Statues

[Moriah]

Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

Deuteronomy 4:15-17 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air,

Micah 5:13 will destroy your carved images and your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands.


In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass ("Ritus servandus" in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly "to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it" when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
__________________

 

[Moriah]

The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake and the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any images of Jesus and the saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), it is not okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix!

2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass ("Ritus servandus" in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly "to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it" when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

READ HERE WHAT THE CATHOLICS SAY ABOUT INCENSING.
Catholics symbolism and manner of incensing:

Incense, with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian's prayer, which, enkindled in the heart by the fire of God's love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (cf. Amalarius, "De eccles. officiis" in P.L., CV). Incensing is the act of imparting the odour of incense. The censer is held in the right hand at the height of the breast, and grasped by the chain near the cover; the left hand, holding the top of the chain, is placed on the breast. The censer is then raised upwards to the height of the eyes, given an outward motion and slightly ascending towards the object to be incensed, and at once brought back to the starting point. This constitutes a single swing. For a double swing the outward motion should be repeated, the second movement being more pronounced than the first. The dignity of the person or thing will determine whether the swing is to be single or double, and also whether one swing or more are to be given. The incense-boat is the vessel containing the incense for immediate use. It is so called from its shape. It is generally carried by the thurifer in the disengaged hand. new advent.org/cathen/07716a.htm

 

[JarJo]

JarJo,
Stop acting like the innocent victim.
In addition, you have been shown scriptures that plainly tell you NOT to make images, NOT to bow down to them, YET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMMANDS THE BOWING TO THESE STATUES AND ALL “HOLY IMAGES.”

If the scriptures are plain, then either

1. I'm an idiot
2. I'm insincere
3. I'm brainwashed

All of these three possibilities are insulting. Which of them are you accusing me of?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The fact is that Protestant Scholars and Protestant Universities do not agree with your Catholic Scholars.

When speaking of History the truth is some or few Protestant Scholars and Universities do not agree with Catholic Scholars having Gone to two protestant universities there is a lot agreed on

Indeed, the Presbyertian Westminister Confession of Faith when dealing with the doctrine of the church states the very thing I do concerning the term "Catholic."

red herring. Entirely different topic. But if you went to St. Andrews you would find out with regard to historical events and writings they are very Close.

I hate to break it to you but I simply do not believe Augustine's revisionists history of the Donatist debate

Why would you then quote someone as authoritative that you don't believe to begin with. That makes no sense. The fact that you believe in the pamphlet the Trail of Blood shows your lack of scholarly insight to the history of Christianity. That Pamphlet has been debunked time and again. Donatist were exactly as I said they were and they were not baptist. Any credible historian protestant and catholic will tell you that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If the scriptures are plain, then either

1. I'm an idiot
2. I'm insincere
3. I'm brainwashed

All of these three possibilities are insulting. Which of them are you accusing me of?

Whats funny is when they say Catholics don't read the bible then you use the bible and then they say Satan can use the bible too. I find that funny.

 

[DHK]

The True Church is the body of Christ which is made up of all believers, including Baptists and Catholics, IMO. I did not say what you accuse me of saying.

Not according to the RCC. According to their Catechism and Vatican II the true church consists in the RCC and the RCC alone. Would you like to defend your beliefs using the Council of Trent?

 

[The Biblicist]

red herring. Entirely different topic.

ii. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;(1) and of their children2) and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,(3) the house and family of God,(4) out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.(5) - Westminister Confession of Faith

Why would you then quote someone as authoritative that you don't believe to begin with. That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense to quote whatever admissions and contradictions of our persecutors.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not according to the RCC. According to their Catechism and Vatican II the true church consists in the RCC and the RCC alone. Would you like to defend your beliefs using the Council of Trent?

Thats not quite true.

Catholics hold that Protestants who have these dispositions, and who have no suspicion of their religion being false, and no means to discover, or fail in their honest endeavors to discover, the true Religion, and who are so disposed in their heart that they would at any cost embrace the Roman Catholic Religion if they knew it to be the true one, are Catholics in spirit and in some sense within the Catholic Church, without themselves knowing it. She holds that these Christians belong to, and are united to the "soul," as it is called, of the Catholic Church, although they are not united to the visible body of the Church by external communion with her, and by the outward profession of her faith.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ii. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;(1) and of their children2) and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,(3) the house and family of God,(4) out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.(5) - Westminister Confession of Faith



It makes perfect sense to quote whatever admissions and contradictions of our persecutors.

still a red herring because we are discussing what Catholics understand the word Catholic to mean and what it really means. Thus the Westminster confession of faith is a non sequitur.

And it doesn't make sense to quote a person to have authority by which you claim has no authority another red herring.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thats not quite true.

The typical mental gymnastics of Rome! So Rome believes in a universal visible and a universal invisible body of Christ? The all inclusive church that also believes devout Hindu's, Muslims and members of all other non-Christian cults, if devout and ignorant are members as well - The Great Harlot!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The typical mental gymnastics of Rome! So Rome believes in a universal visible and a universal invisible body of Christ? The all inclusive church that also believes devout Hindu's, Muslims and members of all other non-Christian cults, if devout and ignorant are members as well - The Great Harlot!

That is a purposeful misrepresentation as in that is not what the quote said! Its Christians who hold a certain belief. Which naturally excludes Hindus, Muslims, and member s of other non-Christian cults. Thus I call foul on you. The quote was rather specific. Not all protestants are under the Church and those have an unfortunate end. But only those whom the passage specifically mentions.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is a purposeful misrepresentation as in that is not what the quote said! Its Christians who hold a certain belief. Which naturally excludes Hindus, Muslims, and member s of other non-Christian cults. Thus I call foul on you. The quote was rather specific. Not all protestants are under the Church and those have an unfortunate end. But only those whom the passage specifically mentions.

So, you are going on record to deny that Rome considers devout but ignornat members of other non-Christian religions to be lost and going to hell and thus not part of either the "soul" of the church or the visible body of the church??? Is that correct?

 

[The Biblicist]

So, you are going on record to deny that Rome considers devout but ignornat members of other non-Christian religions to be lost and going to hell and thus not part of either the "soul" of the church or the visible body of the church??? Is that correct?

#841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongs whom are THE MOSLEMS; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"

Anyone with a summary knowledge of the Muslim religion knows they repudiate the God of Abraham and deny the Trinity and reduce Jesus Christ to an inferior prophet to their prophet Muhammed. Thus the Great Whore embraces false religion into its bosom and her false gods.

 

[JarJo]

Not according to the RCC. According to their Catechism and Vatican II the true church consists in the RCC and the RCC alone. Would you like to defend your beliefs using the Council of Trent?

Hi DHK,

The missing piece of the puzzle is we believe everyone who is Christian automatically becomes an honorary member of the one church. And of course we believe that one church subsists in the catholic church Welcome aboard! :thumbs: hehe

 

[Zenas]

First, why don't you apply this to stealing, lying and adultery???

I don’t know what you mean by “this,” but these things go to the very heart of the very heart of Jesus’ second commandment, “Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.” There is nothing in either of His commandments that would prohibit the use of statues.

Second, the first three commandments are eternal because God is eternal and violating those commandments perverts God and true worship to the true God.

God is eternal but it doesn’t necessarily follow that the first three commandments are eternal, especially the Second. That’s your idea and you’re entitled to it. But if Jesus appeared before you, He would probably scold you for being such a Pharisee. He would say something like, “Biblicist (or whatever your real name is), why are you castigating people for practices that honor me?” Remember what He said to those who were critical of the woman who anointed His head with the costly perfume?

Third, the Mosaic law as a "covenant" under a theocratic earthly government has been abolished and Leviticus is part of the ceremonial Levitical law (Col. 2:16).

Like I said to DHK yesterday, this is an inference that could be made by reasonable persons. It’s not totally clear how broadly Paul intended that statement to be read. It could imply a total abolishment of all the law, ceremonial and otherwise. Or it could be limited strictly to food, drink, festivals, new moon and Sabbath. I would note that neither the N.T. nor the O.T. expresses a dichotomy between the ceremonial law and the moral law. Both were given to Moses directly by God.

Fourth, is this the best response you have?? If so, then you have conceded defeat already.

Actually I thought it was pretty good, and I expect others who agree with me thought so too.

 

[DHK]

Thats not quite true.

The true body of Christ does not believe what the RCC believes.
The RCC does not believe what the Bible teaches as is evidenced by the Council of Trent.

DECREES

The council issued a number of important doctrinal decrees. It affirmed that all the books of the Bible, including the Apocrypha or deuterocanonical books not found in the Hebrew bible and rejected by Luther, were inspired and that the Vulgate version was "authentic," that is, could be used in sermons and disputations. Critical editions and translations were subject to ecclesiastical censorship. The Bible was to be interpreted according to the sense given to it by the church over the centuries. Unwritten apostolic traditions, whether dictated orally by Christ or by the Holy Spirit, were also a source of saving truths and rules of conduct. It restated the teaching of the Council of Orange (529) on the existence, nature, and effects of original sin, rejecting both Pelagian optimism and Lutheran pessimism. It taught that justification, whereby one's sins were remitted and one became just and could grow in holiness through good works "done in God," was an unmerited gift of God, but that those with the power of discretion must freely cooperate with grace. The traditional seven sacraments (baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance or reconciliation, extreme unction or anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony) were taught as having been instituted by Christ (whether immediately or mediately is not defined), to contain the graces they signify, and in the case of baptism, confirmation, and holy orders to leave an indelible mark on the soul so that they could not be repeated. Baptism by water even of children was necessary for salvation. In the Eucharist the bread and wine were changed into the true Body and Blood of Christ (transubstantiation), the pope was to decide when and where it was prudent to allow reception of the Eucharist under both forms, the Mass was a sacrifice, auricular confession of one's mortal sins to a priest was required, and marriage to be valid was henceforth to be contracted before a priest and witnesses. The existence of purgatory and the veneration of saints, relics, and sacred images were also decreed.

Among the principal reform decrees were those requiring a bishop to preach and reside in his diocese. A bishop was to conduct a visitation of his diocese and celebrate a synod annually. He was also to establish a lectureship on the Bible and to see that catechetical instruction was provided for the laity in parishes and that his clergy were properly trained in ecclesiastical disciplines in colleges—this led to the establishment of seminaries. Parish churches (and not confraternity churches and private chapels) were to be the settings for the laity's regular religious worship and instruction. Books were not to be published until their orthodoxy had been determined by the local ordinary or pope—this led to the issuance of lists or indices of forbidden books. Religious art was encouraged as a means for instruction and incitement of piety, but care was to be exercised that no false doctrine or unbecoming and confusing scene was depicted and no superstitious practices allowed. Avoiding more restrictive prescriptions, the council decreed that music was allowed in church provided it was not "base and suggestive," and it ordered seminarians to be taught to chant. The council entrusted to the pope the completion of a number of tasks it was unable to finish, and asked him to confirm its decrees.

By the bull Benedictus Deus, dated 26 January 1564 but issued on June 30th, Pope Pius IV confirmed all the decrees of the council unaltered and ordered their implementation. The first official edition of the decrees had been printed in Rome by Paolo Manuzio on 18 March 1564. The pope forbade the publication of any glosses or commentaries on them and established the Congregation of the Council on 2 August 1564 to interpret them. The principal doctrinal teachings of the council he summarized in the Professio Fidei Tridentina, to which all university professors (10 November 1564) and prelates (13 November 1564) were required to swear. Support for implementing the decrees was sought and secured from the rulers of Catholic states: Spain, Portugal, Venice, and Poland-Lithuania in 1564, the Catholic Swiss Cantons in 1565, and the Catholic Estates of the Empire in 1566. When the king and Estates-General of France repeatedly refused to confirm the decrees of Trent, French bishops met on their own and did so in 1615. Provincial councils applied Trent's decrees on the local levels. The decrees of the six Milanese provincial councils (1565–1582) held under Carlo Borromeo (1538–1584) and published together in 1582 as Acta Ecclesiae Mediolanensis became the model throughout Catholic Europe for much of the implementing legislation on the provincial and diocesan levels. The papacy brought to completion the tasks assigned to it by the council, issuing revised indices of forbidden books (1564 and 1596), the first Roman Catechism (1566), and corrected editions of the Breviary (1568) and Missal (1570). The decisions of the Congregation of the Council imposed on Catholicism a uniformity and passive deference to Rome that became known as Tridentinism. The implementation of Trent's decrees on the local level, pushed forward by papal nuncios, reforming bishops and religious, and dedicated Catholic rulers, took many generations to effect.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Council_of_Trent.aspx

 

[JarJo]

So, you are going on record to deny that Rome considers devout but ignornat members of other non-Christian religions to be lost and going to hell and thus not part of either the "soul" of the church or the visible body of the church??? Is that correct?

Hi Biblicist,
The sin of heresy is considered serious enough to lose your salvation, but for that to happen it would have to be done knowingly and freely. Since you most likely do not knowingly embrace heresy, it probably isn't something that would break off your relationship with Christ, and so your faith in Christ could still certainly save you.

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK,

The missing piece of the puzzle is we believe everyone who is Christian automatically becomes an honorary member of the one church. And of course we believe that one church subsists in the catholic church Welcome aboard! :thumbs: hehe

For those that are knowledgeable with the gospel according to the teaching of the Bible, and the teachings of the RCC, it is impossible to believe both at the same time. It is like saying I am a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. You must decide one or the other. One cannot believe in the false message of the RCC and be a Christian at the same time. It is an impossibility just as it is impossible to be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.

The RCC practices inclusivism. In fact in their Catechism they say that Muslims are going to Heaven. They certainly don't believe that Christ is God. Yet, Jesus said: "I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me. Islam teaches that the way to paradise is through Mohammed and the teachings of the Koran. You can't have it both ways. Now, who do you think is right?

 

[Zenas]

You do not know your own religion.

The following paragraph is part of an article that explains further the acts Catholics perform.

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. [snip] In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

It's not my own religion. I'm a Southern Baptist, going on 67 years, ordained deacon for 25 years, Sunday School teacher for 28 years. But I have been troubled of late with some Baptist beliefs that are out of sync with scripture.

Now about what you claim is the law of the Church regarding vereration of icons, the Catechism is a somewhat higher authority on Church doctrines and here is what it says:

IV. "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure...." It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works." He is "the author of beauty."

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

CCC 2129-2132 (footnotes omitted).

 

[The Biblicist]

I don’t know what you mean by “this,” but these things go to the very heart of the very heart of Jesus’ second commandment, “Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.”

He said that ALL the commandments hang on these two and that would include ALL ten commandments. Hence, the Great Commandments do not abolish the ten commandments but rather reinforce them under the motive of love which is a stronger motive than fear.

Obedience to the law does not justify anyone but it does instruct us in the knowledge of right and wrong.

The Moral law exists as long as there are moral beings with a Moral Creator but it exists for the purpose it was given to men.

Furthermore, your quotation of Leviticus 19 and the cuttings refer historically to the religion of Egypt and how they served their gods. Get a good commentary and they will provide the historical setting. However, the moral princple behind that command rests upon the first three of the ten commandments - false worship and false gods.

There is nothing in either of His commandments that would prohibit the use of statues.

Here is what you are completely ignoring. First the command literally prohibits the making of images of anything in heaven and earth. So it does prohibit the use of graven statues in worship.

Second, you cannot use the images in the temple made by Moses and Solomon to support your position because such images were (1) directly commanded by God (2) according to a heavenly pattern revealed to them and no such command and no such pattern was provided Rome by God.

Third, no one but God has the right to determine and command what is mandatory in the house of God. Neither Moses or Solomon conceived, designed or made such things for the house of God. God alone has this authority.

God is eternal but it doesn’t necessarily follow that the first three commandments are eternal, especially the Second.

Absolutely irrational thinking. All three commandments are inseparably connected with each other. Even James recognizes this, that to violate one point is to violate all points and then he quotes part of the ten commandments (James 2:10-11) to demonstrate he has the ten commandments in view.

There is no need for the third commandment apart from the second as the bowing down and worshipping images is only possible if they are made in the first place. Making the images begins SPIRITUALLY with the a wrong CONCEPT of the true God. The true God CANNOT be truthfully conceived in a material form as God is INVISIBLE and UNIVERSAL.

That’s your idea and you’re entitled to it. But if Jesus appeared before you, He would probably scold you for being such a Pharisee. He would say something like, “Biblicist (or whatever your real name is), why are you castigating people for practices that honor me?”

Where do you get the idea that bowing down to a statue "honors God"???? Where in scripture do you find that rationale supported?????

What I find is that even when men bowed down to real angels they were rebuked (Rev. 19:11). When men bowed down to real apostles they were rebuked (Acts 14).

Where do you find anyone coming to the temple and bowing down to any of the furniture in the tabernacle/temple? Where do you find any child of God coming to the congregation and bowing down to anything in the congregation?

Anointing Christ with oil is a rediculous example to support bowing down to inanimate graven images! You claim to be a ordained deacon in a Southern Baptist church and are incapable of discerning something so simple and clearly wrong! In my congregation you would be put out of such an honorable office immediately.