting time apart for God and allowing people rest from work do follow from the law of love. Similarly, the first commandment follows directly from the law of love of God in the sense that we must not have false gods, but the specific mention of graven images which made sense when God had no incarnate form to be represented by a work of art, no longer follows directly from the commandment to love God with all our heart mind and soul. In fact we have crucifixes and pictures of Jesus in our home to promote and increase our love of God.

So in Acts 15 the apostles were applying Jesus great commandments to the gentile converts and decided that they had to follow some rules but not others. This power to judge what rules follow directly from the law of love was part of the authority given to the apostles to guide and teach the church.

Through Jesus, we do not have to do the righteous works of the law, righteous works are when the Jews were circumcised; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations.

 

[Moriah]

The word image covers a lot of territory.

Many Baptist and other non-Catholic churches have crosses and flags at the front of the sanctuary. Orthodox churches have icons. I do not see a great deal of difference ... they are images. To me it all boils down to attitude ... what one believes about those images. The flag or the cross can be an idol for some.

Catholic priests are commanded to bow to the crucifix, and other "Holy Images." All Catholics are commanded to venerate these objects. The Catholic priest even incenses these objects. Those things are against the commands of God.
For other churches who just use a cross or a flag, I would say they could be tempting people who could idolize these images. Just do not make these images. It is simple.

 

[DHK]

No, I don't keep the sabbath. But we keep aspects of it. We have 1 day a week that we set aside for the Lord and only do work on that day if it is necessary. It's not the same as the sabbath, but it takes some of the aspects of the sabbath that are relevant to love of God and neighbour.

To set aside one day a week for rest is a principle derived from Genesis one, from Creation (some call it the Creation-sabbath). God rested on the seventh day. It is not a law, but an example for us to follow. We don't follow the Levitical law.
We also set aside Sunday in remembrance of the Resurrection of Christ.

I agree with you - we are not under the law, we are under grace. Our moral actions are guided by the law of love written on our hearts. This gives us freedom to apply the law of love to new situations without a thick list of laws that govern our every action.[/quote}
And at the same time there are many "commands" that the Lord has given us. Some say that more is required of us under grace, then there was for the nation of Israel, under law. Think about it.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--Is your body a living sacrifice? Are you conformed to Christ, and not to the world?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--To be crucified means to be put to death. Have you put to death all of your desires, so that you are totally submitted to Christ and him alone?

A Christian, sold out to the Lord does not live an easy love, but rather a rewarding love.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

It is under this freedom that some Christians have decided there is a place for images of Christ in their worship, in a way that interprets the commandments in light of the new reality of an incarnate God and in light of the fact that the images help us love God more instead of detracting from our love of God.

Heb.10:16 is a quote from Jer.31. The book of Hebrews was written, as the name says, to Hebrew Christians. They were tempted to return to Judaism. That particular verse was directed to them. The paragraph ends at verse 18, and the application that we can make for ourselves begins with verse 19.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
"Therefore" we have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus."

Images don't help anyone worship God; they hinder it.
God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
--Those are the words of Jesus given in John 4:24. He commands us to worship without images for God is spirit. We don't know what Christ looks like, and God has no physical form. He is spirit. Therefore we are commanded not to make images of one who is spirit. It is impossible. Like the age-old question: How many angels can stand on the head of pin-point? They are spirits. We are commanded not to make images of God. We are commanded not to bow down to any image.

 

[Moriah]

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. It was against the law to work on the Sabbath. It was not against the law to do good on the Sabbath, it was against the law to sin on the Sabbath. We are saved by faith, and not of by works, do you not see how Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and how the Sabbath is a shadow of the things that were to come, Jesus Christ. However, we repent of our sins when we are saved; repenting of sins is not a work! Again, it was not unlawful to do good on the Sabbath, but it was wrong to sin on the Sabbath.
When someone tells you that you are saved by faith and not by works, that means we are not saved by circumcision; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations, or by sin offerings. God nailed those things to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be saved. However, not all of the Old Testament laws were things we no longer have to obey.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,