Statues

[DHK]

But when a Catholic asks a saint to petition God on his behalf, he is hardly worshipping that saint - he is merely making a request,

Does this make it clear enough for you:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Moriah]

Sounds like the sin of pride to me since everyone here knows that what you claim is not possible...

Unless you are claiming to be more than human?

Do you worship while you sin?

Or are you claiming that you never sin?

You say it is prideful to think of Jesus all day. Whom else but a dense person and a slanderer can call someone prideful for thinking of the Lord all day.

 

[Moriah]

I am a Baptist that presently attends Grace Bible Church, Ev. Free. However, you have not answered my questions. Anyone reading my last posts will know you have evaded my questions. If you can't answer, no problem. However, you are also evading WestminsterMan's questions as well.

I do not care which church you go to, you defend the Catholics sin of bowing to the work of their hands, so you are guilty too.

I answered all your questions. I will answer again. Actors and ballet dancers bow to the audience in thanks for applauding. You are so worldly and sinful that you actually use the bowing of a ballet dancer to help your sinful cause.

I am not Japanese nor am I around royalty. I would not bow to these people. I am not even sure what their bowing to each other means. The custom for Americans is to shake hands. If they bow to each other out of respect, then fine. However, you defend bowing to the works of man’s hands. You defend bowing to statues! I gave you information from a Catholic site that says they COMMAND their priests to bow to the crucifix, and all images at the altar. I gave you scripture that God COMMANDS us not to do that. You are a willful sinner. You go against God and teach others it is okay.

The Bible also tells us, Christians, not to bow to each other or to the angels, BECAUSE WE ARE FELLOW SERVANTS OF THE LORD. Despite all that, you bring up Lot bowing with his face to the ground when he saw two angels of the Lord. You even bring up Abraham saying to his son Isaac may all nations bow to you as a defense for your sin. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, A SERVANT OF THE LORD, SO DO NOT DEFEND BOWING TO ANOTHER “CHRISTIAN.” Catholics bow to their Pope.

You, Sir, are not right.

 

[Zenas]

Your position is without any biblical support and it is contrary to common sense.

There is absolutely nothing more pure worship than prayer. Look at the model prayer. Notice that prayer directly addresses the Father and begins with adoration "hallowed be thy name." There is no other act whereby we come directly into the presence of God other than prayer. Prayer demands a submissive spirit whereby we pray "according to his will" - "thy will be done" and where we deal with the most intimate details of our life in his holy presence.

If you do not believe that prayer is the most sacred form of worship possible for mortal men on planet earth then you obviously have no spiritual relationship with God because there is nothing more spiritually initimate than prayer.

Like I said in my previous post. . . . "There is none so blind as he who will not see." Ray Stevens. However, if you will check there are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of times where someone in the Bible prays to someone else, e.g., "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this?" A prayer is a request, a petition. If you have ever been sued, and I hope you haven't, the last line in the complaint will say, "Wherefore, the plaintiff prays for judgment aganist the defendant . . . ."

 

[Walter]

Does this make it clear enough for you:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Catholic Church teaches there is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Christ, through his sacrifice on the cross merited for us all the graces that come from God. I read a Catholic explanation of the verse you gave: "Before Christ there was a great chasm between man and God. We stood on two different sides of the cliff, but when Christ sacrificed himself for us, he became that bridge, that mediator. When we pray for one another, or ask the saints to pray for us, its like we're holding hands with each other over that bridge of Christ. It's Christ alone that can be that bridge between man and God, but now that the bridge is built we can share in it."

 

[Walter]

Prayer CAN be worship, not all prayer IS worship. Simple as that. As Zenas said: "A prayer is a request, a petition."
That being said, I have decided to continue to study the Catholic faith not only by way of it's catechism and history but to also take the next RCIA course offered in my area which is starting soon. In the meantime, I will continue to read posts on Catholic related threads but not post on them until I learn more.

 

[The Biblicist]

Like I said in my previous post. . . . "There is none so blind as he who will not see." Ray Stevens.

What a truth you speak if only you could see it!

However, if you will check there are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of times where someone in the Bible prays to someone else, e.g., "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this?" A prayer is a request, a petition. If you have ever been sued, and I hope you haven't, the last line in the complaint will say, "Wherefore, the plaintiff prays for judgment aganist the defendant . . . ."

The term you choose to illustrate your theory is a common term that simply denotes a request. I don't know if you are capable of understanding this, but "requests" are but one aspect of prayer to God. Requests do not constitute the whole of prayer. Perhaps it might constitute what you do as prayer?

The Greek term that is used to characterize the whole act of prayer including its various aspects (such as making requests) is "proseuchomai" and that term is NEVER ONCE directed toward anyone but God with the exception of idolatry toward false gods.

One thing is clear, you seem to have no concept of what prayer is other than making requests. The command to "pray without ceasing" demands it is a state of mind that is in fellowship with God. Any saved person knows that prayer is hallowed ground where one comes before the glory of God by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more hallowed in the life of a Christian than the sacredness of prayer where man meets God in humility and utter prostration of spirit. If that is not your experience then you have never truly entered into prayer. Those without the Spirit of God cannot pray as true prayer is "in the Spirit" and I am not referring to speaking in tongues but rather submitting to the leadership of the Spirit in the glory of His holiness that is humbling and sacred. Nothing on earth is more pure worship than prayer. Nothing is more unknown to the lost religious man than the sared experience of prayer. Your argument is typical of the lost unregenerated religious man.

 

[DHK]

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